SaganIsGOAT
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Court: Baker who refused to make gay wedding cake can't cite beliefs
- Thread starter ElectricBlanketFire
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Nah the court will next order him to make the cake. And it better be delicious!
excelsiorlef
Member
Uhhh Segregation wasn't 400 years ago.
One is a symbol for gay pride and the other is a symbol for hate. Their both distinctions regardless of one being hateful and one being about pride and acceptance. Simplifying someone's religious belief and saying "it's just a cake" is not the right argument to make because obviously the symbol of gay pride doesn't jive with the owner. Just like if I was a bakery, making a cake with a swastika wouldn't jive very well me either. Doesn't mean I wouldn't serve a cake to a white supremacist, just that I wouldn't offer a swastika styled cake. And before someone comes out and says "so you're comparing white supremacy to gay pride" no I'm not. Please try to closely examine and interpret an argument with logic before letting your ideology prevent you from rational discourse.
I don't agree with the business owner's decision, but he's not being discriminatory.
They wanted a specific cake that the owner doesn't wish to provide. That's not discrimination. Again, were he to refuse service to a gay couple for being gay that would be discrimination, but that's not what is happening. He's willing to provide them service, but doesn't offer the the specific service the customer is asking for. Again, if a straight male was refused a gay themed cake would you call that discrimination? He's not denying service to a group of people, he's denying a specific product on account of religious beliefs. Which is allowed under the 1st amendment.
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
The court just ruled that he is.
Are you saying this as a member of a minority?
He's literally denying them a cake based on an immutable part of their being. Pretty sure that's the basis of discrimination.
To be fair, while I think being a minority gives you more sympathy, to give his opinion on the matter doesn't require him to be. However were he to be put in that place, he might feel differently. I am gay and I felt the way he did for a long time - then I had *perceived* discrimination (it was a situation that needed to be clarified and I had a knee-jerk reaction) and I've since changed the way I think about it, completely. It took me to be on the receiving end of the discrimination (or, what appeared to be at first) for me to realize.... It feels really fucking shitty. Like, I had no idea how bad it actually makes you feel. It kind of shocked me awake.
He's refusing to make a certain kind of product no matter who orders it (is the other side of the coin). I already put in my opinion earlier (wedding cakes can't be gay, they're just cakes) but there is an argument on the religious freedom side.
But it's not a "gay themed" cake. His policy isn't "no cakes with gay themes like rainbows or whatever amirite" it's "no cakes for gay weddings." In other words, he would sell a cake for a straight wedding but refuse to sell that exact same cake if he knew it was for a gay wedding. How is this not discriminatory?
He's not denying them service, I'm pretty sure that's the basis for being discriminatory.
Monocle
Member
What the actual fuck? Are you literally unaware of the definition of discrimination?
He refused to make the cake on the basis that it was for a gay wedding. That was his reason. That was why the cake wasn't made.
What a splendid display of willful obtuseness. You should have been a sophist.
Hari Seldon
Member
That cake looks so god damn delicious.
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
I mean, I would prefer you read the OP, but it's right in the title of the thread.
Omegasquash
Member
One is just a wedding cake, not some symbol for pride.
It's just a cake, much in the way that a wedding is just a wedding.
Is the cake pictured in the op not the specific cake the couple asked for?
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
You've got to be kidding.
No, it isn't. Because if you read the OP/thread title, you would have seen he refused to make the cake. The picture is just artwork to match the story.
User 73706
Banned
Masterpiece Cakeshop? More like a masterpiece of shit!
Almost certainly not, but what difference would it make?
Mammoth Jones
Member
Problem is this doesn't happen. The opposite happens. People actually give him MORE business because they either support it implicitly or would just subconsciously prefer to eat without Black people around.
I think it's about belief here, not skin color or genitals you crave.
In this case, the baker says "I'll serve anybody anything except specifically wedding cake to same sex couples."
Would you force a black baker to cook a Confederate flag cake? Make a Muslim baker bake a cake saying "Mohamed was a pedophile"?
Same logic applies.
In this case, the baker says "I'll serve anybody anything except specifically wedding cake to same sex couples."
Would you force a black baker to cook a Confederate flag cake? Make a Muslim baker bake a cake saying "Mohamed was a pedophile"?
Same logic applies.
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
I'm not sure I would consider this logic.
Man that is so much better than the rainbow cake I made where it was just the frosting in between the layers of cake that was a different color.
The Last Wizard
Member
You know what, you may be on to something let's start brainstorming. We'll need a name first.
Damn right it does.
Cause it looks delicious and we want some, see^
User 73706
Banned
So he should try and appeal to insecure, closeted bicurious bigots is what you're saying.
Masterpiece Cakeshop: Serving Up Those Genitals You Crave(tm)
The title states "gay wedding cake" with a picture of a cake resembling gay pride. You don't see how that might be misconstrued? Why did you even call it a "gay wedding cake" in the title and then proceed to base your argument around "it's just a cake, there's no distinction to be made"? Sorry I didn't make the connection that the cake in the op was just supposed to be symbolic to the story and not the actual cake in question.
LiquidSword
Member
Those examples aren't equivalent because a wedding cake is a wedding cake.
Mammoth Jones
Member
Not sure comparing gay marriage to that is really a valid argument....
Yeah, how are the readers supposed to be expected to use basic context clues! For all we know this is about two cakes trying to get gay married! That's not natural!
It's sort of odd that people keep suggesting that a wedding cake must be somehow symbolic of beliefs, or represent something larger than itself. A Confederate flag cake would be hugely symbolic. A cake saying "Mohammed was a pedophile" in gilt frosting would be... I mean that's not even a symbol, that's pretty damn direct. A wedding cake, that's just an ordinary wedding cake in every way except that the wedding at which it will be cut by the couple and they'll feed little bits to each other and then everyone gets a slice and its a little dry and isn't it funny how wedding cakes are always a little dry and yes maybe I'd better have another glass of wine... happens to be a gay wedding. So the fuck what? How is that symbolic of anything?
The people saying "it's just a cake" are entirely right. It's just a fucking cake.
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
Why would it matter if the cake was rainbow as opposed to plain white?
Not really. Since those two are hateful cakes, and a weddingcake is a weddingcake.
True but I do think his thoughts on this are based on not knowing what discrimination feels like. Like you said, you and him were of the same mind until you experienced it for yourself. If he is someone along the lines of being a white, straight male (which I assumed from his stance on the subject) I feel his thoughts may be based on the fact that he can go into any store he wants and not deal with discrimination, one store out of millions would be laughable to him. But as gay marriage is just being accepted, your options for wedding materials may be limited. The discrimination has to be stopped somewhere, it may not stop a baker from disliking the cakes he makes but it may allow their kids to go "why is dad so angry? they are just like everyone else."
yeah, sure you can compare them. I'm using it to illustrate an arbitrary line - to describe the slippery slope.
Right which would be clearly impermissible and contradictory to what he's saying.
But what if someone wanted him to make a KKK themed wedding cake? Can he say no then?
But to be clear, I'm talking about the content of the cake not the clientele,
User 73706
Banned
Guys, I know you're saying it's okay to give cakes to the gays here, but riddle me this: if I made a cake shaped like a ham and give it to a Jewish guy, am I really in the bad here, even though Leviticus said "let them eat cake?"
I don't understand the logic here. If there is any.
We need acurate projections of the cake's gayness though. Shoddy journalism here.
shadowfall
Member
So when I see signs where it says "We reserve the rights to refuse service to anyone" in stores - is that illegal? I mean I was not denied any service but I am now curious to see if this sign is actually a violation of the law.
We're not talking about a "gay themed" cake, we're talking about a wedding cake at all. Nobody is asking this dude to make a cake with two dudes fucking or whatever. The content is identical to a wedding cake for a straight wedding. I don't see how you can draw the conclusion that the clientele doesn't matter, because it's entirely about the clientele. If you're gay, no wedding cake. If you're straight, sure, no problem.
Just to illustrate how dumb the logic of denying someone a cake based on their sexual preference is:
Baker: I won't make a wedding cake for black couples.
Court: You're guilty of racism.
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
Depending on the situation, the sign can be meaningless.
Did you miss the part where this scumbag bakery owner managed to get thousands of dollar on go fund me page for being a fuckin bigot?
HINT - There are shit ton of bigots in the society who would go to any scale to fuck the minorities as long as they can get away with it in the name of religion or race, and as responsible citizens of a first world nation, it is our responsibility to stop this fuckery and help our underrepresented minorities.
The sign itself is perfectly legal. They still can't refuse service to a member of a protected class on the basis of their membership in that class.
Omegasquash
Member
"I'd have made the cake if it was just the colors, but then they wanted glittery frosting, and that's where my religious beliefs draw the line. Sparkles are just too gay."
User 73706
Banned
You can deny service to people, just not discriminatory. For instance, when a group of guys walks into your shop filled with glassware, you can deny them service and entrance to your store, because of their behavior. You cannot deny a couple of guys service because they're holding hands.
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