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[Moonwalker]

You don't upscale 1080i to 1080p, you deinterlace and from what i can see these games look to be 1080p native. Plus to get 1080i, you generally need a full 1080p frame unless you use field rendering. Both games use tiling so there is no need to force field rendering for edram limitations.

 

[Bad_Boy]

from what i can see these games look to be 1080p native

you sure?

 

[Raistlin]

You don't upscale 1080i to 1080p, you deinterlace and from what i can see these games look to be 1080p native. Plus to get 1080i, you generally need a full 1080p frame unless you use field rendering. Both games use tiling so there is no need to force field rendering for edram limitations.

As I pointed out previously (we had this same discussion in another thread) ... the problem with this idea is that we don't know what part of the X-Box is employing the interlace filter.

If it is the GPU as many seem to suspect ... then that means DOA4 is not native.





I have no idea if Splinter Cell: DA was designed to output 1080p native ... I'm not sure there is enough info currently known. Some have claimed the game IS being field-rendered.

God I hope not.

Even if it isn't ... it may still have the issue that DOA4 potentially has.

 

[Moonwalker]

Deinterlace filters don't work well or at all for 60fps games onix. DOA4 most certainly if you actually play it doesn't contain any bob/weave deinterlacing artifacts, it looks clean and perfect all the time. Again i said both these games use tiling, so the extra overflow of the 1080p full frame isn't an issue for these games, especially when the game runs at 720p@4x is creating the same memory usage/tiling overflow.

With tiling the system supports 1080p full frame buffers without any problems, just accept it and move on. 1080p native is not something exclusive that only the ps3 can do. Ironically the 360 is the first system to deliver 1080p gaming.

 

[Raistlin]

Deinterlace filters don't work well or at all for 60fps games onix. DOA4 most certainly if you actually play it doesn't contain any bob/weave deinterlacing artifacts, it looks clean and perfect all the time. Again i said both these games use tiling, so the extra overflow of the 1080p full frame isn't an issue for these games, especially when the game runs at 720p@4x is creating the same memory usage/tiling overflow.

So are you claiming the game now looks better with the dashboard update?

 

[Moonwalker]

It looks sharper yes, still has the same effects going on there is no reduction in the games level of detail, plus at 1080p the game is only using 2xAA vs 4xAA at 720p, so it's kinda a weird trade off, you kinda see more detail in far objects because the of increased resolution, but you get a little more aliasing on closer objects because of the reduced AA level.

Because DOA4 has great background detail, the extra resolution does bring out the scenery more in terms of clarity, Overall though it looks very nice.

 

[nathkenn]

1080p and 60fps are freaking waste of resources =\

 

[Raistlin]

It looks sharper yes, still has the same effects going on there is no reduction in the games level of detail, plus at 1080p the game is only using 2xAA vs 4xAA at 720p, so it's kinda a weird trade off, you kinda see more detail in far objects because the of increased resolution, but you get a little more aliasing on closer objects because of the reduced AA level.

Because DOA4 has great background detail, the extra resolution does bring out the scenery more in terms of clarity, Overall though it looks very nice.

Do you have a 1080p TV?

What I'm wondering is whether the motion and jaggies look any any different from before the dashboard update ... and now with the dashboard update.

 

[Raistlin]

1080p and 60fps are freaking waste of resources =\

Thanks for the worthless and factually incorrect post.

 

[nathkenn]

Thanks for the worthless and factually incorrect post.

I'd like to see how you feel when you try to make an omg it's next gen game at 1080p and the console chokes to death. I bet sony marketing stuck that 1080p on the cover before they told the devs The same goes for either console

 

[firefoxsux]

I'd like to see how you feel when you try to make an omg it's next gen game at 1080p and the console chokes to death. I bet sony marketing stuck that 1080p on the cover before they told the devs

market wars ego boost ftw.
you. keep quiet.

 

[SeaOfMadness]

Thanks for the worthless and factually incorrect post.

how is it "factually" incorrect? first off, it's an opinion.

second, he does have a point. for devs to render a full 1080p frame buffer with AA and @ 60 fps, that means they are catering to like <1% of the gaming population right now.

they could better spend the resources on actual gameplay that the other 99% of the gamers would appreciate. does that not make sense?

or are you saying 1080p @ 60 costs the same as 720p? (which is crazy)

 

[nathkenn]

how is it "factually" incorrect? first off, it's an opinion.

second, he does have a point. for devs to render a full 1080p frame buffer with AA and @ 60 fps, that means they are catering to like <1% of the gaming population right now.

they could better spend the resources on actual gameplay that the other 99% of the gamers would appreciate. does that not make sense?

or are you saying 1080p @ 60 costs the same as 720p? (which is crazy)

exactly, this probably needs another thread though, sorry for the derailing
but as a developer, is this seriously what you guys want? It's quite costly, there is so much better stuff that can be done with all that power. Plus it helps us retain our sanity

 

[SeaOfMadness]

exactly, this probably needs another thread though, sorry for the derailing
but as a developer, is this seriously what you guys want? It's quite costly, there is so much better stuff that can be done with all that power. Plus it helps us retain our sanity

heh. didn't know you were a developer.

so there you have it from the horse's mouth so to speak.

 

[Chrono]

1080p + 60 fps + 48 bit color should hopefully be the standard for all good 3/4 gen ps3 games not created by third rate developers. if not then I guess ps3 just isn't that powerful. =\

 

[Speevy]

1080p is great, but I prefer standards that I can see on my 27 inch SDTV.

 

[Raistlin]

I'd like to see how you feel when you try to make an omg it's next gen game at 1080p and the console chokes to death. I bet sony marketing stuck that 1080p on the cover before they told the devs The same goes for either console

Obviously 1080p only makes sense for certain games.

I would think that is pretty obvious.

 

[Raistlin]

how is it "factually" incorrect? first off, it's an opinion.

Not really. If a game has the extra resources available to do 1080p ... then how is it a waste?

second, he does have a point. for devs to render a full 1080p frame buffer with AA and @ 60 fps, that means they are catering to like <1% of the gaming population right now.

So? If the resources are available, use them.

they could better spend the resources on actual gameplay that the other 99% of the gamers would appreciate. does that not make sense?

I'm not sure how processor resources for 1080p and gameplay are related?

or are you saying 1080p @ 60 costs the same as 720p? (which is crazy)

Where did I say that?

 

[Lord Error]

Deinterlace filters don't work well or at all for 60fps games onix.

Deinterlace doesn't work very well for 60FPS interlaced material, but upscaling 720p to 1080p works pretty well. I think so well that unless you have a big ass 1080p TV most people probably wouldn't be able to tell. Hell even 1080i to 1080p would look great with line doubling on good scalers. The problems would be a lot less obvious than at low resolutions.

Also, I'm pretty sure that 720p with 4xMSAA takes less bandwidth than 1080p with 2xMSAA or even no AA.

1080p and 60fps are freaking waste of resources =\

60FPS a waste of resources? Spoken like a true EA developer :\

 

[sangreal]

According to December's OPM's mini-reviews:

1080p
Marvel: Ultimate Alliance
Fight Night Round 3
Ridge Racer 7
Full Auto 2: Battlelines
NBA 07

1080i
F.E.A.R.

720p
Rainbow Six Vegas
NHL 2K7
Tony Hawk's Project 8
Call of Duty 3
The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion
Untold Legends: Dark Kingdom
Genji: Days of the Blade
Sonic the Hedgehog
Tiger Woods PGA Tour 07
Need for Speed Carbon
NBA Live 07
Madden NFL 07
Mobile Suit Gundam: Crossfire
Blazing Angels: Squadrons of WWII
NBA 2K7
Resistance: Fall of Man

 

[lips]

Why cant the mods just tag you with this already? Its like every other thread you post in this gets asked. On topic, I might be getting a 65" mitsubishi soon, 1080p

she was great in 'soul plane'
'tea baggin' ha ha, anyone? oh man.

 

[Speevy]

I'm not a developer or anything, but does the 1080p thing take any time?

 

[Raistlin]

exactly, this probably needs another thread though, sorry for the derailing
but as a developer, is this seriously what you guys want? It's quite costly, there is so much better stuff that can be done with all that power. Plus it helps us retain our sanity

Is this seriously what we want?

Sure ... when it makes sense.



For example, a game that has a limited stage size and does not have extreme texture needs - say a sports or fighting game - that seems like a good candidate. Assuming the modeling is done efficiently and it is not using an insane amount of effects ... doesn't it make sense to apply the extra resources to do 1080p?

Similarly, a game with stylized art direction that doesn't use a lot of texturing - Mario-type game, etc. - that would seem like a good candidate.



Obviously I wouldn't want it if the trade-offs do not make sense for the context of the gameplay field or the graphics/effects design.



BTW - When you say 60fps ... was that specifically in regards to 1080p? I hope so 0_o

What I mean is, you aren't saying 60fps isn't worth it for 720p are you? For certain styles of games, 60fps is VERY important to many of us, regardless of resolution.

 

[Chrono]

I hope MGS4 comes out at 1080p/60 fps. that'd shut everybody up. :lol

I'm not sure how processor resources for 1080p and gameplay are related?

I think he's referring to the nintendo-established fact that the more power you use, the less fun your game becomes.

 

[SolidSnakex]

I'd like to see how you feel when you try to make an omg it's next gen game at 1080p and the console chokes to death. I bet sony marketing stuck that 1080p on the cover before they told the devs The same goes for either console

If they can pull it off then what's the problem? Lair looks amazing and its running in 1080p while having a ton of detail that's not seen in alot of high profile 720p games even though its also a free roam game. Seems like it comes down to just how talented the developers on in this situation.

 

[lips]

any games for ps3 known to be 480p or less? or 720p a pretty safe bet for all games (going for 1080p myself, but 720p is nice)

 

[Insane Metal]

According to December's OPM's mini-reviews:

1080p

Fight Night Round 3

Oh Shit ! Really ?

 

[nathkenn]

I'm not a developer or anything, but does the 1080p thing take any time?

It takes from a limited pool of resources that I think could be better spent. It does take time to figure out how to get runs to run smoothly at that res, especially if you plan on doing post stuff. Hell, if you can run your game at 1080p and make it look awesome then sweet. I got no complaints. I dunno, I guess my job is making graphical wiz bang effects. Bumping the res and framerate up take away from that so it makes me a sad panda.

 

[Speevy]

Is this seriously what we want?

Sure ... when it makes sense.



For example, a game that has a limited stage size and does not extreme texture needs - say a sports or fighting game - that seems like a good candidate. Assuming the modeling is done efficiently and it is not using an insane amount of effects ... doesn't it make sense to apply the extra resources to do 1080p?

Similarly, a game with stylized art direction that doesn't use a lot of texturing - Mario-type game, etc. - that would seem like a good candidate.



Obviously I wouldn't want it if the trade-offs do not make sense for the context of the gameplay field or the graphics/effects design.

So you're saying Gears would be a pretty bad game to put in 1080p.

 

[sangreal]

Oh Shit ! Really ?

That is what it says:

Out of all of EA's launch titles, this is our top pick. For one, it looks amazing, and thanks to the new first-person mode (which is exclusive to the PS3 version of the game), you can witness the blood and sweat rolling off your opponent's body up close and personal. Another neat feature is that you can use the tilt sensor to execute illegal moves like head-butts. Those of you with high-definition TVs that you're dying to show off can't miss this.

Resolution: 1080p

Online: Yes

Sixaxis: Yes

Must-buy: Yes

 

[Moonwalker]

Onix of course i have a 1080p tv.

Also, I'm pretty sure that 720p with 4xMSAA takes less bandwidth than 1080p with 2xMSAA or even no AA.

Bandwidth wise they're similar, but 1080p uses more GPU fillrate and more shading resources.

For a loaded next gen game, it's better to go for 720p with lots of effects and 4xAA imo. The end result will generally be better. 1080p is a nice bonus for those 1.5 style games that really aren't loaded with effects/next gen lighting and pushing the system all that hard.

 

[----]

What the hell is a 1080i game? Is it just a 540p game with line doubling?

The game system doesn't render interlaced frames so saying a game is native to an interlaced resolution is weird.

 

[SeaOfMadness]

I'm not sure how processor resources for 1080p and gameplay are related?

well therein lies the problem. if you knew how it worked, maybe you'd see it our way.

in order to render a game at native 1080p, all of the graphical effects need to be applied to a frame buffer that's about 30% larger. so basically it's more or less a 30% hit on performance right off the bat. making it 60fps vs 30fps would be roughly 50% hit on performance. my assertion is you cannot have both unless the game is simple enough (i.e. doesn't have too much geometry and/or too many effects). some games can get away with that, most cannot. adding 2x or 4x AA to the mix means even more resources dedicated to rendering. these new consoles are pretty powerful, but not powerful enough for that.

and like i said earlier, the devs are asking you would you rather have enhanced gameplay, really detailed visuals or would you rather have 1080p? you can't have both (unless the game is simple, like I said before).

 

[Raistlin]

So you're saying Gears would be a pretty bad game to put in 1080p.

When I was writing the post ... that is the exact game I was thinking would be a terrible choice on current gen systems :lol

 

[lips]

Is this seriously what we want?

Sure ... when it makes sense.



For example, a game that has a limited stage size and does not extreme texture needs - say a sports or fighting game - that seems like a good candidate. Assuming the modeling is done efficiently and it is not using an insane amount of effects ... doesn't it make sense to apply the extra resources to do 1080p?

Similarly, a game with stylized art direction that doesn't use a lot of texturing - Mario-type game, etc. - that would seem like a good candidate.



Obviously I wouldn't want it if the trade-offs do not make sense for the context of the gameplay field or the graphics/effects design.



BTW - When you say 60fps ... was that specifically in regards to 1080p? I hope so 0_o

What I mean is, you aren't saying 60fps isn't worth it for 720p are you? For certain styles of games, 60fps is VERY important to many of us, regardless of resolution.

yet factor 5 claims 1080p was required to make vivid textures more visible. Its not like rsx cannot use both memory pools for textures, and has the largest texture pre-fetch of any known chip, so a large frame buffer should not prevent texture look-ups.

 

[Raistlin]

well therein lies the problem. if you knew how it worked, maybe you'd see it our way.

in order to render a game at native 1080p, all of the graphical effects need to be applied to a frame buffer that's about 30% larger. so basically it's more or less a 30% hit on performance right off the bat. making it 60fps vs 30fps would be roughly 50% hit on performance. my assertion is you cannot have both unless the game is simple enough (i.e. doesn't have too much geometry and/or too many effects). some games can get away with that, most cannot. adding 2x or 4x AA to the mix means even more resources dedicated to rendering. these new consoles are pretty powerful, but not powerful enough for that.

and like i said earlier, the devs are asking you would you rather have enhanced gameplay, really detailed visuals or would you rather have 1080p? you can't have both (unless the game is simple, like I said before).

You are missing my point.

The gameplay of a game is not tied to the graphics, assuming a respectable framerate.


If you read my post above detailing when it makes sense to do ... I agree that it only makes sense for certain game and graphics designs.

Obviously certain games would have trade-offs that simply do not make sense to do.



BTW - I'm not saying all games must be 60fps that are 1080p. Obviously it matters what style of game it is.

 

[SeaOfMadness]

... and even if the game can handle 1080p @60fps, it's still arguable if the devs should just enhance the 720p version up the wazzu if for no other reason than to give the 99% of the gaming public an even better looking version of the game. i mean why cater to such a small population?

if the devs come to the conclusion that there's no more that they'd like to do visually (heh, when does *that* ever happen, but anyway) and the game runs at 1080p @60fps already (uh.. ok), then yeah it would make sense

 

[lips]

Onix of course i have a 1080p tv.


Bandwidth wise they're similar, but 1080p uses more GPU fillrate and more shading resources.

For a loaded next gen game, it's better to go for 720p with lots of effects and 4xAA imo. The end result will generally be better. 1080p is a nice bonus for those 1.5 style games that really aren't loaded with effects/next gen lighting and pushing the system all that hard.

Possibly, but I find it difficult to imagine going past 100 billion shader ops this gen. Even future gaming cards are known to have increadably high shaders to reduce latency, not because games devs are having trouble fitting games into a limit of several tens of billions of shader ops.

 

[Raistlin]

yet factor 5 claims 1080p was required to make vivid textures more visible. Its not like rsx cannot use both memory pools for textures, and has the largest texture pre-fetch of any known chip, so a large frame buffer should not prevent texture look-ups.

Certainly high res textures will look better ... but it matters the game design whether it is feasible.

If a game has a really large playfield or has really varied textures, you will certainly run into memory issues.


As I've said, a dev has to make the decision on a game-by-game basis.



For Lair, it appears that there is a lot of texture re-use ... which makes sense given the setting of the game. I'm sure that helps with their memory.

 

[Zep]

Virtual Tennis 3 (Sega) - 60fps - Launch

Jigga what?! Launch?

 

[Speevy]

I like to think of things from the perspective of PS3 owners, and even those with HDTVs. This is the high definition generation afterall, and 1080p seems to be something that Sony wants to advertise.

However, I can't even dream up a scenario when 50 million HDTV-owning PS3 owners would bemoan some game not running in native 1080p.

The 60 FPS thing is something we've been arguing about for over a generation now.

 

[fortified_concept]

Oh for god's sake when will people understand the difference between 1080p upscaled and native? Just because some fanboy at OA claimed that SC: DA and DOA4 are 1080p native it doesn't make it the truth. If there was a X360 1080p game we would know it. Moonwalker please stop quoting bullshit from idiots at the internets, unless you have a credible link.

 

[Speevy]

Jigga what?! Launch?

Not in the US anyway.

 

[Raistlin]

Jigga what?! Launch?

Isn't it?

 

[SeaOfMadness]

You are missing my point.

The gameplay of a game is not tied to the graphics, assuming a respectable framerate.


If you read my post above detailing when it makes sense to do ... I agree that it only makes sense for certain game and graphics designs.

Obviously certain games would have trade-offs that simply do not make sense to do.

well i mean both. rendering at 1080p @ 60 fps *still* taxes the cpu which would otherwise be used for gameplay (ai, physics, etc...). i know it seems like it's strictly a gpu thing, but it's not. things like calculating a cube map, environment map, particles, those are often done on the cpu. at 1080p, those things would be affected as well. that takes up precious cpu resources that could be used for physics and ai.

further, the art teams of these developers usually don't like to sacrifice (or otherwise reduce) visual quality when they know that "all they need to do is get rid of that silly 1080p requirement". maybe you're not a graphics whore, but a lot people are, *especially* the artists on the dev teams

 

[Zep]

Isn't it?

If it were, I'd have a PS3 pre-order....

I dont have one!

 

[Speevy]

Isn't it?

Probably March.

 

[Raistlin]

What the hell is a 1080i game? Is it just a 540p game with line doubling?

The game system doesn't render interlaced frames so saying a game is native to an interlaced resolution is weird.

Some games DO render interlaced frames (ie field rendering).

 

[lips]

Certainly high res textures will look better ... but it matters the game design whether it is feasible.

If a game has a really large playfield or has really varied textures, you will certainly run into memory issues.


As I've said, a dev has to make the decision on a game-by-game basis.



For Lair, it appears that there is a lot of texture re-use ... which makes sense given the setting of the game. I'm sure that helps with their memory.

Agreed, ofcourse, there is no chip that exists with unlimited bandwidth. 1080p with aa does make use of finite resources. I could only say that rsx can make use of the largest available memory accessable bandwidth for textures and largest prefetch cache. There is a world of difference in technological advancement of pre-fetch over post proccess collection in a daughter die, and rsx has this advancement. I could imagine a future of many more 1080p games, and when I realize the possibilities, the results could be imense.

 

[Raistlin]

well i mean both. rendering at 1080p @ 60 fps *still* taxes the cpu which would otherwise be used for gameplay (ai, physics, etc...). i know it seems like it's strictly a gpu thing, but it's not. things like calculating a cube map, environment map, particles, those are often done on the cpu. at 1080p, those things would be affected as well. that takes up precious cpu resources that could be used for physics and ai.

I understand that.

I'm saying certain instances it may make sense to do it.

Certain instances it may make sense to go 1080p30.

Many instances it will make sense to do 720p

etc.

further, the art teams of these developers usually don't like to sacrifice (or otherwise reduce) visual quality when they know that "all they need to do is get rid of that silly 1080p requirement". maybe you're not a graphics whore, but a lot people are, *especially* the artists on the dev teams

I'm sure the texture artists on the other hand prefer 1080p