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[Night Hunter]

This thread, what the fuck?

Paranoid much?

 

[Aske]

Thanks Apple! I would genuinely rather the US government couldn't get into anyone's phones than that they could get into the phones of convicted criminals. That's how bad things have gotten.

 

[samn]

This thread, what the fuck?

Paranoid much?

You don't think there's anything to be paranoid about? Have you been reading the news lately?

 

[Joyful]

encryption is kind of all or nothing so circumventing it really isnt paranoia

 

[Xando]

You know how this problem could be solved ? Apple provides the password, FBI opens the phone. Boom. That's the middle ground I am talking about. Apple doesn't have to break the encryption but juat opens the phone for the authorities serious criminal investigation.

This isn't his Apple ID password (Which would be stored on Apple Servers) but a local passcode which is not stored with apple but only on the device. To get to that password they would either have to brute force (try all the combinations) or crack the encryption and check the storage for the password.

 

[mrklaw]

Surely Apple have dev tools that they can use to connect the phone up and get into it? You wouldn't need a new version of iOS that inserts back doors?


I find the privacy thing weird. Most people happily hand over details of their daily lives to google VW email and web searches, or to the local supermarket via loyalty cards etc, in return for free email and occasional coupons. I'm not saying Apple should bend over, or 'what do you have to hide' - I just think there should be a broader discussion about privacy and this could be included in that discussion.

 

[GG-Duo]

https://twitter.com/BenedictEvans/status/699885811743887360

"Noted: Apple now isn’t mentioning privacy at all. All about engineering security v. bad actors. That’s much stronger ground to argue from."

 

[RetroDLC]

Surely Apple have dev tools that they can use to connect the phone up and get into it?

No, they don't. That's why it is literally impossible for them to figure out what the password is, nor could they upgrade the OS with a backdoor while it is locked down.

 

[numble]

Surely Apple have dev tools that they can use to connect the phone up and get into it? You wouldn't need a new version of iOS that inserts back doors?


I find the privacy thing weird. Most people happily hand over details of their daily lives to google VW email and web searches, or to the local supermarket via loyalty cards etc, in return for free email and occasional coupons. I'm not saying Apple should bend over, or 'what do you have to hide' - I just think there should be a broader discussion about privacy and this could be included in that discussion.

If you read the article, they used to provide data on older iPhones that lacked encryption. So now that there is encryption, they can't, which makes sense.

 

[Night Hunter]

You don't think there's anything to be paranoid about? Have you been reading the news lately?

No.

First of all if you really think Apple can't crack it's own technology, you're delusional.

Second, they want Apple to remove the mechanism, not hand that technology over to the FBI.

What scares me more is the attitude in here declaring Apple some kind of paragon for privacy, when all they want to do is keep people from knowing that they were bullshitting you in the first place.

I mean I'm all for some good conspiracy and fuck the government, and sorry to generalize here, but if my fellow countrymen and me were as scared of our government as you Americans, I'd move.

 

[norinrad]

Well this could end up going as far as courts ordering the types of Apple, Samsung to on-encrypt phones for divorce cases, or wanting to know about foreign bank accounts of individuals

Not pretty at all. I sort of understand where the government is coming from though.

 

[Irminsul]

"Noted: Apple now isn’t mentioning privacy at all. All about engineering security v. bad actors. That’s much stronger ground to argue from."

Yup. And everyone in here who thinks "Well it's for a good cause!", please remember that the tools needed don't care about a good cause.

Or just think what China will do if they know there's a backdoor to use in iOS. Maybe that helps.

 

[BlackGoku03]

You know how this problem could be solved ? Apple provides the password, FBI opens the phone. Boom. That's the middle ground I am talking about. Apple doesn't have to break the encryption but just opens the phone for the authorities.

1) Guy was guilty of mass murder.
2) Authorities are trying to piece together what was he planning.
3) Court agrees the info in his phone needs to be seen.
5) Apple should help so the case can proceed, due process is done and victims get some closure.

Explain to me how accessing a phone is in any different than a search warrant or wire tap that courts usually authroizes case by case.


Unless you're not involved in terrorist/extreme criminal activities, I don't think the government will care about the nudes on your phone.

I don't get it either. Apple can take the phone and unlock it for them without providing the methods used. It should be possible.

 

[pa22word]

This thread, what the fuck?

Paranoid much?

FBI has been trying to tie down companies to release this as mandatory law for some time now. Not much to be paranoid about....

Look up CALEA sometime and the FBI's extremely broad interpretation of it.

 

[Rootbeer]

Apple has responded:

http://www.apple.com/customer-letter/

Thank you Tim Cook for continuing to stand up for the privacy of Apple users. What little is to be gained from that phone is not worth the cost. The NSA and overreaching programs like prism have sparked a distrust that is not going away until the government makes considerable changes, and I'm glad we have Apple who's doing all they can to oppose these kinds of demands.

Tim wrote, "The FBI may use different words to describe this tool, but make no mistake: Building a version of iOS that bypasses security in this way would undeniably create a backdoor. And while the government may argue that its use would be limited to this case, there is no way to guarantee such control."

This is the most important detail for me. They will NOT limit its use to this one case, there is no way to guarantee that. They could use it in any number of abusive ways as they see fit.

It would help set the terrible precedent for all companies to provide similar tools. Well, the ones that haven't already done so. Does anyone even trust tools like bitlocker? I sure as hell don't. The fact that the FBI is reaching out to Apple in this way really encourages my use of Apple products and their security features.

 

[Moosichu]

The problem here is having every detail recorded to begin with, that would be dubious. But the court isn't telling Apple to store information it doesn't want to store, just to unlock a device. There is a big difference.



Err, if the evidence wasn't burned, how is saying it could have been burned an excuse to act as if it had been? The phone exists, it has data on it; allow the police to get to it.

But good encryption means you can't access it. Even if you want to. This kind of encryption has to exist.

 

[FyreWulff]

They refused to help, that's incredibly shitty.

Nah, that's actually pretty good. Giving the government a skeleton key to all iphones is not worth going after this edge case. It's also blatantly ignoring what encryption is - anyone actually interested in being encrypted at this point will just implement another layer of encryption under Apple's encryption, and at that point all the government will have is an useless skeleton key only useful against the general public. You can't outlaw math.

 

[jelly]

Can't they get most useful information even without proper access to the phone, GPS, internet history, calls, texts, data use. What about iCloud, that's probably fair game if they asked. They don't need the passcode of the phone to get that info.

 

[Zeyphersan]

You know how this problem could be solved ? Apple provides the password, FBI opens the phone. Boom. That's the middle ground I am talking about. Apple doesn't have to break the encryption but just opens the phone for the authorities.

1) Guy was guilty of mass murder.
2) Authorities are trying to piece together what was he planning.
3) Court agrees the info in his phone needs to be seen.
5) Apple should help so the case can proceed, due process is done and victims get some closure.

Explain to me how accessing a phone is in any different than a search warrant or wire tap that courts usually authroizes case by case.


Unless you're not involved in terrorist/extreme criminal activities, I don't think the government will care about the nudes on your phone.

Apple doesn't know the password to get into the phone. That is for the user only. If that person forgets the code (or dies, etc) then the phone is locked up tight like a prison. Nothing gets in or out

I don't get it either. Apple can take the phone and unlock it for them without providing the methods used. It should be possible.

There doesn't currently exist a method to get into locked phones, even within Apple. The government is asking them to create a special tool to do this, and Apple doesn't want to. If you think that if Apple makes this it'll only be used on this exact phone, or the government asks that it's only used on this phone and never again, I don't know what to tell you

 

[BlackGoku03]

I refuse to believe Apple can't break into their own shit.

And I refuse to believe they have to give up any potential methods used to unlock the phone. Just unlock it and give it to the FBI.

This isn't going to be the last time this'll happen. The next situation could be worse, with even more people killed but, hey, slippery slope and all that.

 

[Nexus Zero]

You know how this problem could be solved ? Apple provides the password, FBI opens the phone.

Yeah you have less than no idea what you're talking about. The FBI needs the phone password or pin code to open the phone. Only the phone contains the password or pin code - Apple does not have this information.

Even if (if) the iPhone used the iCloud password, Apple doesn't have that either - they have a version of it that's been (essentially) hashed. The next time you log into iCloud, they re-hash the password using the same algorithm and then compare that to the one they have. Not the password itself. Which is irrelevant because, again, the iPhone doesn't use the iCloud password.

Surely Apple have dev tools that they can use to connect the phone up and get into it?

Nope.

I refuse to believe Apple can't break into their own shit.

Your problem.

First of all if you really think Apple can't crack it's own technology, you're delusional.

So you don't have any background in computer science, ok cool.

I don't understand how there can be so many opinions based on so little understanding of what Apple's actually done here. It isn't magic.

 

[FyreWulff]

I refuse to believe Apple can't break into their own shit.

And I refuse to believe they have to give up any potential methods used to unlock the phone. Just unlock it and give it to the FBI.

This isn't going to be the last time this'll happen. The next situation could be worse, with even more people killed but, hey, slippery slope and all that.

That's not how encryption works. They changed it a while back to where they no longer possessed your encryption key on their end. They have never unlocked a phone since then. Because they can't. It would take roughly to the heat death of the universe to find the encryption key for an iPhone's storage drive.

Also, you can't update an iPhone while it's locked, so this is totally useless to use against this phone, but the government would be able to use it against any other phones in their possession.

 

[Dishwalla]

So without Apple's assistance essentially all they have is a hockey puck. Don't see how they are ever going to brute force their way into the phone, it'd be better for them to drop it and not waste man hours to try and break into it. God bless technology huh?

 

[Sesuadra]

So without Apple's assistance essentially all they have is a hockey puck. Don't see how they are ever going to brute force their way into the phone, it'd be better for them to drop it and not waste man hours to try and break into it. God bless technology huh?

even with apples assistance they have a hockey puck. read the letter from the apple CEO.

they helped them as much as they could.

 

[ginger ninja]

But Apple itself hasn't explicitly said they can't do it(i.e open the phone up) but rather that they don't want to because it sets a dangerous precedent.

At the end of the day, again, I am having a really hard time believing that even Apple couldn't open it up. Take the phone, build a prototype to open the phone in private, open the phone, hand over to authorities and destroy the mechanism.

Some posts in here are beginning to read like Apple PR.

 

[Dalek]

Wow the people in the first page freely admitting they're ok with the government demanding this. What the hell?

 

[Baron Doggystyle von Woof]

I like how safe an iPhone is. I mean I didn't believe Apple at first, but if the government needs their help to unlock a phone then my hats off to the Apple engineers.

Wow the people in the first page freely admitting they're ok with the government demanding this. What the hell?

Seriously, how can people trust any government (specially the US) with all of the Snowden reveals? I don't even live in the US and I'm scared of their government.

 

[BlackGoku03]

Yeah you have less than no idea what you're talking about. The FBI needs the phone password or pin code to open the phone. Only the phone contains the password or pin code - Apple does not have this information.

Even if (if) the iPhone used the iCloud password, Apple doesn't have that either - they have a version of it that's been (essentially) hashed. The next time you log into iCloud, they re-hash the password using the same algorithm and then compare that to the one they have. Not the password itself. Which is irrelevant because, again, the iPhone doesn't use the iCloud password.



Nope.



Your problem.

I don't understand how there can be so many opinions based on so little understanding of what Apple's actually done here. It isn't magic.

Not my problem. It's Apple's.

They made it, they can break it. They have very smart software guys. Apple just don't want you to know they can do it. But one day, they (or someone similar) will need to break into their own device.

 

[Nexus Zero]

Take the phone, build a prototype to open the phone in private, open the phone, hand over to authorities and destroy the mechanism.

And the next time?

Also what specifically do you mean by "build a prototype to open the phone in private, open the phone" - what exactly do you have in mind here? Because you're talking very casually about this process so I assume you have an exact idea of how you would go about decrypting a phone without its key.

 

[Irminsul]

So you don't have any background in computer science, ok cool.

Eh, to be fair, even a lot of people with a background in computer science don't understand encryption. Or the wider field of computer security, for that matter (because that's a lot more than "just" encryption).

 

[Kathian]

Clearly the gov should pay for the work to be carried out but Apple should be assisting here.

 

[theSlacker]

Wow the people in the first page freely admitting they're ok with the government demanding this. What the hell?

Don't look now, there are people on this page freely admitting that they're okay with the government demanding this. Well, on top of freely admitting that they don't understand how encryption works, but I don't think that that is their intention.

 

[Irminsul]

Not my problem. It's Apple's.

They made it, they can break it. They have very smart software guys. Apple just don't want you to know they can do it. But one day, they (or someone similar) will need to break into their own device.

You really should understand how encryption works.

If I build a safe, does that mean I can break it?

 

[Nexus Zero]

Eh, to be fair, even a lot of people with a background in computer science don't understand encryption. Or the wider field of computer security, for that matter (because that's a lot more than "just" encryption).

No, that is entirely fair. I have a very introductory understanding of it myself. I'm just wondering how and why so many people think they can speak with authority about Apple's capabilities in this area when they clearly know nothing about the nature of encryption. This is raw for me because as you might know the British government is trying to push through the Snoopers Charter which is also founded on a misunderstanding of encryption, and it's fucking annoying.

 

[BlackGoku03]

You really should understand how encryption works.

If I build a safe, does that mean I can break it?

I'm in IT. I know how encryption works. Apple never said they couldn't do it but that they didn't want to.

 

[FyreWulff]

But Apple itself hasn't explicitly said they can't do it(i.e open the phone up) but rather that they don't want to because it sets a dangerous precedent.

They can technically create an update that removes the PIN guess limit. However, this update would have to have to be signed with Apple's private key to work on a retail iPhone, so now this is an official update the government can convince any iPhone to use, not just this one. Plus, the phone is locked, and iPhones cannot be updated while locked, so this is blatantly an use of a terrorist attack to get at other phones they'd like to backdoor. It would also probably not take long for us to find the back door, and now nobody's phone is secure from criminals, and it would even make it possible to wipe and sell "clean" a stolen phone.

At the end of the day, again, I am having a really hard time believing that even Apple couldn't open it up. Take the phone, build a prototype to open the phone in private, open the phone, hand over to authorities and destroy the mechanism.

The iphone's key is in a secure enclave in the chip. You can't even decap and get the key, because they buried it inside, and no third party has been able to recover anything out of the secure enclave.

Some posts in here are beginning to read like Apple PR.

Or some people are seeing that the government is being misleading and don't want to give them a bulldozer to go after an ant. And this will be pointless as people will be able to encrypt in another layer under Apple's encryption, so even if Apple gave the government this special version of iOS, it's useless against anyone that uses encryption under the encryption. Which you can do, because math isn't illegal (yet). This is why we are able to send perfectly secure message via postcards, even though everyone can see the text (data).

 

[Dishwalla]

even with apples assistance they have a hockey puck. read the letter from the apple CEO.

they helped them as much as they could.

Nah, I think Apple could help them more if they wanted to, at least extracting the data off the phone even if they couldn't fully unlock it, the thing is they are unwilling to do so. Which is a good thing.

 

[ginger ninja]

And the next time?

Also what specifically do you mean by "build a prototype to open the phone in private, open the phone" - what exactly do you have in mind here? Because you're talking very casually about this process so I assume you have an exact idea of how you would go about decrypting a phone without its key.

Rinse and Repeat if a case of similar magnitude involving public safety appears. Again I ask, how is this different than warrants for house searches or wire taping ?

I admit I didn't read into the technical parts but why doesn't Apple just do what the FBI is asking for but privately without disabling anything or handing any keys to them.

Again I repeat, I am yet to read Apple admitting publicly that its impossible to open the phone, they're are saying that doing so what set a bad precedent.

 

[Irminsul]

No, that is entirely fair. I have a very introductory understanding of it myself. I'm just wondering how and why so many people think they can speak with authority about Apple's capabilities in this area when they clearly know nothing about the nature of encryption. This is raw for me because as you might know the British government is trying to push through the Snoopers Charter which is also founded on a misunderstanding of encryption, and it's fucking annoying.

Well, I could see the argument that Apple does have backdoors, they just don't want them to become public. Which could be the case, certainly. The thing is, that is literally baseless speculation because there's no evidence at all for this.

Also, most people don't say they don't believe Apple, they outright state Apple has to be able to access encrypted phones. Because reasons.

 

[FyreWulff]

Rinse and Repeat if a case of similar magnitude involving public safety appears. Again I ask, how is this different than warrants for house searches or wire taping ?

Because when you get a warrant for that house, it doesn't magically give you the key to everyone's house in the United States at the same time without a warrant, which is what this special version of iOS would do. Plus, any backdoor can be used by anyone - US govt, criminals, other governments.

 

[BlackGoku03]

I understand where Apple is coming from but how long will they be able to take this stance until an incident occurs that outshines the SB shooting?

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one GAF.

Nah, I think Apple could help them more if they wanted to, at least extracting the data off the phone even if they couldn't fully unlock it, the thing is they are unwilling to do so. Which is a good thing.

Right. Possible, but unwilling.

 

[FyreWulff]

I understand where Apple is coming from but how long will they be able to take this stance until an incident occurs that outshines the SB shooting?

The Paris attacks had more deaths and carnage and the suspects used zero encryption.

 

[Irminsul]

I'm in IT. I know how encryption works. Apple never said they couldn't do it but that they didn't want to.

They didn't want to develop a version of iOS that allows circumvention of security measures. Which wouldn't even help in this case. That's something entirely different than being able to decrypt the device without the key.

 

[ginger ninja]

Because when you get a warrant for that house, it doesn't magically give you the key to everyone's house in the United States at the same time without a warrant, which is what this special version of iOS would do.

Remove/downgrade the specialized version of OS before handing back the phone to FBI ?

For the record, I know FBI/Intelligence Agencies have been actively trying to pursue the backdoor idea for some time and I know that doesn't work because it breaks the principals of encryption. I am totally 100% against that or anything that broad.

This however isn't the same thing. I don't see FBI asking to completely break IOS security or allow a backdoor to all iphones here but rather a way to access the phone contents of a terrorist.

 

[Zeyphersan]

Some posts in here are beginning to read like Apple PR.

Reality has a pro-Apple bias

 

[mclem]

Edit: I mean what if that company is out of business? Track down former employees and force them to potentially develop new code to maybe research a new way to circumvent something that may or may not be circumventable?

There's a movie in that.

Heck, it's not a million miles away from WarGames, thinking about it.

 

[ginger ninja]

Reality has a pro-Apple bias

Relax, I was only referring to this post.

Thank you Tim Cook for continuing to stand up for the privacy of Apple users. What little is to be gained from that phone is not worth the cost. The NSA and overreaching programs like prism have sparked a distrust that is not going away until the government makes considerable changes, and I'm glad we have Apple who's doing all they can to oppose these kinds of demands.

Tim wrote, "The FBI may use different words to describe this tool, but make no mistake: Building a version of iOS that bypasses security in this way would undeniably create a backdoor. And while the government may argue that its use would be limited to this case, there is no way to guarantee such control."

This is the most important detail for me. They will NOT limit its use to this one case, there is no way to guarantee that. They could use it in any number of abusive ways as they see fit.

It would help set the terrible precedent for all companies to provide similar tools. Well, the ones that haven't already done so. Does anyone even trust tools like bitlocker? I sure as hell don't. The fact that the FBI is reaching out to Apple in this way really encourages my use of Apple products and their security features.

I absolutely realize people here who support Apple are not coming from a Pro Apple instance but are legitimately concerned about user privacy.

 

[FyreWulff]

See also: Lavabit, which the government wanted their keys to go after a single "criminal", but the method would allow them to obtain data on anyone using the service/device:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit

They shut down their entire business to protect people from government overreach.

It sucks that the attack happened, that people died. But we also have to be careful not to give up everything to go after an edge case within an edge case within a margin of error of all crimes committed. The crime was not prevented, the government likely already knows who they were talking to via call record metadata, and anyone that feels the government is on their trail left the country by now anyway.

 

[Rootbeer]

I knew you meant my post, ginger ninja. Show me how it's biased to hear a company talk up their serious approach to privacy for years only to be proven fully competent when the FBI comes forward with demands like this. If you are an Apple user you should be ELATED at this news.

 

[mclem]

Apple has responded:

http://www.apple.com/customer-letter/

I agree with the stance here, although I do note that it doesn't actually seem to suggest that it's impossible to do so, which intrigues me.