• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Crafting a Next-Gen Material Pipeline for The Order: 1886 (video/screen/slides/notes)

benny_a

extra source of jiggaflops
Apr 25, 2009
17,350
1
0
Most impressed with the cloth and the ease of composition.

Not that the rest is not impressive but that stood out.

80 people working on it.

Glad to see some reasonable amount of developers working on this.
Ready at Dawn is great. I'm glad we get to see a game from them on a home console and it being their own thing, that they wanted to do.
(At least it sounded like that when Ru talked about it at E3.)
 
Jul 31, 2007
24,446
1
0
36
Kansas, USA
I really like the sub surface scattering approach they got going on,

Still a bit of plasticine to the skin, but much better than this current gens harsh speculars and normals approach.
 

RiverBed

Banned
Mar 28, 2007
4,419
1
1,060
I feel this will turn many a head when it launches by tech alone. It looks amazing.

Certainly worthy of the title 'dat next gen graphics'.
 

wonderdung

Member
Oct 29, 2010
740
0
0
'Physically Based Shading'


Get used to seeing this used in games this coming generation.
Get used to not noticing. It's not about visuals as much as it is about changing the way you create shaders and materials to give you more predictable results under varying conditions.

You'll notice one of the presentations in that course is about a COD game. Did you know it was physically based?
 
Feb 7, 2013
2,337
0
0
The trash can picture in the pdf is actually an old asset from an internal presentation back in early 2012. I'd meant to swap it out with one of the new pictures of the water pump, but I must have forgotten. Just squint your eyes and pretend that it's a new, pretty asset.
The materials used for the model do look very nicely detailed! :)
 

JordanN

Member
Apr 21, 2012
19,804
8,527
1,025
Brampton, Ontario
Is 3d scanning for game pipelines a new thing?

I know developers have scanned photographs before and use them for games (a la Max Payne), but it's the first I've heard of a 3D scanner being used to gather real life normal maps.

Also, I admire all the composite material used for the pump. I want to be able to add detail like that.
 

Kane1345

Member
Mar 5, 2013
5,688
0
0
I can't wait for some gameplay videos, I'm very excited in the setting and potential this series has.
 

dragonelite

Member
Mar 9, 2010
12,132
0
0
I said that could calculated on the cloud, but looking at the hardware it doesn't seem that financially feasible right now. Maybe in 2~3 years it will only get cheaper.
But then again this is for every light source in the scene maybe you can save a lot of performance by only doing the it for the sun. Or a couple of lightsources.

On topic with The Order:1886 seems like a fast and efficient way to get a lot of textures going. I believe kojima did the same thing but with models not sure if they also did textures and normals.
And next gen brass pump...
 

DieH@rd

Banned
Dec 9, 2006
35,047
1
0
Is 3d scanning for game pipelines a new thing?

I know developers have scanned photographs before and use them for games (a la Max Payne), but it's the first I've heard of a 3D scanner being used to gather real life normal maps.

Also, I admire all the composite material used for the pump. I want to be able to add detail like that.
KojiPro is using this for MGS5.
 

luca_29_bg

Member
Aug 30, 2006
1,937
111
1,215
italy
I'm glad I put in that specular aliasing slide, it got a few laughs.

I also wanted to put in a "yo dawg I heard you like composites" picture when talking about putting composite materials inside of composite materials, but I never got around to it.

i suppose you can't tell us how many polygons are used for characters right ? i'm dying to know!

Because they are incredible! In somehow they reminds me the cg used in the resident evil remake.
 

efyu_lemonardo

May I have a cookie?
Jun 19, 2011
14,600
1
0
I'm glad I put in that specular aliasing slide, it got a few laughs.

I also wanted to put in a "yo dawg I heard you like composites" picture when talking about putting composite materials inside of composite materials, but I never got around to it.
what's the equation in the slide?
 

JCreasy

Member
Aug 23, 2007
3,138
0
1,065
I'm glad I put in that specular aliasing slide, it got a few laughs.

I also wanted to put in a "yo dawg I heard you like composites" picture when talking about putting composite materials inside of composite materials, but I never got around to it.
Is this a playable in-game asset?

 

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
Oct 29, 2006
42,985
0
0
Material scanning stuff is pretty impressive.

I really love the implications of physically based rendering when paired with these kinds of texture libraries. The Killzone Shadow Fall slides and these ones really show off how many different types of games it can apply to. It really speeds up asset creation and improves quality.

AA method seems pretty good too.
 

op_ivy

Fallen Xbot (cannot continue gaining levels in this class)
Jun 7, 2004
25,433
0
1,680
technically great, but the setting doesnt appeal to me what-so-ever.
 

QaaQer

Member
Jun 13, 2012
11,333
0
0
So you can get out before the crazy?
Thread isn't sensational enough for crazy. You need stuff like "dev sez Wii U is last gen", "mentally fragile dev quits FezII", "PS4 has an OS that needs RAM", etc. in the title for that.
 

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
Oct 29, 2006
42,985
0
0
technically great, but the setting doesnt appeal to me what-so-ever.
The setting is the most exciting thing about this for me. Well, combined with the fact that RAD made my favorite GoW game. Glad their getting a chance to do their own thing.
 

GameGuru59

Banned
Jun 16, 2013
2,957
0
0
Looks great. That's actually a really impressive way of capturing real world textures. Now if only developers put this much effort into game design...
 

-SD-

Banned
Aug 7, 2005
5,196
0
0
Skin shader looks more realistic in the E3 trailer. It looks clay-ish in those images.
 

SolidSnakex

Member
Jun 7, 2004
85,527
2
0
Skin shader looks more realistic in the E3 trailer. It looks clay-ish in those images.
That's what proper lighting can do for character models. The trailer featured the character models being shown in an actual game environment with game lighting. The car models from GT5/6 look really weird when they shown off in the white room screens, but under proper lighting they look amazing.
 

GameSeeker

Member
Jan 13, 2008
1,230
6
985
MJP,

An excellent presentation, as well as a very impressive debut trailer for The Order: 1886 at E3. A few question, if you can provide comments. If you can't, I understand.

1) In an era of deferred renderers, it's interesting to see Ready at Dawn using a tiled forward renderer. Obviously, there are pro's/con's with either approach. One of the pro's to foward renderer's is "better compatibility" with MSAA. I noticed that the E3 trailer is quite clean with respect to aliasing artifacts. Are you planning on using MSAA to deliver anti-aliasing or are you planning to use shader-based techniques like MLAA? I'm really looking forward to much improved anti-aliasing solutions in next gen games, so I'm curious as to what different teams are doing.
2) The 3D material scanning solution looks excellent. The presentation doesn't state what resolution you can capture. Does your solution allow you to directly capture 4K textures?
3) Can you tell us roughly how many polygons are in the model shown for the Skin Shading shots?

Thank you. I look forward to seeing more of The Order: 1886 in the future.
 

MJP

Member
Jul 20, 2007
10
0
0
MJP,

An excellent presentation, as well as a very impressive debut trailer for The Order: 1886 at E3. A few question, if you can provide comments. If you can't, I understand.

1) In an era of deferred renderers, it's interesting to see Ready at Dawn using a tiled forward renderer. Obviously, there are pro's/con's with either approach. One of the pro's to foward renderer's is "better compatibility" with MSAA. I noticed that the E3 trailer is quite clean with respect to aliasing artifacts. Are you planning on using MSAA to deliver anti-aliasing or are you planning to use shader-based techniques like MLAA? I'm really looking forward to much improved anti-aliasing solutions in next gen games, so I'm curious as to what different teams are doing.
2) The 3D material scanning solution looks excellent. The presentation doesn't state what resolution you can capture. Does your solution allow you to directly capture 4K textures?
3) Can you tell us roughly how many polygons are in the model shown for the Skin Shading shots?

Thank you. I look forward to seeing more of The Order: 1886 in the future.
Thank you! We worked really hard on it.

1) We actually used to use deferred rendering, and one of the reasons for switching was so that MSAA would be more affordable and less error-prone. I'm a firm believer in MSAA, and I think it's required if you want really good image quality. The shader-based techniques like FXAA and MLAA are certainly a lot better than nothing and they make a still screenshot look really nice, but they're fundamentally limited by a lack of sub-pixel information and it really shows in motion. They can still be nice though when used in conjunction with MSAA in order to improve the quality further and to cover up some of the places where MSAA doesn't work as well, and there's also some shader things you can do on modern GPU's that make MSAA more effective overall.

2) I'm honestly not sure what the resolution is of a raw capture. I'll have to ask Dave, the scanner is his baby.

3) A lot. :)
 

Horse Armour

Member
Jan 28, 2012
2,036
0
490
Thank you! We worked really hard on it.

1) We actually used to use deferred rendering, and one of the reasons for switching was so that MSAA would be more affordable and less error-prone. I'm a firm believer in MSAA, and I think it's required if you want really good image quality. The shader-based techniques like FXAA and MLAA are certainly a lot better than nothing and they make a still screenshot look really nice, but they're fundamentally limited by a lack of sub-pixel information and it really shows in motion. They can still be nice though when used in conjunction with MSAA in order to improve the quality further and to cover up some of the places where MSAA doesn't work as well, and there's also some shader things you can do on modern GPU's that make MSAA more effective overall.

2) I'm honestly not sure what the resolution is of a raw capture. I'll have to ask Dave, the scanner is his baby.

3) A lot. :)
What about something like SMAA which combines MLAA with subpixel information and a temporal filter for added temporal stability? Could you not have stuck with deferred and used SMAA?
 

MarkV

Member
May 1, 2012
427
0
0
What about something like SMAA which combines MLAA with subpixel information and a temporal filter for added temporal stability? Could you not have stuck with deferred and used SMAA?
Well, to have SMAA to handle sub-pixel it still needs MSAA.

Nice to see more Forward + engine in the future (The Witcher 3 also use it).
Thanks for sharing with us information MJP :)
 
Oct 30, 2011
5,279
580
695
I really appreciate the focus on image quality.

I absolutely despise jaggies....as the PS3 gen comes to a close, seeing the last of us being so beautiful, but so jaggy, is a little disappointing.

I was hoping jaggies would be a thing of the past for the PS4 but depending on developer direction this isn't going to be the case.
 

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
Oct 29, 2006
42,985
0
0
Thank you! We worked really hard on it.

1) We actually used to use deferred rendering, and one of the reasons for switching was so that MSAA would be more affordable and less error-prone. I'm a firm believer in MSAA, and I think it's required if you want really good image quality. The shader-based techniques like FXAA and MLAA are certainly a lot better than nothing and they make a still screenshot look really nice, but they're fundamentally limited by a lack of sub-pixel information and it really shows in motion. They can still be nice though when used in conjunction with MSAA in order to improve the quality further and to cover up some of the places where MSAA doesn't work as well, and there's also some shader things you can do on modern GPU's that make MSAA more effective overall.

2) I'm honestly not sure what the resolution is of a raw capture. I'll have to ask Dave, the scanner is his baby.

3) A lot. :)
You need to start saying this to everyone that works on games for PS4. Sounds great.

I really appreciate the focus on image quality.

I absolutely despise jaggies....as the PS3 gen comes to a close, seeing the last of us being so beautiful, but so jaggy, is a little disappointing.

I was hoping jaggies would be a thing of the past for the PS4 but depending on developer direction this isn't going to be the case.
TLoU's is more annoying since sometimes the AA method works great so it's more distracting when tons of jaggies show up all of a sudden instead of always being there.