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crowdfunded Phoenix Point now 1 year Epic Store exclusive.

TheSHEEEP

Gold Member
Steam doesn thave exclusive games, doesn't stop games releasing on other platforms, and even allows games to sell on key sites and giving customers the option to use those keys on Steam. Steam is literally the opposite of a manopoly, being popular doesnt change that.
Monopoly:
"A monopoly [...] exists when a specific person or enterprise is the only supplier of a particular commodity."
"Monopolies may be naturally occurring due to limited competition because the industry is resource intensive and requires substantial costs to operate."

This explicitly excludes any form of intention. It doesn't matter what Valve allows or doesn't allow. I'm not talking only about "where you can buy from", but also everything else the client offers.
I'd call Steam a "naturally occuring quasi-monopoly", not due to intention, but lack of serious competition. Origin, Uplay, etc. aren't serious, they are publisher-internal to begin with (also how Steam started, btw.). And as you said yourself, they failed becoming competition. Only ones coming close to what Steam actually offers are Itch.io and GOG - and both are small in comparison and still lacking in features. All competitors are small enough to consider Steam close enough to monopoly position in what it is doing.

Monopoly doesn't mean that nobody else is trying, but nobody else is succeeding.
All that matters is that no other client comes close to Steam in terms of spread/usage.
https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news...doesnt_want_to_try_and_be_the_Steamslayer.php
https://grumpygamer.com/twp_sales

Up to 15% of what Steam sells for its biggest "competitor". We could debate if that qualifies for calling Steam quasi-monopoly or not. Obviously, I'd say yes.
Though the definition of Quasi-Monopoly is obviously less fixed, I think it generally fits the situation here.

Besides your wrong definition of monopoly, you are also wrong about Steam not having exclusive games. Many games can only be bought on Steam. And many, many more can be bought in multiple places, but still only played via Steam, so are still Steam exclusive (Steam gains the user, if not their money).

Epics FortShite money, from little kids using their mama's credit cards, wont last forever.
Maybe. Maybe not.
We'll see. For developers alone, I hope that Epic succeeds, as it will likely force Steam to lower its ridiculous 30% share. If all this leads to is Steam lowering their share to 20%, that would already be a great development.
 
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Stuart360

Member
Monopoly:
"A monopoly [...] exists when a specific person or enterprise is the only supplier of a particular commodity."
"Monopolies may be naturally occurring due to limited competition because the industry is resource intensive and requires substantial costs to operate."

This explicitly excludes any form of intention. It doesn't matter what Valve allows or doesn't allow. I'm not talking only about "where you can buy from", but also everything else the client offers.
I'd call Steam a "naturally occuring quasi-monopoly", not due to intention, but lack of serious competition. Origin, Uplay, etc. aren't serious, they are publisher-internal to begin with (also how Steam started, btw.). And as you said yourself, they failed becoming competition. Only ones coming close to what Steam actually offers are Itch.io and GOG - and both are small in comparison and still lacking in features. All competitors are small enough to consider Steam close enough to monopoly position in what it is doing.

Monopoly doesn't mean that nobody else is trying, but nobody else is succeeding.
All that matters is that no other client comes close to Steam in terms of spread/usage.
https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news...doesnt_want_to_try_and_be_the_Steamslayer.php
https://grumpygamer.com/twp_sales

Up to 15% of what Steam sells for its biggest "competitor". We could debate if that qualifies for calling Steam quasi-monopoly or not. Obviously, I'd say yes.
Though the definition of Quasi-Monopoly is obviously less fixed, I think it generally fits the situation here.

Besides your wrong definition of monopoly, you are also wrong about Steam not having exclusive games. Many games can only be bought on Steam. And many, many more can be bought in multiple places, but still only played via Steam, so are still Steam exclusive (Steam gains the user, if not their money).


Maybe. Maybe not.
We'll see. For developers alone, I hope that Epic succeeds, as it will likely force Steam to lower its ridiculous 30% share. If all this leads to is Steam lowering their share to 20%, that would already be a great development.
Oh come on, dont be pedantic. If devs decide they only want to release their games on Steam, thats their decision, it doesnt mean they are exclusive Steam games, Steam didnt pay them.
EDIT. And yes some Steam only Indie games can be bought on key sites, and those keys used on Steam, but Steam gets no money from that, they could easily turn around and say keys bought from key sites can not be used on Steam anymore, they dont though.
 
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TheSHEEEP

Gold Member
Oh come on, dont be pedantic. If devs decide they only want to release their games on Steam, thats their decision, it doesnt mean they are exclusive Steam games, Steam didnt pay them.
If correct facts and definitions are enough for you consider something pedantic, maybe you should refrain from discussing things.
You are being intentionally ignorant to save your argument somehow.
Just let it go.

EDIT. And yes some Steam only Indie games can be bought on key sites, and those keys used on Steam, but Steam gets no money from that, they could easily turn around and say keys bought from key sites can not be used on Steam anymore, they dont though.
I do expect the Epic Store to take the same route, eventually. It obviously works well for gaining users.
Which is kind of the whole point. If your game can only be played on Steam, it doesn't matter too much where you bought it. Now you are on Steam. Which makes you way more likely to buy more things from Steam. Same goes for Epic, every person they get to use their client is a potential future customer.
Do not underestimate this kind of exclusivity. You know what beats a single sale? Multiple potential sales in the future. Valve knows this, as do others (afaik, you can also purchase for Origin, etc. on other stores, but I'm not 100% sure on this).
Plus, Valve already "punishes" you for not buying from Steam. IIRC, your Steam reviews will be rated less importantly (or shown less, something along those lines) than reviews of people who bought on Steam. Admittedly, not important for people who don't care about this, but it's not nothing.
 
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Stuart360

Member
[QUOTE="TheSHEEEP, post: 253856378, member: 745752"]If correct facts and definitions are enough for you consider something pedantic, maybe you should refrain from discussing things.
You are being intentionally ignorant to save your argument somehow.
Just let it go.



I do expect the Epic Store to take the same route, eventually. It obviously works well for gaining users.
Which is kind of the whole point. If your game can only be played on Steam, it doesn't matter too much where you bought it. Now you are on Steam. Which makes you way more likely to buy more things from Steam. Same goes for Epic, every person they get to use their client is a potential future customer.
Do not underestimate this kind of exclusivity. You know what beats a single sale? Multiple potential sales in the future. Valve knows this, as do others (afaik, you can also purchase for Origin, etc. on other stores, but I'm not 100% sure on this).
Plus, Valve already "punishes" you for not buying from Steam. IIRC, your Steam reviews will be rated less importantly (or shown less, something along those lines) than reviews of people who bought on Steam. Admittedly, not important for people who don't care about this, but it's not nothing.[/QUOTE]

I'm not trying to be ignorant. If say an Indie dev decides to release their game only on Steam, i think its a little unfar to blame Steam for that, its not like Steam stipulated they can only release on Steam (well as far as we know anywya). Its a completely different to the way Epic are doing it with actually paying money to stop other stores from getting the said game.
I'm not sure why the post is messed up by the way, i only clicked 'reply'
 
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Solomeena

Banned
I know reading comprehension is very obviously not your strength, so I'm going to explain this very carefully, hoping to give you some much needed education:
I said "quasi monopoly". That means that there was no serious competition, as is evidenced by every single developer ever who showed some sales numbers.
Steam never had noteworthy competition outside of small fish like itch.io or GOG, there are no storefronts out there that would have been able to eat a significant chunk out of Steam's cake.
This is simply the reality of the situation. Why do you think some of Steam's features are so bad? Like the review writing still not featuring a WYSIWYG editor, workshop lacking lots of features, etc. Reason: They had no competition, there was nobody else who offered anything close, so they had no need to improve.

I'm also not a Steam hater, I like Steam. It's the best store we have, plus the only bigger one that properly supports my OS of choice.
But I honestly hope the Epic Store succeeds, because that, by extension, will mean that Valve/Steam will have to up its game.

Valve is not a monopoly nor is it some bullshit made up quasi-monopoly. Either you are a monopoly or you are not a monopoly. Second, you act like Steam does not have a shit ton of other features that work damn well, god forbid Steam isn't perfect enough for you. And i hope Epic does not succeed because China is behind this massive cash bribing to get users outside of China locked into their service so they can do nefarious things since Tencent is the real master behind the scenes making Epic Games dance like a puppet on strings.
 

TheSHEEEP

Gold Member
I'm not trying to be ignorant. If say an Indie dev decides to release their game only on Steam, i think its a little unfar to blame Steam for that, its not like Steam stipulated they can only release on Steam (well as far as we know anywya).
I agree with that, I'm not blaming Steam for the dev's decision. That's what it ultimately comes down to.

Its a completely different to the way Epic are doing it with actually paying money to stop other stores from getting the said game.
I don't see how this is completely different.
Nobody is holding devs at gunpoint, forcing them to do anything. Devs taking the money because they have no faith in their own product are to blame for these cases.

Epic is just making the only kind of offer that could make them eventually become serious competition.
Think about it, what other way is there to become serious competition to Steam? Even if you had a client that beats Steam in every way (I dare-say impossible to pull off from the get-go, Steam does a lot) and a dev-friendly API to come with it, you'd still lack the most important things: Users and developers.
Developers won't come to your store just because it is nice, every additional store means more maintenance for your game. You gotta offer something more, like a higher cut. And many users.
But users won't just start using your client because it is so nice and it has many devs, because all their games are on another client.

The only way I could see a store like this having a chance at success without exclusives is to grant free games to owners of said games on your platform.
Basically, if Epic said "if you own the game anywhere, you'll get it for free on our store as well".
That in combination with what I said above (better client + better dev API + better dev share) COULD succeed in becoming an actual competitor to Steam. But only if Steam sat by idly, not improving on their own. And you'd still have to convince people to install another software, plus there are other investments users made into Steam. Communities, curators, etc.

A gigantic amount of work for just a chance at success, as so many other parts are still unsure, no matter how good your software is.
Much wiser business decision is to take money into your hand and go exclusives, at least until being established.
I can definitely blame a developer for betraying people that funded them as well as breaking promises, because they have no faith in their own product.
But I can't blame Epic for making business decisions that don't really have an alternative. They didn't make any promises, they aren't betraying anyone.
 
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Holammer

Member
Interesting tweet from Lewie Procter. It seems Epic spent a lot money to get the exclusive, enough for Fig investors to be okay with the switch or perhaps even demanding it.
 

TheSHEEEP

Gold Member
Valve is not a monopoly nor is it some bullshit made up quasi-monopoly. Either you are a monopoly or you are not a monopoly.
That's not how language works, but I think we already established your lack in education so I'll forgive you for that.
*pat pat*

Second, you act like Steam does not have a shit ton of other features that work damn well, god forbid Steam isn't perfect enough for you.
Second reading comprehension strike. If you take a third one, I'll have to place you on the bench and read some 4th grader material.
I clearly said in multiple posts here that Steam is the best client with loads of features. I just also said that almost all of these could be even better (and that is objective, they clearly could). And I also say that the reason they aren't better is that Valve has gotten lazy and complacent (just look at Artifact if you don't believe me...). You can argue the last one, if you'd like, but the rest is a given.

And i hope Epic does not succeed because China is behind this massive cash bribing to get users outside of China locked into their service so they can do nefarious things since Tencent is the real master behind the scenes making Epic Games dance like a puppet on strings.
Oh, dear... careful there, lest you bust a vein and the tinfoil hat slips.
 
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mcz117chief

Member
How much do you make at Epic Games Mr. Astroturfer?
"Astroturfing is the practice of masking the sponsors of a message or organization (e.g., political, advertising, religious or public relations) to make it appear as though it originates from and is supported by grassroots participants." Lol, I had to look it up. Just because I don't have a problem with a platform makes me Corporate Commander in disguise? I just don't care about what platform the game will be available on, it literally doesn't affect me at all. This is not like Dead or Alive Xtreme 3 which I had to get through Playasia because they refused to sell the game in all regions aside SE-Asia. As far as I know Epic store is available worldwide and thus all the people who wanted to get the game and play it still can and only their own refusal to get the game stands in their way.
 

TheSHEEEP

Gold Member
To be honest, I also had to look astroturfing up. Well, you learn something new every day!
Even if it is just insults ;)
 

mcz117chief

Member
To be honest, I also had to look astroturfing up. Well, you learn something new every day!
Even if it is just insults ;)
I had a vague idea considering the context and I remember reading it every once in a while but I always knew it under the name "shill".
 

Virex

Banned
Never heard that one before. You really got creative there, kudos. Must've taken you a while.
Strangely enough, it always comes alone. The lonely ad-hominem with nothing resembling an argument anywhere in sight.
Hint: Doesn't exactly lend much credibility to anything you were trying to get across.
You sure told me
 

Woo-Fu

Banned
Did they ever even look at Firaxis' XCOM sales numbers on steam where the game sold the most....... It sold like trash on consoles and you want to take a title that has the majority of your fans on steam and then go to epic store exclusive? Bold move there.

Even XCOM2 didn't sell that well on steam compared to the first game and far worse on consoles and you want to alienate the fan base of an extremely niche' genre?


It isn't about sales, it is about getting a cash payout today that is probably more than any profit you'd make from sales. Instead of selling the game to consumers one unit at a time they're selling the entire thing to Epic for a lump sum. Any revenue from sales after that is simply gravy.
 
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Dunki

Member
h85ndar19vl21.png


HOLY SHIT. WAht kind of assholes are these people? They are soo done.
 

Dunki

Member
Looks like they really wanted this money so fast and badly hat they did not even check the contract before signing

YpqeyXB.png
 

Teslerum

Member
And I was really looking forward to it......

That its a FIG campaign makes it waaaaaaaay worse. People, your costumers, paid you to make this game a reality. Then this:

h85ndar19vl21.png


Basically admitting that they sold out and don't care about the support of their own fans. May they crash and burn.
 

klosos

Member
Well this game does look like it might scratch the Xcom 2 itch , but i wouldn't buy this game day one regardless what store it s on , ill do what i do with majority of games , ill wait until its on steam then wait for a big sale and then pick it up. no big deal. i don't have Epic game's store installed and i don't intend to either.

also the dev's are coming across as scummy bastard's
 
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Dibbs

Member
I was really looking forward to PP so this is a huge disappointment. Not that the game will be 1y-exclusively on Epic Store really, but the fact that behind all these promises they're just a bunch moneygrabbing liars that obviously doesn't give a shit about their hardcore fans and original backers. I'll take my refund and play some more XCOM 2.
 

Dunki

Member
I was really looking forward to PP so this is a huge disappointment. Not that the game will be 1y-exclusively on Epic Store really, but the fact that behind all these promises they're just a bunch moneygrabbing liars that obviously doesn't give a shit about their hardcore fans and original backers. I'll take my refund and play some more XCOM 2.
Xenonauts 2 . comes out very soon. Maybe give this one a try
 

Futaleufu

Member
This is simply the reality of the situation. Why do you think some of Steam's features are so bad? Like the review writing still not featuring a WYSIWYG editor, workshop lacking lots of features, etc. Reason: They had no competition, there was nobody else who offered anything close, so they had no need to improve.

I dont see reviews nor workshop in the EGS.
 

Dunki

Member


But I thought even if everyone want a refund they would still be in the black. So why now ban people and lie about it?
 
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MMaRsu

Banned
Interesting tweet from Lewie Procter. It seems Epic spent a lot money to get the exclusive, enough for Fig investors to be okay with the switch or perhaps even demanding it.


fig investors werent even in on this decision. It was made behind their backs.

Fuck these greedy developers, we got your money backers now fuck off!
 

Dunki

Member
Q: Did you approach Epic, or did Epic approach you?

A: We approached Epic.





WOW JUST WOW

unbenannt6kkje.jpg
 
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Solomeena

Banned
That's not how language works, but I think we already established your lack in education so I'll forgive you for that.
*pat pat*


Second reading comprehension strike. If you take a third one, I'll have to place you on the bench and read some 4th grader material.
I clearly said in multiple posts here that Steam is the best client with loads of features. I just also said that almost all of these could be even better (and that is objective, they clearly could). And I also say that the reason they aren't better is that Valve has gotten lazy and complacent (just look at Artifact if you don't believe me...). You can argue the last one, if you'd like, but the rest is a given.


Oh, dear... careful there, lest you bust a vein and the tinfoil hat slips.

You sure sound like a previous member here who was permabanned for talking down to people like you are doing. Just a heads up, you don't affect me in any way by talking like you are superior when you are not at all. You invalidate any opinion you have when you talk like you are are a superior person when you sure as hell are not junior.
 

Avasarala

Emoji Emperor
Staff Member
That's not how language works, but I think we already established your lack in education so I'll forgive you for that.
*pat pat*


Second reading comprehension strike. If you take a third one, I'll have to place you on the bench and read some 4th grader material.
I clearly said in multiple posts here that Steam is the best client with loads of features. I just also said that almost all of these could be even better (and that is objective, they clearly could). And I also say that the reason they aren't better is that Valve has gotten lazy and complacent (just look at Artifact if you don't believe me...). You can argue the last one, if you'd like, but the rest is a given.


Oh, dear... careful there, lest you bust a vein and the tinfoil hat slips.



Being that NeoGAF is a globally accessed platform, it is not only narrow-minded but frankly juvenile for you to attack another person's post based purely on language.

Furthermore, if you have nothing further to add to the discussion than condescension, insults, and puerile asterisk-speak, please choose instead to not engage and find a discussion that more suits your interests.

Thank you.
 

wzy

Member
Platform exclusivity is exactly the same shit Valve pulled to get you using the platform in the first place so I can't imagine what this whining is all about. If Kickstarter users getting scammed was any kind of tragedy they'd have all been brought up in the Hague by now.
 
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I think it's better that there is more than one or two platforms to buy games (I'm not thrilled with what Steam has become), but exclusives aren't the way to do it. That takes away choice from the consumers and is antithetical to everything good about having a competing marketplace.

Of course, the only reason I ever installed Steam for the first time is that Half-Life 2 required it. So I guess playing dirty isn't outside of Valve's wheelhouse either.
 

TheSHEEEP

Gold Member
I think it's better that there is more than one or two platforms to buy games (I'm not thrilled with what Steam has become), but exclusives aren't the way to do it. That takes away choice from the consumers and is antithetical to everything good about having a competing marketplace.

Of course, the only reason I ever installed Steam for the first time is that Half-Life 2 required it. So I guess playing dirty isn't outside of Valve's wheelhouse either.
I'm not a fan of exclusivity, either.
But really, what other way is there if the goal is to compete with something as entrenched as Steam?

I just do hope that this does not become a norm, though, and suddenly all major titles will be bound to Steam or Epic.
In that case, I'd hope that software like Playnite or Lutris really take off.

I dont see reviews nor workshop in the EGS.
Reviews are in the works.
Workshop... no official word, afaik. But I'd fully expect something like that if Epic is serious about becoming a big boi like Steam.
To be clear, I definitely think the EGS launched too soon, with too few features. Right now, the comparison between Steam and EGS can make you laugh, at best.
If it remains like that for long, then Epic really don't know what they are doing.

You invalidate any opinion you have when you talk like you are are a superior person when you sure as hell are not junior.
How great, then, that much of what I wrote in this thread is not opinion, but facts and will stand on its own no matter what you or anyone else thinks of me personally.
Btw. It'll invalidate my opinions only in the eyes of those that disagree with me on the matter strongly. Guess we'll never know how many those are...
 
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AlanAwake

Member
Platform exclusivity is exactly the same shit Valve pulled to get you using the platform in the first place so I can't imagine what this whining is all about.

Nonsense. Valve has NEVER paid 3rd party devs and publishers to keep their games away from other storefronts. No one complains that Fortnite is exclusive to Epic's store...
 

Dunki

Member
I think it's better that there is more than one or two platforms to buy games (I'm not thrilled with what Steam has become), but exclusives aren't the way to do it. That takes away choice from the consumers and is antithetical to everything good about having a competing marketplace.

Of course, the only reason I ever installed Steam for the first time is that Half-Life 2 required it. So I guess playing dirty isn't outside of Valve's wheelhouse either.
This is not even the problem here. The problem is that they crowdfunded the game via fans, promised GOG and STEAM keys and then approached EPIC to amke an exclusive deal. While doing his deal they had NO Idea what this would mean. They had to ask if Steam keys are still possible for backers after the backlash. They had to inform themselves how modding works etc.

They have still no idea how to handle things even though they signed the contract with Epic.
 
This is not even the problem here. The problem is that they crowdfunded the game via fans, promised GOG and STEAM keys and then approached EPIC to amke an exclusive deal.
They promised the game on the two viable platforms at the time. The Epic store didn’t even exist at the time. Kickstarter has a long history things changing - versions canceled, problems delivering keys that were promised, and so on.

The problem isn’t that things changed - annoying, but it happens, the problem is Epic moneyhating every big name release coming out. Using that Fortnite money to manipulate developers and control consumers.

They have still no idea how to handle things even though they signed the contract with Epic.
Seriously, when has having a clue ever been something that we’ve gotten from the game industry. It seems extremely weird to expect it from a small kickstarter when much bigger games (like Metro Exodus) are making the same mistaken. Small company needs money, they take money. Big company has money, they bribe people (reviewers, websites, awards ceremonies, game developers).

The problem is not the small guys doing what they have to do to stay afloat, the problem is the big, rich guys using their money to make everybody else dance for them. It’s like we’re in one of those time stop Japanese porn videoed. Epic has the magic button (called money), and our consent is meaningless to them.
 

TheSHEEEP

Gold Member
Small company needs money, they take money. Big company has money, they bribe people (reviewers, websites, awards ceremonies, game developers).

The problem is not the small guys doing what they have to do to stay afloat, the problem is the big, rich guys using their money to make everybody else dance for them. It’s like we’re in one of those time stop Japanese porn videoed. Epic has the magic button (called money), and our consent is meaningless to them.
You are displaying companies that take the exclusivity approach as having no alternative.
Of course they have an alternative. Phoenix Point had a crowdfunding campaign that was supposed to secure their funding for a development time of... what was it, 2 years?
They went over that budget - their own mistake. Should've planned for more budget to begin with.
So they made a deal with Microsoft to get the game on XBox as well - money influx, so they could have enough development time to finish the game. But it wasn't enough - their own mistake.
They also switched engines from Unity to Unreal Engine when in full development - even if you consider that a good move, that costs a hell of a lot of time. And the switch or selecting the wrong engine first is also fully their own mistake.
When they noticed they didn't have enough time, they broke their first promises - like supporting Linux.
Also midway through development, they changed graphics style from a more sinister look to the current one - such a change also doesn't come free. They could have stuck with the old one easy enough, for the sake of not spending more money. But they decided to spend the money - own mistake.

I don't know where you come from, but where I come from, you are supposed to own up to your mistakes and live with the consequences.
It is called integrity and credibility, two things Snapshot has lost entirely by now.
Which in this case would have been cancellation or asking for money again in the same channels they used before, but not by signing exclusive contracts without even asking those that made the whole thing possible to begin with.

Yes, cancellation would have meant people losing their jobs, most of which are not to blame.
But: This is the games industry. As someone who works in it myself (or very close to it, anyway), you don't work there expecting totally secure jobs, that would be entirely delusional. Like pretty much all entertainment media, the games industry is in constant flux. That's not fair, but it is what you sign up for.
Cancellations, looking for new jobs and finding new jobs relatively quickly (compared to other industries) is a common occurance and everyone knows it, especially so for small developers.
As such, I don't see this as sufficient reason to behave in such a way towards those who enabled the endeavor to begin with. At the very, very least, this was communicated catastrophically badly.

I don't want to hear anything about liberals being snowflakes after seeing threads about games being made Epic Store exclusive.
What does that even have to do with anything?
 
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You are displaying companies that take the exclusivity approach as having no alternative.
Of course they have an alternative. Phoenix Point had a crowdfunding campaign that was supposed to secure their funding for a development time of... what was it, 2 years?
They went over that budget - their own mistake. Should've planned for more budget to begin with.
So they made a deal with Microsoft to get the game on XBox as well - money influx, so they could have enough development time to finish the game. But it wasn't enough - their own mistake.
They also switched engines from Unity to Unreal Engine when in full development - even if you consider that a good move, that costs a hell of a lot of time. And the switch or selecting the wrong engine first is also fully their own mistake.
When they noticed they didn't have enough time, they broke their first promises - like supporting Linux.
Also midway through development, they changed graphics style from a more sinister look to the current one - such a change also doesn't come free. They could have stuck with the old one easy enough, for the sake of not spending more money. But they decided to spend the money - own mistake.
A game company actually planning their game's development time and budget properly might as well be a unicorn, but it doesn't exist.

I don't know where you come from, but where I come from, you are supposed to own up to your mistakes and live with the consequences.
I don't know where you come from, but owning up to your own mistakes can sometimes make you legally liable.

Plus, kickstarter is not a game pre-ordering service. It is a crowd sourced venture capital system where the investors (you) are typically rewarded for your participation with the final product (rather than, say, giving you a portion of the profits). Things change during development - a LOT. I'm talking from experience in the game industry. It is unreasonable to expect something that hasn't been developed to not change focus, scale, or goals through early development. How does the saying go? No plan survives an encounter with the enemy.

Could they do it better, sure. Is it frustrating, sure. But you have to understand that you are not pre-ordering a game with kickstarter. It may seem like you are, but you aren't. And and everything promised by a kickstarter is tentative and not legally binding.

It is called integrity and credibility, two things Snapshot has lost entirely by now.
Integrity and credibility are fine, but if they are out of money, they have to cancel the game, shut down the company, and lay off all the employees. When faced with that choice, I'm sure they can live with themselves. That's its own kind of integrity right there. If they decided to prioritize integrity and canceled the game, you'd be even more unhappy and we'd all be robbed of a potentially good game.

Which in this case would have been cancellation or asking for money again in the same channels they used before, but not by signing exclusive contracts without even asking those that made the whole thing possible to begin with.
The problem is that the only people out there willing to fund these things are doing so contingent on exclusivity plans. The big publishers won't fund external companies making small games any more, and venture capitalists have dried up, so the only money out there for them is from Epic. And that's the real shame.

And you and I both know that if they ran a second kickstarter, you'd be in here complaining about that too, just as loudly and angrily.

Yes, cancellation would have meant people losing their jobs, most of which are not to blame.
But: This is the games industry. As someone who works in it myself (or very close to it, anyway), you don't work there expecting totally secure jobs, that would be entirely delusional. Like pretty much all entertainment media, the games industry is in constant flux. That's not fair, but it is what you sign up for.
Cancellations, looking for new jobs and finding new jobs relatively quickly (compared to other industries) is a common occurance and everyone knows it, especially so for small developers.
Are you arguing that they should've fired everybody rather than take what is basically free money, just because you like Steam better? And the employees should be fine with getting fired because that's what they signed up for? WTF?
 

Solomeena

Banned
I'm not a fan of exclusivity, either.


How great, then, that much of what I wrote in this thread is not opinion, but facts and will stand on its own no matter what you or anyone else thinks of me personally.
Btw. It'll invalidate my opinions only in the eyes of those that disagree with me on the matter strongly. Guess we'll never know how many those are...

And yet you are here stanning hard for Epic and China. Second, most of what you have replied to me at least has been garbage personal attacks thinking that you could bully me into accepting your opinions which are not facts.
 

TheSHEEEP

Gold Member
A game company actually planning their game's development time and budget properly might as well be a unicorn, but it doesn't exist.
Except for all the times when it DOES happen, so that statement is just nowhere near true.
You aren't all wrong, of course, plans are bound to go wrong, but that is what you add buffers for. Financial as well as time buffers.

This isn't 1-2 man indie development, either. Afaik, they have a full team including producers.
I've worked with enough teams of that size to know that this can work out and if it doesn't, it is the result of bad planning in 90% of cases.

I don't know where you come from, but owning up to your own mistakes can sometimes make you legally liable.
Don't know what you are implying with that.

Could they do it better, sure. Is it frustrating, sure. But you have to understand that you are not pre-ordering a game with kickstarter. It may seem like you are, but you aren't. And and everything promised by a kickstarter is tentative and not legally binding.
Oh I'm fully aware of that, I have probably backed over 40 projects on various platforms. Mostly, but not only games.
But only because almost nothing from Kickstarter is legally binding, doesn't mean they do not have any obligations of the ethical/moral kind.
Nobody's going to sue them for this move, or cancelling Linux, etc. But it sure as hell has cost them a ton of credibility in my and many others' eyes.
I do think that in this specific case they had a moral obligation to behave a lot different than they did and that they also made a LOT of mistakes that lead to their situation, making this quite different from other projects I backed. Some of which ended up in total failure, and devs acted in an integer way and cancelled the thing or put it on ice.
Obviously subjective, but that's morals for you.

If they decided to prioritize integrity and canceled the game, you'd be even more unhappy and we'd all be robbed of a potentially good game.
That might be your take on it, but do not assume what I'd think.
With so many great games out there, I'd happily take a developer with credibility and integrity over one more game, even if I put money down for it (which I have been refunded by now, but it would be the same even if I hadn't).
But that may be just me valuing personal attributes over having even more games to play.

The problem is that the only people out there willing to fund these things are doing so contingent on exclusivity plans. The big publishers won't fund external companies making small games any more, and venture capitalists have dried up, so the only money out there for them is from Epic. And that's the real shame.
That's a far too broad statement for me to take for granted, but if it were all true, I'd agree.

And you and I both know that if they ran a second kickstarter, you'd be in here complaining about that too, just as loudly and angrily.
You are again assuming things about a person you know nothing about. And of course you assume wrong.
In this specific case I would not back them again as they already broke their promises prior to this event. If you already know you cannot trust someone, why would you give them more money? But I wouldn't go out of my way and complain about it, why would I? It would have been the right thing to do, instead of backstabbing their backers.
However, if this was another developer and they did another campaign and explained well the hows and whys, I wouldn't object to giving them more money. Have done that for other campaigns as well.

Are you arguing that they should've fired everybody rather than take what is basically free money, just because you like Steam better? And the employees should be fine with getting fired because that's what they signed up for? WTF?
If the situation really was running out of money, I would have first asked those that enabled me to develop to begin with, publicly (which would have been Fig investors and likely some others), explained the situation, acknowledged my own parts in the mistakes, declared the possibilities going forward (Epic - thus breaking campaign promises, another campaign, release unfinished, cancellation), declared my own favorite (obv. Epic for them) and then let those decide who, again, allowed you the whole endeavor to begin with.
If they decided that cancellation is best, that's what I would have done, because I feel that is the moral obligation of someone who only does what they do thanks to those people. My own morals are more important to me than laws, I'm more likely to break a law than break a promise. And obviously, I would have explained every employee beforehand that this is a possible outcome scenario if they sign up (not that that isn't self-explanatory in the games biz, but anyway).

What Snapshot did was - with or without urgent need, we do not know - just decide over the heads of everyone who enabled them to begin with, breaking loads of promises (get the key on release on GOG/Steam) in the process and becoming exclusive. Just compare that to what a sensible approach, like the one above, would have been.
And then added insult to injury by going "We did what was best for the community!". They didn't even ASK what the community would have wanted.
If you go the crowdfunding path, you'll have to live with people expecting a much different behavior from you than if you just made the game the "normal" way. And even then, just look at Metro to see that such a deal is never perceived positively. Still, at least they are fulfilling their promises and preorders on Steam, etc.

Second, most of what you have replied to me at least has been garbage personal attacks thinking that you could bully me into accepting your opinions which are not facts.
Then point me at a single thing I declared as fact and you think is an opinion and I will prove to you why they are indeed facts or why you actually have a point.
Btw... I'm not trying to bully you into anything, I know I'll never get you acknowledge some things. Merely had my fun with you and you made it incredibly easy, too. But mama's mad at me now so I'll be super nice!
 
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Fbh

Member
I don't want to hear anything about liberals being snowflakes after seeing threads about games being made Epic Store exclusive.

This is a bit different though since the game was crowdfunded.
There's valid reasons for people to prefer Steam and with GOG being an option it means they were also offering a DRM Free version. If that's the options they promised to the people giving them money to be able to make the game in the first place I think it's shitty that they are now locking the game to the Epic Store, taking away the option to get the game on Steam (which is probably the preferred platform for a large number of backers) and outright cancelling plans (at least at launch) for a DRM free version.

They are offering refunds which is the right thing to do but as a game that couldn't have been made without the backers it's still shitty to be like "sorry we didn't deliver what we promised. Here is your money back, thanks for the free loan".

With that said, the anger should go to the devs and not Epic. All they did was make an offer.
 
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Fuz

Banned
I wonder if Gollop realizes how damaging this is to the whole crowfunding scene. How many people are willing to risk again to bet on a horse and later on see that horse becoming part of the EGS stables?
 

Dibbs

Member
I wonder if Gollop realizes how damaging this is to the whole crowfunding scene. How many people are willing to risk again to bet on a horse and later on see that horse becoming part of the EGS stables?

He doesn't seem to regret it at all.
 

Lanrutcon

Member
I wonder if the project wasn't in jeopardy and Gollop saw this as the only out. Wonder if their projected sales were shit, or if they were having cash issues.
 

Futaleufu

Member
I wonder if the project wasn't in jeopardy and Gollop saw this as the only out. Wonder if their projected sales were shit, or if they were having cash issues.

Remember that kickstarter that spent the funds on booze, blow and hookers? Anything can happen in crowdfunded projects because there is no liability nor responsibility.
 
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