Thats not how game development works. You just wouldnt have that dungeon. Look at Wind Waker.
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Colin Was Right - How Mobile Gaming Ruined Everything
- Thread starter Corpsepyre
- Start date
Thats not how game development works. You just wouldnt have that dungeon. Look at Wind Waker.
Paracelsus
Member
Because "WHOA" graphics is the only strong leash you have to keep them pouring money in the industry. If you stop selling games on graphical fidelity, realism etc., you stop selling 1000$ gpu cards, you stop selling 8k monitors, gaming cpu, you stop selling oled, 144hz and all of the related pieces of hardware. And above all else, you jeopardize any new console attempt to breath fresh air in the industry because if people don't get blown away from the first impression, they won't fall for it.
Not pursuing graphics in 2006 is what """killed""" Nintendo's relevance in the industry and made them into a sideshow. Publishers didn't take them seriously, the "person who'll be here long after the ephemeral casual so-called "player" is long gone" Colin is talking about didn't either, and when the buzz died, they were left with nothing. The Nintendo example sounds weird, but the "if u real gamer u dun caer 4 graphecks" rhetoric (and it is) only gets you so far. People see what the standard set by the industry is, they see you as sub-standard, they think you aren't taking yourself seriously, they don't take you seriously.
Well, it's not as much about the games as the business model, right? My problem with Candy Crush isn't its gameplay or that people old enough to be my parents play it... My concern is that it implements a compelling business model that publishers might see as more appealing than the pursuit of bigger budget games. As our demands for what constitutes a "proper AAA game" go up, so do development costs and the length of development cycles. Large studios shut down, devs are laid off en masse and publishers have to be compelled by a strategy that allows them to get a wider range of software to market way faster at way lower cost.
Maybe I'm being paranoid and there's not going to be any dip in the output of quality games that I'd enjoy from publishers that make "real" games. Or, maybe, ten years from now we'll all be aside ourselves with anticipation at the upcoming entry in the Angry Birds series the same way we're freaking out about Horizon.
damien1928
Banned
There are plenty of examples from last generation where dlc was actually already on the disc, a quick example would be WWE games where the download file was like 12kb
In the context of Zelda you could be right, but day one dlc still happens and it's not right.
Cut content and then charge for it, hard mode for example. They try to take advantage. This isn't directed at Nintendo but everyone.
I... I don't agree with him, at least not so far.
When it comes to micro transactions, this was going to show up regardless. We saw the start of it all with horse armor back in 2006.
The flooding of games on Steam happened due to the development of steam greenlight, and that was because it took Valve too long to approve all the submissions.
My point being that the forces we see in gaming sprung out of the move to digital marketplaces, rather than the growth of mobile gaming.
He goes on to say that cooking a few times a week does not make you a chef, but so what? Playing games does not make you a developer or a e-sport celebrity either. Chef is a job title.
Then he continues by saying that reading the martian does not make you an astrobiologist. No, but it does make you a reader!
Now if you define "gamer" as someone who plays very specific games and belongs to some sort of sub-culture, then he might be able to make that argument, but he specifically says that this is not the case!
If you play video games you are a gamer. It is no surprise that this does not say very much about the person in question, but "gamer" is not a protected title, it is not a job - it is a common word for people who play video games.
I agree with him when he says that the "core gamer" and the more casual F2P phone-gamer are actually two different markets, but I am unsure if there really is any misunderstanding of this among publishers.
In short: I don't think he is convincing when he blames all of "conventional gaming's" main issues on mobile games, and I'm not sure why he is insisting on making a separation. I also think we would have seen most of these issues even if smartphones did not take off.
When it comes to micro transactions, this was going to show up regardless. We saw the start of it all with horse armor back in 2006.
The flooding of games on Steam happened due to the development of steam greenlight, and that was because it took Valve too long to approve all the submissions.
My point being that the forces we see in gaming sprung out of the move to digital marketplaces, rather than the growth of mobile gaming.
He goes on to say that cooking a few times a week does not make you a chef, but so what? Playing games does not make you a developer or a e-sport celebrity either. Chef is a job title.
Then he continues by saying that reading the martian does not make you an astrobiologist. No, but it does make you a reader!
Now if you define "gamer" as someone who plays very specific games and belongs to some sort of sub-culture, then he might be able to make that argument, but he specifically says that this is not the case!
If you play video games you are a gamer. It is no surprise that this does not say very much about the person in question, but "gamer" is not a protected title, it is not a job - it is a common word for people who play video games.
I agree with him when he says that the "core gamer" and the more casual F2P phone-gamer are actually two different markets, but I am unsure if there really is any misunderstanding of this among publishers.
In short: I don't think he is convincing when he blames all of "conventional gaming's" main issues on mobile games, and I'm not sure why he is insisting on making a separation. I also think we would have seen most of these issues even if smartphones did not take off.
Publishers didnt take Nintendo seriously when they put out equivalent machines with the N64 and the Gamecube. Thats why they turned away from pushing graphics in the first place. It wasnt benefiting them in grabbing users or third parties.
lol
Nealand Liquor
Member
Sony won't, at least while they are barely offering compelling product for their core base as it is.
Imo this generation has been pure trash in terms of good, quality games seen only on the PS4, or even consoles for that matter. My laptop can run all the 8/16 bit retro styled games I want AND I can buy them for a fraction of the cost on steam & humble bundle. I didn't buy a console for that experience.
Not a fan of this guys presentaional style at all. Sounds like he's reading an essay.
Also, while no doubt mobile games have had an influence on micro transactions, this shit was going to happen anyway. I remember stealing my Dads credit card to buy virtual cash on the Godfather on 360.
DLC's have also been around far before mobiles were anything other then contact devices. Faster internet and more connected consoles just meant they could put out DLC faster and in smaller packages.
Also, while no doubt mobile games have had an influence on micro transactions, this shit was going to happen anyway. I remember stealing my Dads credit card to buy virtual cash on the Godfather on 360.
DLC's have also been around far before mobiles were anything other then contact devices. Faster internet and more connected consoles just meant they could put out DLC faster and in smaller packages.
LordRaptor
Member
So if a business model is unsustainable, why pursue that business model?
Better yet, why are people who really value super triple A production values not prepared to pay more for those production values, or expect those production budgets to be subsidised by profitable titles?
He has talked against mobile games previously, and he found opposition to his ideas in one of his podcasts.
Having his own show gives him the ability of saying whatever he wants as facts, with the only opposition being the haters of NeoGAF.
More_Badass
Member
Because $60 has been the standard price for AAA games for over a decade, and people aren't going to be persuaded to pay more for a long time
LordRaptor
Member
Miniature Kaiju
Member
The thing is, they weren't really equivalent. Both relied on media that was woefully inadequate for their time, making ports harder, and the Cube hit the market a year late when facing what's arguably the pinnacle of console gaming, the PS2.
Ninja Scooter
Member
You are missing the point. In a lot of cases the reason that extra content was green lit and developed was because it was budgeted as DLC. If they couldn't make extra money off of it, they simply wouldn't create it. The delivery method is irrelevant.
BurritoBushido
Member
I LOVE how he is trashing the mobile games industry for not having a sustainable business by reaching as large an audience as possible and making small amounts of money per customer.... YOU KNOW LIKE HIS OWN COMPANY DOES
The math isn't perfect because I don't know how much they make from ad revenue but:
$25,088 / 225,434 subscribers = $0.11 per subscriber
Assuming they made 5x as much including ads, they're at half a dollar per customer.
Gee, Colin, I guess if generating widely available free content and relying on small bits of revenue per user in addition to a select few loyal users that contribute in large amounts isn't sustainable... maybe you should have founded a different kind of company...
The math isn't perfect because I don't know how much they make from ad revenue but:
$25,088 / 225,434 subscribers = $0.11 per subscriber
Assuming they made 5x as much including ads, they're at half a dollar per customer.
Gee, Colin, I guess if generating widely available free content and relying on small bits of revenue per user in addition to a select few loyal users that contribute in large amounts isn't sustainable... maybe you should have founded a different kind of company...
More_Badass
Member
It still is.
I mean, there is thousands more free/shitty flash/F2P games on PC than decent to masterpiece games but you don't define PC games by their worst, right? Same on console or Wii and so on
Why is mobile different?
The Nintendo example doesn't work, because the N64 and GameCube were both more powerful than the respective Sony machines and they were demolished. What matters is exclusives, third party support, and variety. Games like Rocket League, Nioh, Firewatch and Soulsborne prove that you don't need cutting edge graphics and all that frill to compete in the market. On the contrary, games like Quantum Break, The Order, etc prove that you can't sell on just graphics.
And for PC with $1000 graphics cards, 144hz monitors and so forth... aren't the most popular and profitable games on PC made to run on mid-tier laptops? This just shows you that a game like League of Legends or something is a better avenue to pursue than Crysis or whatever if you are interested in profit. If you want to make money, you make a good game and market it right.
Sure, they don't play video games. They play a video game. This is like saying someone who only plays Mario or Call of Duty doesn't play video games because their interest is singular and are not participating in a broad range of available titles.
LordRaptor
Member
One of the biggest driving forces in mobile gaming is that every smartphone is "gaming capable" with a GPU from the outset - on the PC side of things for the longest time, anything more than software rendering basically required customers to bite the bullet and buy a dedicated GPU which frequently the Dells and Lenovos of the world didn't consider a standard component in pre-builts.
More_Badass
Member
He's saying Candy Crush isn't a video game, therefore people who play it aren't playing video games
Sgt. Kabukiman
Banned
You can even go back to arcade games. Want to keep playing? Pay up. Nowadays: buy more energy. Some arcade games even had actual micro-transactions for items, like one of the Double Dragon sequels. These business models would exist no matter what, mobile gaming has nothing to do with it.
But that doesn't fit my narrative that mobile games are the worst! I dislike them so they must be to blame for everything bad about gaming.
For example, did you know that mobile games invented paying for playing online?
BurritoBushido
Member
Are you some how confusing a metaphor about broken clocks?
Crimsonsky
Member
Colin was right indeed. Well said, good sir. Long have I loathed mobile games and the bs they brought with them.
Ninja Scooter
Member
Gauntlet literally begs you for more money as you play, and your life constantly drained no matter what to ensure you kept pumping in quarters.
NBA Jam let you play one quarter of a game, and the rest were microtransactions. On top of that it had some of the worst rubberband AI to ensure that games stayed close and you were enticed to keep paying.
gioGAF
Member
Great video. I totally agree with what Colin is saying. The current shape of gaming is mostly garbage. Nothing ships complete or in proper working order and then you are drip fed more "content" for a modest fee.
Very few people are doing it right (GTA and Titanfall 2 come to mind), the rest are just nickle and diming scumbags (anything Activision or Konami).
I'm pretty much off the AAA wagon and will only buy GOTY editions (only if they have everything ON the disc) or games from specific companies that have a good track record (Rockstar, etc.).
Very few people are doing it right (GTA and Titanfall 2 come to mind), the rest are just nickle and diming scumbags (anything Activision or Konami).
I'm pretty much off the AAA wagon and will only buy GOTY editions (only if they have everything ON the disc) or games from specific companies that have a good track record (Rockstar, etc.).
How are games "pushed aside"? Where do they go? Can you not buy them now? WHo actually uses steam as a discovery service? Do you also go on Amazon and go "let's see what I wanna buy today, let's look at new releases on Amazon"?
All of these practices were introduced by console gaming, by the way. Which goes against Colin's premise.
paperspace
Member
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DeathByBacklog
Member
Whoa. Colin breakin' out the thesaurus this episode.
LordRaptor
Member
And yet it's the only marketplace where the sheer breadth of gaming from ultra-casual hidden object games to AAA cinematic blockbusters at every pricepoint people are prepared to pay from legit free to $100 deluxe edition season pass is welcome and thriving.
thetrin
Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
Isn't Colin a libertarian? That would make sense given that.
Yep steam is great. Ill check best sellers and recommendations from friends, I never see all these shit games cluttering things up people always talk about
7DollarHagane
Banned
I am enjoying fire emblem heroes but I kind of wish it was just a real fire emblem game on a phone where you bought chapters to play a full game.
I think that mobile games are more or less totally throwaway garbage these days. I remember liking a few when they weren't all cash grabs and time wasters.
There's a lot of people who hate Colin for his political views which is totally bizarre that you can't respect someone being even slightly different. So they act like his video content is bad or he's a bad person who should quit the games industry. Been seeing a lot of it on Twitter and it's really gross.
I think that mobile games are more or less totally throwaway garbage these days. I remember liking a few when they weren't all cash grabs and time wasters.
There's a lot of people who hate Colin for his political views which is totally bizarre that you can't respect someone being even slightly different. So they act like his video content is bad or he's a bad person who should quit the games industry. Been seeing a lot of it on Twitter and it's really gross.
I'm not so sure about that.
I think this sums up the problem for me. Mobile games could be so much more but even Nintendo is giving in to the temptation for easy money. A game like Fire Emblem Heroes is ridiculously shallow compared to the rest of the series and it doesn't have to be that way. But what incentive is there to create a game with substance and depth when it's much quicker to just spin up yet another themed gacha and make millions off human psychological quirks?
LordRaptor
Member
His political views are being called out because the politics he ostensibly believes in are being enacted to their natural conclusion in the mobile market, and he seems to have a problem with the result of those theories when he is not directly benefitting from them.
I'm still confused where the causation is....and reading the thread doesn't make it seem like I'm missing anything.
I probably should watch the video at this point, because I'm genuinely curious as to how mobile gaming caused core gaming to experiment with alternate revenue streams.
I can more than understand how such experimentation can degrade the sort of content we do get, but I'm pretty sure that this is all the backs of choices this industry has made.
I'm curious, I guess, if Colin ever even makes his argument or if it is just "mobile practices are trash, I see them in our games, and therefore mobile ruined console gaming."
I probably should watch the video at this point, because I'm genuinely curious as to how mobile gaming caused core gaming to experiment with alternate revenue streams.
I can more than understand how such experimentation can degrade the sort of content we do get, but I'm pretty sure that this is all the backs of choices this industry has made.
I'm curious, I guess, if Colin ever even makes his argument or if it is just "mobile practices are trash, I see them in our games, and therefore mobile ruined console gaming."
It's almost like... it's easier to talk shit about theoretical economics until it actually impacts you! Guess he's learning the hard way.
Mr. Nice_Guy
Member
Wait, Colin has a show called, "Colin is Right"? I haven't thought about him in a while but I guess I'll throw this on the pile of reasons I don't care for him.
It's almost like... it's easier to talk shit about theoretical economics until it actually impacts you! Guess he's learning the hard way.
Is he? Mostly he come in here says "GAF being dumb old GAF lol" and leaves. I have a hard time believing he takes anything said here to him or about him seriously, unless he is just putting up an lol-face in public and thinking more deeply about the issues in private.
More_Badass
Member
Pretty much. Shitty DLC nickle-and-diming practices were a thing before the App Store even existed