It's crazy to me how many people still miss the point of Kylo Ren
Wait
They had no chemistry?
Wait
They had no chemistry?
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Colin Trevorrow Exits Episode 9
- Thread starter ryan299
- Start date
It applies in the sense that WB will allow directors who have made them big money to do a passion project or two.
Disney will not, unless said passion project is a MCU film, a Star Wars film, or one of their fairy tale remakes. All of which come with an extra helping of production oversight.
Fluffernutter Pancake
Member
There's a difference between a twist and a reveal.
A twist is when one is lead to believe one thing "Vader killed Luke's Father", "I'm investigating a kid who sees dead people" and then near the end, the twist is something completely different from that "Vader is Luke's Father", "I'm really dead too".
A reveal is just when something that hasn't been shown to that point is finally unveiled. It's not a twist to save Kylo's true identity until that moment ---- it's just building up the audience's curiosity to the maximum to achieve greatest effect.
That sort of a relationship deserves that treatment, IMO, instead of the casual way that Snoke dropped it so early in the film. And yes, if I were on the script-writing team, I would have advocated for a full script revision to accommodate such a buildup and reveal, even if it meant scrapping most of the existing plot.
Bobo Dakes
Member
None of those family scenes needed "shock value".
The best part about the catwalk scene is that you did see it coming, it gave you a chance to process it and dread the big moment and when it happens holy shit did it sting. I didn't need to be surprised for that scene to have any impact.
Watching that scene was like.
"Oh shit, this is gonna be an interesting confrontation".
"Oh wow, he's really far on that cat walk".
"I don't think Han is making it out of this one".
"Oh shit, they're really about to do this."
"Oh fuck, they actually did it."
"Okay ... he is definitely coming back from that."
"Fuck you Kylo."
The best part about the catwalk scene is that you did see it coming, it gave you a chance to process it and dread the big moment and when it happens holy shit did it sting. I didn't need to be surprised for that scene to have any impact.
Watching that scene was like.
"Oh shit, this is gonna be an interesting confrontation".
"Oh wow, he's really far on that cat walk".
"I don't think Han is making it out of this one".
"Oh shit, they're really about to do this."
"Oh fuck, they actually did it."
"Okay ... he is definitely coming back from that."
"Fuck you Kylo."
jack_package_200
Banned
VII is just a remake of IV SHUT UP
I don't understand how people didn't understand Kylo Ren. Its a pretty simple character. His failure to be badass is central to his character.
Yup, and the point wasn't to surprise you. It was to leaving you hanging there.. waiting for the inevitable to happen.
Bubble Walrus
Member
SuperEpicMan
Banned
Inferno313
Banned
"How can he be a convincing villain? He's just like me!"
Yeah, what made the Han/Ben scene work was that the entire time there was an overhanging sense of dread, because pretty much everyone knew they were watching Han walk to his death. The moment Leia went "there's still good in him" in my head I immediately went "fuck, Han is going to die" and I was dreading the moment as everything kept building towards it.
Plus, knowing that Ford wanted the character dead at least two times prior during the OT made me think Han was biting it.
You'd be throwing out all the interesting family drama build-up: Han and Leia talking to each other, Kylo talking to his dead grandfather, Rey pointing out Kylo's insecurities concerning his relationship to his family (instead of not being the baddest dark side dude or some other such power-level nonsense), the added weight of Kylo's betrayal of Luke, etc. for a one time "GASP the bad guy is Han and Leia's kid?! ZOMG" reveal.
Ok
Yup. I mean the way it's framed and shot.. was deliberate. Once he sees Kylo (before he even walks out), you know he's making his last decision.
I thought it was actually one of the best scenes Abrams has directed
Fluffernutter Pancake
Member
This idea requires an extreme makeover and maybe even scrapping of much of the existing script. You can't do the reveal that way and keep most everything else the same way ---- of course that wouldn't work.
Building the plot around such a reveal, as David Lynch built his entire Season 3 around the very last scene of the show (which was the very first scene he shot, prior to writing most of the script), would have yielded maximum emotional payoff for the audience.
The shot of the sunlight exiting the room as the sun outside starts to lose its brightness was a little on the nose but man, it added so much
I don't think that much of a rework would have even been worth it.
One of my favorite moments. That scene doesn't get enough credit
So much visual storytelling in TFA got overlooked (less obvious examples as well)
DoctorFling
Member
The problem is that people bitch about Star Wars repeating itself too much but when the villain isn't just a Darth Vader clone they whine twice as much. It's a lose-lose situation.
This isn't part of my script.Inside Poe Dameron
A Star Wars Story
Or IS IT?
Due to rejection of Finn, Poe turns to heroin.
Exactly.
We are not Groot, we are Kylo-Ren.
True Savior
Member
Wu Jing for the China money.
At least the action scenes would be nice.
At least the action scenes would be nice.
It's so good, and not because of any reveal or twist, but because everyone knows what's going to happen, including Kylo and Han.
Exactly
The way they didn't make Kylo Ren's identity some big mystery for the sake of a twist is the kind of thing that makes the force awakens good. That, and his actual personality being insecure. They really made a lot of smart choices with that character in particular.
Fluffernutter Pancake
Member
Maybe the completely different film that would have resulted would have actually been interesting and worth watching more than a couple times?
I'm in the camp that thought TFA was a failure, though --- I seem to be butting heads with those in the camp that loved TFA, and we are all correct --- it's our own personal preferences and visions for the Star Wars saga.
I think Twin Peaks Season 3 is a masterpiece and was thoroughly engaged in every moment of every episode, particularly the finale. There are Twin Peaks fans out there that can't stand much of Season 3 and especially how it wrapped up. None of us is objectively wrong.
Yep. I like that the moment Han yells "Ben!" even the ambient background music cuts out. It adds to the whole sense of the air being sucked out of the room because everyone just accepted what's happening
Shit, even Chewie's angry roar is perfectly timed
Bobby Roberts
Banned
That's a lot of work for a "gotcha."
it's probably why they didn't pursue it in the script they ended up completing.
It's not a perfect script (and the filming/editing of it definitely revealed more than a few narrative shortcuts/omissions along the way) but there is nothing about Ben being revealed as Han's son that packs anywhere near enough punch to reverse-engineer the entire script to get to that point.
Especially since it's not his fuckin' movie, it's Rey's. I mean, if you're looking at the story from the perspective that everything needs to move through Kylo to have punch/power, then I could understand why you'd want the story reverse engineered for his big reveal. But I prefer the route they actually took.
At this point I'd say that the Starkiller Base is the cause of most of VII's issues, not Kylo Ren or any of the other characters (won't go into more detail lest I get into another shouting match with Bobby). The family dynamic between Han, Leia and Kylo was one of the best parts of the film, saving it for a reveal at the end would take almost all of that away. TFA needed changes to fix its story, making Kylo Ren's ancestry a Vader/Luke-style twist is not one of them.
If Lynch built the entirety of Season 3 around the final scene then I must have been watching an entirely different show. But that's a discussion for the OT, not here.
If Lynch built the entirety of Season 3 around the final scene then I must have been watching an entirely different show. But that's a discussion for the OT, not here.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
If that was a shouting match it was pretty one-sided. I wasn't yelling at you.
It's just Star Wars.
SuperEpicMan
Banned
Maybe in his sadness he could then throw himself into the quicksand where he and Finn originally crashed on Jakku.
Lifejumper
Member
Harrisons son name is Ben, it probably helped his performance in that moment. Lol.
Fluffernutter Pancake
Member
Can't find the article or other source, but apparently he shot the very last scene of the series prior to anything else, and hadn't even written most of the story yet.
"Argument", then. Whatever it was I don't want another one.
I won't deny that, but the show itself doesn't exactly point to Lynch taking the ending into account at all opportunities. To relate it back to Star Wars, it's definitely a lot easier to build a story around a twist/ending in a 2.5 hour film than a 18 hour TV show, but I wouldn't say it would be worth it. The Darth Vader reveal in V wouldn't have been known when Lucas was making IV and I think that made things a lot better as the story wasn't arduously foreshadowing a twist. That and Kylo Ren's parents is not a paradigm shift in the same way Luke's father was, it's nowhere near the same level.
Disclaimer: I am not discrediting your opinion:
I watched TFA probably 10-12 times by now. There's so much there that you probably missed on your first viewing. A lot of visual storytelling that can easily be overlooked. Subtle things. But very good things
That said, yes, I understand why TFA didn't work for a lot of people. It didn't work for me the first time.
However, I'm willing to bet you'll enjoy TLJ a lot more
Maybe in his sadness he could then throw himself into the quicksand where he and Finn originally crashed on Jakku.
By God, we have it!
Can you say "Best Motion Picture of the Year", anyone?
For Your Consideration
Star Wars: Love Never Dies
Directed by Toa TAK, music by Andrew Lloyd Weber
Davey Cakes
Member
Starkiller Base, giant hologram Snoke, and the utter waste of the guys from The Raid are still the only true issues with Episode VII in my opinion.
I think the pieces fell together pretty well otherwise. I always understood Kylo as a villain.
I think the pieces fell together pretty well otherwise. I always understood Kylo as a villain.
Fluffernutter Pancake
Member
Maybe I will give TFA one more viewing ;-)
I do hope and expect TLJ to be a hell of a ride and even better than TFA
I'll finally be able to do the musical I've always wanted.
There's so many small character moments sprinkled throughout the film. Makes me wanna go watch it again
But yeah, shit is gunna get real in TLJ
Extra Sauce
Member
Needs a Josh Tranq button.
Yeah hearing Chewie yell out is kind of like when the emotions really hit me.
Also, Chewie going full ham on some Stormtroopers immediately after was a little cathartic
Yeah, replace Starkiller with a confrontation on a First Order Super Star Destroyer or something and it would have been better
Cipher Peon
Banned
I'm very happy with this news. I thought Trevorrow was the wrong choice since his announcement. I guess this balances the books with regards to Lord and Miller getting the boot
not even close RIP
I thought Kylo Ren was interesting AND badass. So cool!
Bobo Dakes
Member
As much as I'm defending it, TFA definitely has flaws. I'm fine with Star Killer base but I was waiting for the movie to do something new during that assault.
An explanation for how Poe made it back to the Resistance would've been nice.
Them doing more with the dude's from The Raid.
Chewie not hugging Leia at the end and so on.
Making sure I don't come off as a blind fanboy.
An explanation for how Poe made it back to the Resistance would've been nice.
Them doing more with the dude's from The Raid.
Chewie not hugging Leia at the end and so on.
Making sure I don't come off as a blind fanboy.
Yeah, as I said above, it really didn't need one. If it did have one it shouldn't have been introduced and destroyed in the same film as in IV, it should have been a trilogy-spanning threat instead of something that the Resistance blows up like it's nothing. As I said above, Starkiller base was probably TFA's greatest flaw and is the basis of so many complaints (why TNO is more powerful than the Empire, VII = IV, etc).
We did get that!
As DLC for the Lego tie-in game.
He turned it down and gave it to me.
shira
Member
Korra s2 callbacks?