Christianity [OT] The Word became flesh and dwelt among us

Nov 14, 2017
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#1
This is better suited for Off-Topic Community since it's not framed as a discussion thread open to multiple viewpoints. We're going to let it float for a while in Off-Topic to get initial visibility at least. Main off-topic threads are for open debate etc
In this thread we discuss the world's greatest religion, Christianity. The Christian Bible is the most printed, read and studied book in human history. Today approximately 1 in 3 people globally are Christians, recognizing the historical Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah, the Christ, the divine Son of God.


(Gustave Dore, Triumph of Christianity)

An almost limitless number of topics in theology, philosophy, politics, history, art, etc., are of interest to the student of Christianity. And so, this thread is open for any and all of these relevant discussions.

As a sample and summary of historic Christian doctrine, here below is the ancient and revered Nicene Creed:

I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven, and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets. I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.

A good resource for studying the scriptures in various translations: https://www.biblegateway.com/

The Catechism of the Catholic Church: http://ccc.usccb.org/flipbooks/catechism/index.html

I close with the "prayer before study" from the pen of the great Saint Thomas Aquinas:

Ineffable Creator,
Who, from the treasures of Your wisdom,
have established three hierarchies of angels,
have arrayed them in marvelous order
above the fiery heavens,
and have marshaled the regions
of the universe with such artful skill,


You are proclaimed
the true font of light and wisdom,
and the primal origin
raised high beyond all things.


Pour forth a ray of Your brightness
into the darkened places of my mind;
disperse from my soul
the twofold darkness
into which I was born:
sin and ignorance.


You make eloquent the tongues of infants.
refine my speech
and pour forth upon my lips
The goodness of Your blessing.


Grant to me
keenness of mind,
capacity to remember,
skill in learning,
subtlety to interpret,
and eloquence in speech.


May You
guide the beginning of my work,
direct its progress,
and bring it to completion.


You Who are true God and true Man,
who live and reign, world without end.


Amen.
 
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#2
Can I make a special request to our atheist posters? I welcome you here to debate these supremely important ideas. But please don't deliberately fill this thread with needless mean-spirited blasphemy or sacrilege as a means to insult believers. I only politely ask, you are of course free to act as you wish according to the rules of the forum.
 
Jan 31, 2018
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#3
Good job! May I also ask that members both Christian and not be open minded and on the Christian side pray for discernment about things that may come up in this thread. I myself have been studying many of the books outside of what we deem cannon as the 66 and I’d say they are for the most part definitely worth reading.
 
Feb 3, 2018
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#5
Nice OP and picture. I'm reading the Bible again, its been like 15 years. I want to read through it then listen to Jordan Peterson's ideas on the meanings of some stories. Should be an interesting experiment.

Edit: The Serenity prayer saved my life. Got it tattooed on my inner arm as a permanent reminder...

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.
 
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#7
I'm a Roman Catholic convert from Protestantism. As a Protestant I was into reformed theology and considered myself something of a Calvinist. What does "AMA" mean?
AMA means 'Ask me anything"

I consider myself Reformed Baptist.

So what was your upbringing, and what made you convert to Catholicism?
 
Mar 12, 2011
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#8
Why would you want atheists in this thread, are you going to show proof that Angels exist? I’d suggest just keeping things here with your fellow Christians so you can dive deep into your subject matter without getting into the same tired arguments theist and atheist present to each other.
 
Likes: Yakuzakazuya
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#9
Proof of angels isn’t really necessary. Thought provoking discussion would be enough for some I’d think. Many atheist out put their faith in science and things taught by the world. A big issue in the world right now is global warming and humans are constantly guilted even though the vast majority don’t build any of the things that cause it. I came across this passage in the book of Enoch which I believe relates to global warming perfectly. I believe the day of the sinner equates to the last days and the sun getting brighter equates to hotter. In the book of Genesis, God places the sun in the sky to rule the day, the moon to rule the night. There are times now, today being one of them when the moon is out super early afternoon or even in the morning. That fits the altering her order and not appearing at her time part.

And in the days of the sinners the years shall be shortened,

And their seed shall be tardy on their lands and fields,

And all things on the earth shall alter,

And shall not appear in their time:

And the rain shall be kept back

And the heaven shall withhold (it).

3 And in those times the fruits of the earth shall be backward,

And shall not grow in their time,

And the fruits of the trees shall be withheld in their time.

4 And the moon shall alter her order,

And not appear at her time.

5And in those days the sun shall be seen and he shall journey in the evening on the extremity of the great chariot in the west

And shall shine more brightly than accords with the order of light.

6 And many chiefs of the stars shall transgress the order (prescribed).

And these shall alter their orbits and tasks,

And not appear at the seasons prescribed to them.

7 And the whole order of the stars shall be concealed from the sinners,


And the thoughts of those on the earth shall err concerning them,


And they shall be altered from all their ways,


Yea, they shall err and take them to be gods.


8 And evil shall be multiplied upon them,


And punishment shall come upon them So as to destroy all.
 
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Why would you want atheists in this thread
No thread is a sacred garden where only positive things about the thing you like can only be said. If you want a proper discussion, expect various opinions and ideologies regardless of position. If shit starts getting thrown, tell a mod, thats what thyre here for.

Im atheist and had no intention to start shit or argue the existence or lack there of of any supernatural being before i read this comment.
 
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#12
Proof of angels isn’t really necessary. Thought provoking discussion would be enough for some I’d think. Many atheist out put their faith in science and things taught by the world. A big issue in the world right now is global warming and humans are constantly guilted even though the vast majority don’t build any of the things that cause it. I came across this passage in the book of Enoch which I believe relates to global warming perfectly. I believe the day of the sinner equates to the last days and the sun getting brighter equates to hotter. In the book of Genesis, God places the sun in the sky to rule the day, the moon to rule the night. There are times now, today being one of them when the moon is out super early afternoon or even in the morning. That fits the altering her order and not appearing at her time part.
That just seems something that one Christian would tell another Christian to have a faith based reason to believe in global warming. Not sure what a atheist is supposed to take away from that.

It talks about a shift in the moon,stars realigning , does that mean global warming will cause it? I seriously doubt that or that was your intent. It just seems you are reading some doomsday passage and trying to flimsily connect it to current day issues. What would you want atheist to take away from that passage?
 
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#13
Why would you want atheists in this thread, are you going to show proof that Angels exist? I’d suggest just keeping things here with your fellow Christians so you can dive deep into your subject matter without getting into the same tired arguments theist and atheist present to each other.
But it's so fun to discuss things with believers and making them all fall into the circular reasoning falacy :_

Many atheist out put their faith in science and things taught by the world
That's actually wrong. Faith implies there's no WAY to support a belief but you YET believe that because of FAITH. Science by definition has a process that EVERYBODY can find, read, learn about it and try if they want and prove it right. Don't even try to compare science to beliefs or faith, that's literally insulting people like me that are dedicated to science and have studied a lot and work very hard every day. For me to demonstrate that X is right maybe I have to expent 2-3 years of researching, studying and testing while others just say "god made it".
 
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#14
That just seems something that one Christian would tell another Christian to have a faith based reason to believe in global warming. Not sure what a atheist is supposed to take away from that.

It talks about a shift in the moon,stars realigning , does that mean global warming will cause it? I seriously doubt that or that was your intent. It just seems you are reading some doomsday passage and trying to flimsily connect it to current day issues. What would you want atheist to take away from that passage?
Not sure what passage you read but you may want to read it again. The book of Enoch also has a verse that states that it would pertain to a remote generation meaning far from when it was written.
 
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Not sure what passage you read but you may want to read it again. The book of Enoch also has a verse that states that it would pertain to a remote generation meaning far from when it was written.
I read it. If you don’t understand what I meant it’s no big deal. My overall point is that that the passage you quoted is vaguely worded enough to encourage tons of speculation. If that type of speculation is considered thought provoking to you it’s fine, it’s not my thing.
 
Likes: Yakuzakazuya
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#17
But it's so fun to discuss things with believers and making them all fall into the circular reasoning falacy :_



That's actually wrong. Faith implies there's no WAY to support a belief but you YET believe that because of FAITH. Science by definition has a process that EVERYBODY can find, read, learn about it and try if they want and prove it right. Don't even try to compare science to beliefs or faith, that's literally insulting people like me that are dedicated to science and have studied a lot and work very hard every day. For me to demonstrate that X is right maybe I have to expent 2-3 years of researching, studying and testing while others just say "god made it".
The thing is it’s not true that EVERYBODY can observe and examine the “truths” that science puts out there. You’d be saying that any one of us can hop in a rocket, fly to some far corner of the galaxy with drills and chisels, mine a few specimen and bring them back here to test. Faith in man’s theories and observations become no different than having faith in God. I’d actually say it’s worse considering pretty much everything that’s not observed here on the planet we live on literally CANT be tested by anyone outside of the scientists and astrologers that make certain claims about space.
 
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Faith in man’s theories and observations become no different than having faith in God.
There's no faith involved when you have data, calculations, tests, and hundreds of hours of work you can search and read. The fact that you don't understand the process involved, the data, the calculations, the formulas, the big etc behind it doesn't make it a work of faith. It's a work of faith for you. because you don't and don't want to understand.

I’d actually say it’s worse considering pretty much everything that’s not observed here on the planet we live on literally CANT be tested by anyone outside of the scientists and astrologers that make certain claims about space.
Well you can, you only have to study enough to understand what those scientist said and make the calculations yourself. What's stopping you?


Also, just in case: THEORY IN SCIENCE =/= THEORY IN COLOQUIAL WAY

Because I know you or somebody else will end falling again for that and even dare to say gravity does not exist because "it's a theory".
 
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#19
I don’t believe in celestial deities. Higher power would be beyond our understanding anyway. I think if religion helps you that’s great, but let it help you. Stop trying to impose your beliefs on others and we good. It’s not like I don’t understand the appeal of having every answer, it’s very comforting. I prefer to walk my own path as an evolved primate and observe the natural world, learning and observing throughout my life.
 
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#20
I think it was Einstein who said the only difference between the geocentric model and heliocentric model was in the way you applied the math or something but he was saying that either one could be true depending on perception. How are any of us to know which is true if only a tiny amount of people ever even go into space? How many people have dwelled on this planet since it began? Billions. How many people have travelled outside of earths orbit? Not to other planets, not even far out into the stars. Basically tooled around in what you could call earths backyard? Less than 600. Do you realize how ridiculous of a sample size that is to put any faith in?

On my very own journey with faith and belief I’ve looked into many of the other religions. While we are here on earth we have that opportunity. Even though you say you can learn about things pertaining to science, what difference does it make if at the higher levels things largely remain the same as not many things are challenged within the scientific community? If by chance I did all the study required to sit among a peer group of scientists, and I decided to bring scripture to the table for consideration, what do you think the reaction would be?
 
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@AngularSaxophone, I find your extreme skepticism of science to be, bluntly, naive. Just as many other doctrines you embrace fall outside of Christian orthodoxy, you seem to be off on this score as well, stemming from what I'd guess is an anti-intellectual tradition married to a rigidly fundamentalist interpretation of Genesis.

As a Catholic I joyfully embrace scientific achievement and see a friendship and harmony between faith and science. After all, many of the greatest scientists themselves were Christian theists. I see science as natural revelation whereby man can unlock the great mysteries of the creation of the Creator.
 
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#24
Here is a link to the entire debate between famous atheist member of "The Four Horsemen," Christopher Hitchens, and Protestant philosopher William Lane Craig.

 
Jan 31, 2018
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@AngularSaxophone, I find your extreme skepticism of science to be, bluntly, naive. Just as many other doctrines you embrace fall outside of Christian orthodoxy, you seem to be off on this score as well, stemming from what I'd guess is an anti-intellectual tradition married to a rigidly fundamentalist interpretation of Genesis.

As a Catholic I joyfully embrace scientific achievement and see a friendship and harmony between faith and science. After all, many of the greatest scientists themselves were Christian theists. I see science as natural revelation whereby man can unlock the great mysteries of the creation of the Creator.
Where do your views fall on something like abortion that science has enabled to make a fairly simple process? What about getting things completely wrong? Like how when we were in elementary school, the core of the earth was said to be magma and now it’s solid iron or nickel? Evolution COMPLETELY going against scripture?

I’m all for science when it’s true science where things can be tested , handled and observed. That makes perfect sense as it’s the nature of discovery. But when it comes to things that scripture says is one way and when explained scientifically there is literally no way of putting my own hands on it and testing it, sorry no. God asks us to do that with faith in HIM. I’m not putting the same level of faith in man especially when God has given answers to the things science tries to answer already. Can’t even cure human ills here on earth yet we can somehow tell what’s deep underground on planets light years away without ever stepping foot there. Sorry but I just view things different when it comes to putting faith in man. Especially when the bulk of the teachings lead people away from having faith in God.
 
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#28
I just find that 99% of faithless modernists are looking for a way out of moral judgment, about themselves or others, because it makes their lives easier. A lot of them don't realize it, and claim to be using "reason." But isn't it amazing, just like the heretic Luther, that the conclusions their "interpretations" lead them to always justify their hedonism.

Modern man believes he should never be told "no," particularly about sexual behavior. It is the strongest tool in the Devil's toolbox.
 
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#29
A Lutheran here.

just like the heretic Luther, that the conclusions their "interpretations" lead them to always justify their hedonism.
Uh-oh... :oops:

I'm a Lutheran because that's where I was baptized into, as Evangelical Lutheran Church is the national church of Finland. I don't really hold onto any certain denominations though. If I would make some online test about it I would probably fall into some Molinist or Arminian category but I'm not calling myself any of those. I am still a member of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland though and I have no intention of leaving it.

I agree with appaws in that not only Lutherans but also people of other denominations along with the faithless are interpreting things to justify their hedonism. Or our hedonism. I can't exclude myself out of that group without coming up as a liar. However, I think no-one can really go and say their church is better than the others in this aspect. You will find hedonists and people struggling to keep or even find the correct way to live in every single church there is.

I don't think churches themselves are to blame for people falling out of old traditions and seeking joy from incorrect things. It's the leaders of the church and the individuals in the churches themselves who fall under the pressure of society and slowly rot the whole thing down. The destruction of the churches come from inside with the influence from outside.

This may come as a shock to people here - and will probably make others want to call me a heretic - but I have lived with my girlfriend for 14,5 years now and I'm still not married to her. Couples living together without being married has been a thing that has not been questioned at all for the whole time I have been alive. One could say this shows the heresy of Lutheranism, but here is absolutely nothing that says this behaviour is acceptable for Lutherans. It hasn't been like this until just some decades ago. People and the church used to be way more strict about it, but the society's influence has been so bad and the leaders and the people in the church have been so weak that slowly we have begun to take things like that for granted, and I'm of course part of the problem. I remember a time when there was huge pressure to even deny the existence of Hell! There even were big news of a priest who dared to preach about Hell's existence. While I wasn't that much of a believer back then I remember that's the first time I saw there is something wrong with how society deals with religion and how religions bend when the media and society tells them to bend.

It is amazingly hard to shake off societal beliefs you were grown with - and I've actually just in the past 1-2 years started to really think of the importance of marriage and that maybe it should be necessary for me and my girlfriend. For me personally the reasons for not getting married have been 1) easy living, 2) I once thought marriage is a dead concept because of how I've been seeing it work around the country, and 3) I hate being the center of a party and become amazingly anxious in situations like that and I'm totally afraid to be in a big ceremony like that.
While the number 2 isn't an issue to me anymore, I'm still really lazy and indulgent person and I'm still way too scared of a social situation like that. However, I think it's possible to get married with very little fanfare by just having a priest and a couple of witnesses. That could be an option. In the past few months I've been thinking about that even more and what has shaken me lately was that one night I prayed to get an answer for this - a few days later my mom called me and mentioned that she saw a dream where I had made a beautiful ring I was supposed to give to someone. She had connected the dream to another thing not related to marriage at all and had been thinking she should mention it to me, but I surely made that connection instantly and was speechless for a while. Not only it was an odd coincidence in itself but she had dreamt it the night I had prayed :eek:

Anyway, in short, I'm less of a sinner in some issues, more of a sinner in others, but a sinner nevertheless.
Trying to be better but see myself falling short each day. Currently struggling with a few hard issues and making a bit of progress each day.
Clinging out for the hope that should I fail with some of the issues, I still have my redeemer to get me back up again - and eventually when I die, he would forgive me for things that shouldn't deserve forgiveness.
 
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#30
I just find that 99% of faithless modernists are looking for a way out of moral judgment, about themselves or others, because it makes their lives easier. A lot of them don't realize it, and claim to be using "reason." But isn't it amazing, just like the heretic Luther, that the conclusions their "interpretations" lead them to always justify their hedonism.

Modern man believes he should never be told "no," particularly about sexual behavior. It is the strongest tool in the Devil's toolbox.
It's not a Christian thread without some braindead nut job talking about dem atheists going to hell....
 
Sep 25, 2015
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#32
Not one page in and we've gone from 'please be civil' to people blatantly flaunting their intention to bait and cranking up their font size to make a point. My condolences OP.

Atheist here, and while I may not believe, it's interesting to see a thread where I could learn more about some of the lore and views that form the basis of christian belief.

I do perhaps take issue with using "the world's greatest religion" as an opener though. While I don't dispute anybody's right to hold it as a view, it has the potential to put people's guard up before they even finish taking in the premise of the thread, and lays the groundwork for arguments over which faith is biggest or best when there are more worthwhile discussions to be had on the topic.
 
Likes: Sàmban
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#33
Well, that sorta makes sense right? That is what all Christians believe.

Also, if you disagree with something discuss it...don't call names.
What is there to discuss, and would it be worth discussing with you?

::sigh:: First of all, not all Christians believe this. And those that do believe are, well, evil. Not sure what else to call someone who knowingly worships a megalomaniac deity who promises to send anyone who has the audacity not to worship him into an everlasting eternity of torture.

Thankfully, it's just a bunch of iron age, sheep herder fairytales.
 
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#34
And those that do believe are, well, evil.
What is evil? We're all just star dust. The atoms in our body are billions of year old, and are the remnants of stars. In the universal scale, our lives are so insignificant. So who's really wrong and who's right. What's really good and what's evil?
 
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I used to be a Christian (Roman Catholic to be specific) but slowly grew into weak atheism. There were just too many glaring holes into the stories and teachings as I understood them.

Currently I don’t believe in any god as defined by any book/teaching. I don’t discount the idea of a god. I just think if there was a god, he/she/it would be so incomprehensible to us that we wouldn’t even know it, so this is practically the same as not believing in one.

Out of curiosity, I have some questions for believers itt (these are some of the questions I struggled with and eventually became an atheist once I found my own answers)

What makes you so sure that you picked the right religion and the right subset of that religion?

The story of Adam and Eve has a lot interesting conclusions. They were supposedly created in god’s image, with no knowledge of good or evil. Yet, both were tricked to sin by the devil (remember, they had no knowledge of good/evil and were in god’s image). Why did an omnipotent being choose to let the devil near the social equivalent of naive children? Either god is an asshole or this is all part of his plan. The various acts of prophecy throughout the Bible suggests the latter. If so, then it suggests life is predetermined and there is no free will. So what’s the point?

Why did god have a chosen people? Doesn’t that seem a bit petty for an omnipotent being? Clearly this was not what god ultimately wanted as Jesus would later come and change that.

Why was there an Old Testament and then a New Testament with a pretty drastic change in tone and laws? However you spin it, it implies something changed which then implies god has limits and is not omnipotent. Heck, the very existence of Jesus implies that god has limits (he wouldn’t need Jesus to save man; he should have had the foresight to create a “Jesus mechanism” from the start of creation).

I’m sure some of you must have thought about these things so I’d be happy to hear your thoughts on these Christian Gaf.

Telling someone they're going to hell is no worse than being obnoxiously condescending and saying they believe in some "dumb, Iron Age fairytale".
To be fair, appaws is the one who opened that can of worms. “Heretic Luther...” Seriosuly chill out. Absolutely no need to shitpost with that kind of dumb, divisive fanaticism.
 
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#37
Telling someone they're going to hell is no worse than being obnoxiously condescending and saying they believe in some "dumb, Iron Age fairytale".
Dude clearly started by poisoning the well. But I wager you wouldn't think so....

Also saying someone is going to spend eternity burning in hell is in NO WAY WHATSOEVER equal to being condescending. The only person being obnoxious here is that guy.
 
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I just find that 99% of faithless modernists are looking for a way out of moral judgment, about themselves or others, because it makes their lives easier.
TL;DR "These dirty tramps feel so guilty about being whores and bastards that they have to claim there is no God so they don't feel bad about all that sinning"

I constantly hear from believers, "you can't have any morals worth God", but then I see weird reasoning like this that basically says "they feel so guilty for being heathens that they posture there isn't a God so they don't have to feel guilty". Please, correct me if I'm not presenting your argument correctly.

If they are unable to have morals (because we're faithless modernists) why would they feel bad about sinning? Would they even know they were sinning? Or do you admit one can have a sense of right and wrong, without God or any deity?
 
Jun 25, 2015
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#39
Not sure what else to call someone who knowingly worships a megalomaniac deity who promises to send anyone who has the audacity not to worship him into an everlasting eternity of torture.
I personally think that's as natural as magnet polarities attracting and repelling each other. If you are not "in tune" with God by whatever means are possible to be that way, it's only natural that you will not be with God when that time comes.
 
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#41
What is there to discuss, and would it be worth discussing with you?

::sigh:: First of all, not all Christians believe this. And those that do believe are, well, evil. Not sure what else to call someone who knowingly worships a megalomaniac deity who promises to send anyone who has the audacity not to worship him into an everlasting eternity of torture.

Thankfully, it's just a bunch of iron age, sheep herder fairytales.
Yes they do. It is an article of faith of Christianity that Christ is the way to salvation. All other paths lead to Hell. Modernists and universalists claiming to be Christian but picking and choosing among Christ's teachings based on the ideologies of modern man are not actually Christians. They may be well-intentioned, but they are in error.

Also, I always have noticed in these threads that the nasty name calling comes from the so called "open minded" side.

Dude clearly started by poisoning the well. But I wager you wouldn't think so....

Also saying someone is going to spend eternity burning in hell is in NO WAY WHATSOEVER equal to being condescending. The only person being obnoxious here is that guy.
I believe in orthodox (small o) Christian teaching. Is being an orthodox Christian obnoxious in a CHRISTIAN THREAD?
 
Jan 22, 2015
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#42
The problem with the argument from morality is that it might give peace of mind to Christians looking to dismiss atheists, but it raises the awkwardness of the complimentary position that's required. As an atheist, it would be terrifying to me to think there are Christians who would murder, rape, and pillage and the only thing holding them back is their concern for eternal damnation. Now let me be clear: I don't believe this, and my observation is that Christians are morally unremarkable (that is not intended to be an insult - just a statement that a lot of their moral convictions are not unique to Christianity; i.e., don't kill, don't steal, etc.). However, it stands to reason that if someone truly believes there is no morality without God, then it's fair game to assess that that person also believes they are incapable of morality without God. Thus, it ends up being an argument that says more about the person proposing it (in this example, the Christian) than it does about the target (in this example, the atheist). I would encourage people not to rely on it too strongly as a 'gotcha'

I can understand having ethical beliefs that are motivated by Christian faith, but to dismiss the non-religious as incapable of having ethical convictions doesn't come off as a well thought out position. It would be more productive to point out why you think specific ethical convictions are unfounded, rather than simply outright dismiss entire systems of thought. It just comes off as intellectually lazy.
 
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Taylorsville, Ky!
#43
The problem with the argument from morality is that it might give peace of mind to Christians looking to dismiss atheists, but it raises the awkwardness of the complimentary position that's required. As an atheist, it would be terrifying to me to think there are Christians who would murder, rape, and pillage and the only thing holding them back is their concern for eternal damnation. Now let me be clear: I don't believe this, and my observation is that Christians are morally unremarkable (that is not intended to be an insult - just a statement that a lot of their moral convictions are not unique to Christianity; i.e., don't kill, don't steal, etc.). However, it stands to reason that if someone truly believes there is no morality without God, then it's fair game to assess that that person also believes they are incapable of morality without God. Thus, it ends up being an argument that says more about the person proposing it (in this example, the Christian) than it does about the target (in this example, the atheist). I would encourage people not to rely on it too strongly as a 'gotcha'

I can understand having ethical beliefs that are motivated by Christian faith, but to dismiss the non-religious as incapable of having ethical convictions doesn't come off as a well thought out position. It would be more productive to point out why you think specific ethical convictions are unfounded, rather than simply outright dismiss entire systems of thought. It just comes off as intellectually lazy.
The question is not whether there IS morality without God. And it is also not whether non-believers are capable of moral and ethical behaviour. Clearly the answer is yes. The question we ask is whether there is any transcendent foundation for that morality. In a Godless universe, the answer must be no. It strikes me that human beings (religious or not) are very situational with their ideas of right and wrong, and unfortunately those ideas of right and wrong are very often momentary and molded by self-interest.
 
Nov 3, 2013
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#44
The question we ask is whether there is any transcendent foundation for that morality.
No and we don't need that. Common sense, empathy and "don't do to the others what I don't want them to do to me" is all what you need.

Btw not even the bible is clear with that morality when in one chapter it clearly says "don't kill" and on others it tells the believer to kill people throwing rocks at them if they work on Sunday or if a woman comited adultery.
 
Jan 31, 2018
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#47
First off I’m not your judge. 2nd off, Christ came to bear the sins of the world. Although we aren’t to sin we have grace. Saturday would be the busiest day at my job but I actually do take it off as a sabbath as I owe it to God for not killing me when I surely deserve it. He’s merciful.
 
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Nov 14, 2017
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#48
Guys, I think the argument from morals is very misunderstood here. Please watch this short video for a better understanding of what Christians are getting at.

 
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Nov 14, 2017
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#49
There is a lot of misrepresenting of the Christian position here on ethics. A few points:

- Christians do not say that atheists cannot be morally decent people. (However, by definition they break the greatest moral command, which Jesus said was, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind." And like all of us, atheists are sinners to greater and lesser degrees, depending on the individual, and will be judged accordingly.)

- Christians do not say that atheists cannot know the moral law. (Quite the contrary, Christian scripture says that God's moral law is inscribed on our hearts. Romans 2:15 reads, "They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness". [The passage is talking about Gentiles without the OT Jewish law, but the principle applies here.])

- Christians do not say the only reason we strive to be good is because we fear Hell and desire heavenly reward. While both those desires are totally rational, we also, of course, love people and our God. Actually Christians cannot separate desiring the reward of Heaven and love of God because the reward of Heaven is love. "God is love," and He is our reward, when at the beatific vision we finally behold His face and our wills are united with His and we share in the divine life forever.
 
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Likes: appaws
Feb 21, 2014
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#50
I used to be a Christian (Roman Catholic to be specific) but slowly grew into weak atheism. There were just too many glaring holes into the stories and teachings as I understood them.

Currently I don’t believe in any god as defined by any book/teaching. I don’t discount the idea of a god. I just think if there was a god, he/she/it would be so incomprehensible to us that we wouldn’t even know it, so this is practically the same as not believing in one.

Out of curiosity, I have some questions for believers itt (these are some of the questions I struggled with and eventually became an atheist once I found my own answers)

What makes you so sure that you picked the right religion and the right subset of that religion?

The story of Adam and Eve has a lot interesting conclusions. They were supposedly created in god’s image, with no knowledge of good or evil. Yet, both were tricked to sin by the devil (remember, they had no knowledge of good/evil and were in god’s image). Why did an omnipotent being choose to let the devil near the social equivalent of naive children? Either god is an asshole or this is all part of his plan. The various acts of prophecy throughout the Bible suggests the latter. If so, then it suggests life is predetermined and there is no free will. So what’s the point?

Why did god have a chosen people? Doesn’t that seem a bit petty for an omnipotent being? Clearly this was not what god ultimately wanted as Jesus would later come and change that.

Why was there an Old Testament and then a New Testament with a pretty drastic change in tone and laws? However you spin it, it implies something changed which then implies god has limits and is not omnipotent. Heck, the very existence of Jesus implies that god has limits (he wouldn’t need Jesus to save man; he should have had the foresight to create a “Jesus mechanism” from the start of creation).

I’m sure some of you must have thought about these things so I’d be happy to hear your thoughts on these Christian Gaf.


To be fair, appaws is the one who opened that can of worms. “Heretic Luther...” Seriosuly chill out. Absolutely no need to shitpost with that kind of dumb, divisive fanaticism.
Still no answers to these Christian Gaf?Was looking forward to it...I’m a bit disappointed