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[TheFLYINGManga_Ka]

So have the developer's claims that the 360 slowdown in review versions is fixed been verified, or was it just hot air/damage control?

I wonder if a patch is possible to fix these issues, like Darksiders' tearing problem was fixed.

 

[Victrix]

It's true, most of the time I don't really take note of it. I take note when it actually becomes noticeable and makes me go "oh my god," like when I was watching the 360 ver. stream yesterday. That, to me, was a horrible framerate drop. I found nothing like that, not even close, in the demo. It was low, but remained steady for me. So yeah, you're right-- this probably isn't the debate for me at all and I see the error of my ways. I'm no technical guru, I just know when something is bad or good enough for me personally and I do also want to note that I'm much bigger on texturing and overall picture quality (contrast, colors, etc.) than I am framerate. If a game has an incredibly high framerate but everything else sucks, I'm not a fan. But Castlevania, while not having a high framerate, excels in so many other ways that yeah, I don't really mind.

Please use paragraphs

That's an _entirely_ valid viewpoint.

You're only going to draw hatred when you start commenting on the facts of framerate without any knowledge of the subject - if you don't know, and you don't care, and it doesn't bother you, why go out of your way to antagonize people who do?

Fact: Higher framerates can have more responsive gameplay. If you want to understand more about why this matters, go read this excellent article on response times: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-lag-factor-article - and ever watched an EVO tournament? There were competitors complaining about the _video lag_ added from some of the televisions used. That's a tiny fraction of a tiny fraction of gamers, but everyone knows the KZ2 complaints about mushy controls, and this is one of the reasons why.

Fact: Higher framerates are visually smoother - this can only be accomplished at lower framerates through the use of motion blur, and that requires both a steady, locked framerate and the technical and artistic expertise to make sure it looks *good*

Fact: Lower framerates typically trade off framerate for a higher level of visual effects. This doesn't mean that 'all 60fps look worse' any more than it means 'all 30fps games look better', it just means that with limited hardware power, you have to choose what to focus on, and there will be tradeoffs.

There are a _host_ of related issues to fps problems including

Displayed resolution (MY GAME ISN'T 1080P???)

Field of view in FPS games, which has been constantly cut over the years (sometimes causing nausea, and if you want to hear angry howling, find a cross-platform title that doesn't allow PC users to set their fov)

VSync - often sacrificed on the altar of framerate. There's nothing more beautiful than a game locked at 60fps solid with Vsync on and no tearing whatsoever, but pulling that off is difficult. Even pulling off 30fps with a locked framerate is hard to do (played Glacier in Reach recently?). With Vsync on, you get full-scene framerate drop to a lower level if your framerate isn't locked, without it, you get nasty visual tearing.

Antialiasing - another victim, full scene AA isn't cheap, particularly on top of all the other effects that get piled onto games these days.

For you to say 'Framerate doesn't bother me, I think it looks great', that's totally cool, but to say 'Framerate doesn't bother me also games look more artistic/better/more movie like/cooler/special at 24 fps than 60 fps', that's pure bullshit.

*sigh*

Sorry for the derail again, this shit should go off on it's own thread. I just fucking hate the '30fps is ok' crew coming out of the woodwork every time gripes with a game's framerates come up. Most of the arguments 'for' 30fps (why the fuck are there ever arguments for 30fps) are backed up by a lot of 'I think, I feel, I'm ok with' and not a lot of 'Here's some actual reasons 30fps is superior!' (hint: It's not, ever. 30fps means you're accepting reduced framerate and responsiveness in exchange for more graphical effects, possibly at the cost of _other_ visual features).

... can it be Tuesday now? I'm sick at home and I'd like to play Castlevania

 

[TheThunder]

...

Sorry for the derail again, this shit should go off on it's own thread. I just fucking hate the '30fps is ok' crew coming out of the woodwork every time gripes with a game's framerates come up. Most of the arguments 'for' 30fps (why the fuck are there ever arguments for 30fps) are backed up by a lot of 'I think, I feel, I'm ok with' and not a lot of 'Here's some actual reasons 30fps is superior!' (hint: It's not, ever. 30fps means you're accepting reduced framerate and responsiveness in exchange for more graphical effects, possibly at the cost of _other_ visual features).

 

[Glix]

I learned the joy of 60fps with FZERO X.

Seriously, anyone in the 30fps is better crowd should go try it out.

 

[brandonh83]

You're only going to draw hatred when you start commenting on the facts of framerate without any knowledge of the subject - if you don't know, and you don't care, and it doesn't bother you, why go out of your way to antagonize people who do?

I didn't mean it in any sort of antagonizing fashion at all.

I think the best way I can put it is that, while playing the demo, the framerate seemed to suit the overall presentational style of the game.

If it were lower and choppier, that's when I'd have a problem with it.

That's about the most bare-bones explanation I can offer.

And I think it would be great at 60fps as well, both are fine to me, and I don't really have a preference unless it's a game that requires super-sensitivity like a FPS.

 

[charsace]

I went looking for nba 2k11 on friday and saturday and saw this game on shelves. Wish it was 2k out this early.

 

[Snapshot King]

I went looking for nba 2k11 on friday and saturday and saw this game on shelves. Wish it was 2k out this early.

Didn't get that get delayed till March??

Also, has it been confirmed that "the 360 review build hitches are fixed" comment is legit and not hot air?

 

[Feindflug]

I'm just saying that there is a reason that (sane) people don't complain when a game is 60fps. I don't think developers aim to hit 30 or lower since the PC versions of those games are uncapped most of the time. It's usually because they are trying to do more than the PS3 and 360 can handle and have to make compromises. They generally choose to make a nicer looking game and sacrifice performance, or in the case of Call of Duty, it's the other way around.

It's like saying the developers of Alan Wake or other sub-HD planned to make a blurry looking game. Or that tearing is part of the visual design (uh, other than Kane and Lynch 2).

I can live with lower frame rates of games like Assassin's Creed, Rockstar games, and now, Castlevania but my preferences is definitely having a smoother game. I will drop graphical settings on my PC if it isn't running smoothly. In games like Saints Row 2 on the 360, I will turn off vsync in favor of a better frame rate.

I believe that we don't have more 60fps games because devs just don't care about high frame-rates and don't bother with creating 60fps-centric engines this gen...the reduced number of custom created engines compared to last gen and the extensive use of UE3 are also part of the problem IMO.

Rage is an example of a 60fps centric multiplatform engine that looks way better than your average high-profile 30fps game...of course we're talking about Carmack here but I still believe that's all about priorities.

 

[Snapshot King]

I believe that we don't have more 60fps games because devs just don't care about high frame-rates and don't bother with creating 60fps-centric engines this gen...the reduced number of custom created engines compared to last gen and the extensive use of UE3 are also part of the problem IMO.

Rage is an example of a 60fps centric multiplatform engine that looks way better than your average high-profile 30fps game...of course we're talking about Carmack here but I still believe that's all about priorities.

But Carmack is magic =\

 

[jonremedy]

But Carmack is magic =\

Rage is a low-poly game with awesome textures. Nothing really magic about it. Sure, Carmack's megatextures is pretty cool, but that is basically all there is to Rage. Looks good though, and it achieves 60 fps, so I'll be happy.

 

[Solal]

I was really annoyed by the framerate of the demo too... It s so infuriating to see more and more devs who sacrifice smoothness for beauty.

Framerate should ALWAYS be number one priority. Always.

 

[Victrix]

Rage is a low-poly game with awesome textures. Nothing really magic about it. Sure, Carmack's megatextures is pretty cool, but that is basically all there is to Rage.

That about wraps it up for John Carmack

 

[Zzoram]

I was really annoyed by the framerate of the demo too... It s so infuriating to see more and more devs who sacrifice smoothness for beauty.

Framerate should ALWAYS be number one priority. Always.

The framerate problem is an issue of game reviewers giving way more points for extra visual effects instead of smooth framerate.

For action games, 60fps makes for a much better experience. I loved DMC4 for the smooth 60fps gameplay and I really hope DmC strives for 60fps. The fact that this game isn't 60fps suggests that Capcom is now open to 30fps, which is worrisome.

 

[CadetMahoney]

With dead rising 2 superior 360 version out of the way i'll get whichever version is best this time as a general rule of thumb.

 

[Volcynika]

The framerate problem is an issue of game reviewers giving way more points for extra visual effects instead of smooth framerate.

For action games, 60fps makes for a much better experience. I loved DMC4 for the smooth 60fps gameplay and I really hope DmC strives for 60fps. The fact that this game isn't 60fps suggests that Capcom is now open to 30fps, which is worrisome.

Ok the Capcom / Konami thing is silly at this point!

Spoiler

It's Mercury Steam developing and Konami publishing, but still!

 

[obonicus]

(hint: It's not, ever. 30fps means you're accepting reduced framerate and responsiveness in exchange for more graphical effects

Could you explain why this is an unacceptable compromise? If you think that extra eye-candy is worth it for the slow-ass games people make these days, why isn't that okay?

 

[jett]

The framerate problem is an issue of game reviewers giving way more points for extra visual effects instead of smooth framerate.

For action games, 60fps makes for a much better experience. I loved DMC4 for the smooth 60fps gameplay and I really hope DmC strives for 60fps. The fact that this game isn't 60fps suggests that Capcom is now open to 30fps, which is worrisome.

I think you should temper your expectations for DmC. You should start hoping for stable 30fps first.

 

[Zzoram]

Ok the Capcom / Konami thing is silly at this point!

Spoiler

It's Mercury Steam developing and Konami publishing, but still!

Sorry got confused.

 

[MoonsaultSlayer]

I need to ask why it can't be accepted that a 30fps game/scene CAN be used for atmospheric purposes by you so called "fps experts". Also... where does your knowledge come from and where do you apply it? Expert animators who are part of a 60fps or bust dev team? Seriously... what makes you think you have this all knowing knowledge in this department? Serious question, not trying to be a douche.

The day a dev team can replicate a moody atmosphere, showcase a giant beast that looks and feels like it has weight and appear cinematic all while running at 60fps.... I'd change my mind. Until then, 30 does this better for me. I may be remembering wrong but I think even DMC4 had a few 30fps scenes to purhaps lend a bit of *gasp* cinematic quality and weight to the onscreen action.

 

[Victrix]

horrible bullshit

I don't have the energy to make another big post

Instead, here is a picture of Conan. He and Crom both disapprove of you.

 

[Beth Cyra]

I need to ask why it can't be accepted that a 30fps game/scene CAN be used for atmospheric purposes by you so called "fps experts". Also... where does your knowledge come from and where do you apply it? Expert animators who are part of a 60fps or bust dev team? Seriously... what makes you think you have this all knowing knowledge in this department? Serious question, not trying to be a douche.

The day a dev team can replicate a moody atmosphere, showcase a giant beast that looks and feels like it has weight and appear cinematic all while running at 60fps.... I'd change my mind. Until then, 30 does this better for me. I may be remembering wrong but I think even DMC4 had a few 30fps scenes to purhaps lend a bit of *gasp* cinematic quality and weight to the onscreen action.

DMC 4 did that. It had huge areas that looked great and giant bosses that where crazy all with you tearing shit up at 60FPS.

It might not be a graphical power house any more but when it came out it looked great and it flowed like a dream.

 

[Amir0x]

the surest way to know someone has no idea what a framerate actually does is when they suggest that a "sense of weight" is exclusive to 30fps


jesus tap dancing christ

 

[Genesis Knight]

I need to ask why it can't be accepted that a 30fps game/scene CAN be used for atmospheric purposes by you so called "fps experts". Also... where does your knowledge come from and where do you apply it? Expert animators who are part of a 60fps or bust dev team? Seriously... what makes you think you have this all knowing knowledge in this department? Serious question, not trying to be a douche.

The day a dev team can replicate a moody atmosphere, showcase a giant beast that looks and feels like it has weight and appear cinematic all while running at 60fps.... I'd change my mind. Until then, 30 does this better for me. I may be remembering wrong but I think even DMC4 had a few 30fps scenes to purhaps lend a bit of *gasp* cinematic quality and weight to the onscreen action.

Pretty sure you need to a) give up and b) go play more games.

 

[owlbeak]

Can I just say, I like a STEADY 30fps over a 60fps game. To me, it's like the comparison between home video and 24fps found in movies.

But that's just me, and I fully understand the argument for 60fps. I don't really care either way, but I just prefer 30fps at this point as long as it is steady and never dips below 30.

 

[sn00zer]

Id rather have a strong visually designed game that goes at 30fps than one that has to cut corners in the graphics department to make it to 60....DMC and Bayonetta can get away with 60fps because they use arena style gameplay segments where each level is split into sequential rooms....while games like GOW3, Enslaved, Uncharted2, use much longer/ bigger "rooms" that have more art assets in them.
EDIT: btw waiting to get my hands on this game...im optimistic

 

[Phloxy]

Can we get to comparing the game versions instead of all this dumb frames per second talk. That should warrant it's own thread. I have the 360 version and the ps3 version and they are both the same frame-rate the demo is. So 24, locked, end of discussion. And yes, in some cutscenes, both versions dip.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

Can we get to comparing the game versions instead of all this dumb frames per second talk. That should warrant it's own thread. I have the 360 version and the ps3 version and they are both the same frame-rate the demo is. So 24, locked, end of discussion. And yes, in some cutscenes, both versions dip.

The framerate wasn't locked in the demo according to the eurogamer/digital foundry video. Is it locked in the retail build or is it the same as the demo?

 

[Alex]

Some of you folks trying to preach frame rate matters with no experience or technical knowhow realize just how stupid you sound, right? Some of these posts are Youtube Comments quality.

That aside, just how bad are the dips in this thing. It's not some mess like Borderlands on PS3 was, is it ? I'm not very kind to sub-20 FPS dips.

 

[Phloxy]

It's about the same. 360 version def has parts where you kill monsters and the game freezes for a sec. So David Cox was blowing smoke up some asses unless their is a day 1 patch or something. And it isn't locked per se but when it never really hits 30 does that even matter.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

Can we get to comparing the game versions instead of all this dumb frames per second talk. That should warrant it's own thread. I have the 360 version and the ps3 version and they are both the same frame-rate the demo is. So 24, locked, end of discussion. And yes, in some cutscenes, both versions dip.

This dude's right. Make with the comparing, take the framerate complaints to the OT.

 

[Alex]

Wow, I was half-joking when I used that comparison. That's brutal if that's the truth.

 

[Nelo Ice]

damn 24 fps doesnt sound too encouraging

thinkin about canceling my amazon order now

not much of a tech guy 24 fps is a pretty significant compromise and its hard not to notice an fps drop like that

 

[I NEED SCISSORS]

Is it really 24fps locked or are people just taking this 'cinematic framerate' bullshit too seriously? If so, pretty interesting - it's probably the only game this gen to lock it at anything other than 30/60.

 

[LowParry]

Is it really 24fps locked or are people just taking this 'cinematic framerate' bullshit too seriously? If so, pretty interesting - it's probably the only game this gen to lock it at anything other than 30/60.

Who knows. I just say pick up the game if you want it come Tues and enjoy the hell out of it.

 

[Phloxy]

It def doesn't hit 30 unless you are in a tiny room with nothing in it, but as soon as one enemy shows up it gets slower. and that is both versions. So yeah, don't go in expecting more, I reached Chapter 3 in both, and it never changed. Cept like I said the 360 version having that weird freeze frame when you kill enemies in some stages, really weird and annoying.

 

[FrostuTheNinja]

It def doesn't hit 30 unless you are in a tiny room with nothing in it, but as soon as one enemy shows up it gets slower. and that is both versions. So yeah, don't go in expecting more, I reached Chapter 3 in both, and it never changed. Cept like I said the 360 version having that weird freeze frame when you kill enemies in some stages, really weird and annoying.

So it's similar to Wind Waker without the orchestral stabs?

 

[Nelo Ice]

It def doesn't hit 30 unless you are in a tiny room with nothing in it, but as soon as one enemy shows up it gets slower. and that is both versions. So yeah, don't go in expecting more, I reached Chapter 3 in both, and it never changed. Cept like I said the 360 version having that weird freeze frame when you kill enemies in some stages, really weird and annoying.

well sounds like i should cancel and wait for a price drop like enslaved :lol

 

[LowParry]

well sounds like i should cancel and wait for a price drop like enslaved :lol

 

[Phloxy]

Mind you, I really like the game. Has a lot of depth to the combat which is nice. Environments remind me of LOTR while the creatures kinda give off a Guilermo Toro vibe. But it's fun, the music is fantastic, and the game itself plays well.

But yeah, to ignore the technical aspects is a no-go. Like, it is to the point where I wonder to myself when I'm playing, man, that part was sick, I wish it was running smoother. And when those thoughts creep in your mind as you are playing, it is never a good thing.

 

[Nelo Ice]

Mind you, I really like the game. Has a lot of depth to the combat which is nice. Environments remind me of LOTR while the creatures kinda give off a Guilermo Toro vibe. But it's fun, the music is fantastic, and the game itself plays well.

But yeah, to ignore the technical aspects is a no-go. Like, it is to the point where I wonder to myself when I'm playing, man, that part was sick, I wish it was running smoother. And when those thoughts creep in your mind as you are playing, it is never a good thing.

im guessing this cant be patched either

damn game is prolly good but fps along with tearing are the 2 tech aspects of a game that bother me

well i wouldnt be surprised to see a black friday sale for this anyway

 

[EricHasNoPull]

One thing I've never understood about "Not Sure If Serious?" Gifs is the fact that almost every Gif I've seen of this "meme" or whatever, none of them have the Question mark at the end of the sentence. Why is that?

Isn't the person asking a question with bad grammar?

It's asking "I'm not sure if you are serious?" or "Not sure if serious?"

I mean bad grammar or not; How lazy you have to be to not include the "?" at the end?

The whole thing is a question being asked isn't it? Without it it just doesn't work, not to me it doesn't.

Anyway sorry for being so random and off topic, just wondering that's all.

 

[eshwaaz]

It's about the same. 360 version def has parts where you kill monsters and the game freezes for a sec. So David Cox was blowing smoke up some asses unless their is a day 1 patch or something. And it isn't locked per se but when it never really hits 30 does that even matter.

Disappointing. Are you playing from the disc or installed?

 

[madmook]

One thing I've never understood about "Not Sure If Serious?" Gifs is the fact that almost every Gif I've seen of this "meme" or whatever, none of them have the Question mark at the end of the sentence. Why is that?

I've always read it as a statement or like DOT DOT DOT after it.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

One thing I've never understood about "Not Sure If Serious?" Gifs is the fact that almost every Gif I've seen of this "meme" or whatever, none of them have the Question mark at the end of the sentence. Why is that?

Isn't the person asking a question with bad grammar?

It's asking "I'm not sure if you are serious?" or "Not sure if serious?"

I mean bad grammar or not; How lazy you have to be to not include the "?" at the end?

The whole thing is a question being asked isn't it? Without it it just doesn't work, not to me it doesn't.

Anyway sorry for being so random and off topic, just wondering that's all.

It doesn't have to be a question. It could also be the statement "I'm not sure if you're serious."

 

[LowParry]

I've always read it as a statement or like DOT DOT DOT after it.

I think the expression of the .gif speaks in much louder volumes.

 

[Phloxy]

Playing 360 version with both discs installed. Tried it without it installed and on lower resolution and no difference.

 

[Square Triangle]

What would make someone cancel a pre-order over some frame rate issues?

What happened to wanting to play video games?

 

[Phloxy]

I don't know, maybe because for some people an uneven and low framerate is just as much a deterrent as shitty level design, or bad gameplay mechanics.

Like I said I'm still liking the game, enjoying it a lot, but as somebody who could give two shits about frame-rate it still was enough to bother me at points.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

What would make someone cancel a pre-order over some frame rate issues?

What happened to wanting to play video games?

Some people get physically ill from low framerates. Others get headaches. It's hard to enjoy playing a video game when it's making you feel like shit.

 

[Nelo Ice]

What would make someone cancel a pre-order over some frame rate issues?

What happened to wanting to play video games?

tech problems hamper enjoyment of playing video games?

i'll be waiting for a drop now im sure the game is good and enjoyable but 24 fps+freezes on the 360 version just screams wait for a price drop