• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Crysis 2: First PS3 footage | PS3 Multiplayer Demo March 16th

L

LyR

Banned
Truespeed said:
You must be talking about Christophe's quote. I'm more inclined to believe a person that has actually programmed for the Cell, has an idea of the actual utilization reported by their diagnostic tools and is a member of one of the most talented development studio's in the world that has consistently delivered on every console game they've shipped (in HD, no less). 100% utilization of theoretical performance is impossible, but 30% of theoretical is entirely believable. But, then I'm more inclined to believe an actual programmer than a circus ring leader.
Click to expand...

yea, the gaming industry is full of trustworthy people, they never lie to their customer, it's not like they want to sell their product, be it a game or the whole graphics engine, why would they abuse their naive fanbase who knows shit about the technical side of things

for instance, there are people on gaf who thing MLAA is the second coming of christ, the best AA solution eva !!1 or really think MLAA = 16xMSAA, the truth is far from it, it's not even a good solution at all... the only thing worse is QAA, it has some positive points like it doesn't blur the picture like QAA and it offloads the AA job from GPU to the CPU which saves a bit of video ram, but here is the thing, it barely works in motion, just check Killzone2 (QAA) vs. Killzone3 (MLAA), the later one has much more noticeable aliasing

MLAA
motion_comparison_mlaa.gif

MSAA
motion_comparison_msaa.gif


point is the PS3 isn't good at doing AA because of the FP16-Rendertargets bottleneck

ok back ontopic:
fiction - truth

one of many examples

and you should learn to be a bit more pessimistic, your dose of "I dig every shit they throw at me" is unhealthy

but the truth is, the average customer/gamer doesn't care at all about those things, only the enthusiasts care (I really don't like the term core/hardcoregamer), and they're the minority. But if you care, at least try to get your facts right and don't believe everything a salesman tells you.

// reading my post days after is painful, god my english sucks big time
 
N

nib95

Banned
LyR, your post would hold more merit except you missed out LBP2 and GOW3 which use MLAA much more effectively, in motion to boot. And the reason MLAA is so commended is because of the resource saving it offers up. It essentially offers up (at it's current form) AA equivalent to around 4xAA. Now how many console games do you know that use 4xAA? Not many, reason why? The strain on resources that the current consoles can't really easily afford.

Also, I'd say only a few levels in KZ3 really show the shimmering negative of KZ3 (more so the one's early on). Other segments, like in these levels, show off near flawless AA despite often crazy geometrical complexity and amounts on screen.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5174/5482381185_d8b29f69a0_o.jpg

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5095/5482982378_ec8625ab42_o.jpg

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5219/5483630514_4111098f37_o.jpg

Now compare that to some of the AA apparent in the Crysis 2 MP demo.

http://i52.tinypic.com/mh7ry1.jpg

It's a huge difference. Honestly, for PS3 games, I think all devs should start implementing MLAA. It's just far superior to current offerings in terms of finding that balance between compromising resources and maintaining the quality of IQ.

Anyways, apologies for going OT. I guess the AA implementation is an important aspect of Crysis's technical consideration mind. Is the kind of AA used with Crysis PS3 confirmed?
 
LiquidMetal14

LiquidMetal14

hide your water-based mammals
StuBurns said:
Awesome post.
Click to expand...
Except it means shit because it's been proven to be an excellent solution for PS3 dev.

I think nib understands this quite well. When you get in high resolutions, it becomes less of an advantage but clearly when you design games with something like MLAA in mind, it makes a difference. Not some filter that might help. Don't get me wrong, MLAA seems to work at times on PC but I would not recommended it as a solution unless more games start using it properly.

On the PC side, there are better alternatives but they cost more. MLAA seems to be cheap but effective, that's the point.
 
S

StuBurns

Banned
LiquidMetal14 said:
Except it means shit because it's been proven to be an excellent solution for PS3 dev.

I think nib understands this quite well. When you get in high resolutions, it becomes less of an advantage but clearly when you design games with something like MLAA in mind, it makes a difference. Not some filter that might help. Don't get me wrong, MLAA seems to work at times on PC but I would not recommended it as a solution unless more games start using it properly.

On the PC side, there are better alternatives but they cost more. MLAA seems to be cheap but effective, that's the point.
Click to expand...
Well personally outside of GoW3, I don't think MLAA is very impressive on PS3.
 
Z

Zen

Banned
LyR said:
yea, the gaming industry is full of trustworthy people, they never lie to their customer, it's not like they want to sell their product, be it a game or the whole graphics engine, why would they abuse their naive fanbase who knows shit about on technical side of things

for instance, there are people on gaf who thing MLAA is the second coming of christ, the best AA solution eva !!1 or really think MLAA = 16xMSAA, the truth is far from it, it's not even a good solution at all... the only thing worse is QAA, it has some positive points like it doesn't blur the picture like QAA and it offloads the AA job from GPU to the CPU which saves a bit of video ram, but here is the thing, it barley works in motion, just check Killzone2 (QAA) vs. Killzone3 (MLAA), the later one has much more noticeable aliasing
Click to expand...

You're ignoring instances of MLAA being used to great effect, with Killzone 3 being the worst implementation of it thus far, probably. Just because it doesn't jive with your personal tastes on AA solutions, doesn't mean that we haven't see it used very well, and it doesn't mean that the cost benefit ratio isn't favorable simply because you don't prefer said solution.

The shimmering you're referring to is hardly standard between all the games that use it; of course a solution like MLAA could have greater variability in quality of implementation from one game to the next, this also depends on the type of geometry that the implementation is dealing with.

At the end of the day you can get great AA results from it and you can get poor AA results from it, more than the GPU based techniques, and that means absolutely nothing except that it's as good or poor as the implementation in a specific title.

From a cost perspective it's fantastic on a system like the PS3, and it can frequently be high quality from a performance perspective as well.
 
LiquidMetal14

LiquidMetal14

hide your water-based mammals
StuBurns said:
Well personally outside of GoW3, I don't think MLAA is very impressive on PS3.
Click to expand...
I think it makes a big difference in all the games that use it. And again, it doesn't cost as much but when properly used, it is an excellent solution to a limited platform like the PS3. There are many better AA solutions but most of them cost more per frame.
 
N

nib95

Banned
StuBurns said:
Well personally outside of GoW3, I don't think MLAA is very impressive on PS3.
Click to expand...

So just out of curiosity, speaking consoles only, what games in a similar ballpark of visual fidelity DO you think have impressive AA implementation?

To me, KZ3, LBP2 and GOW3 offer some of this gens best. KZ3 less so, but then again the geometry is complex and extremely punishing, with much linearity on show, so it makes sense it might not pull it off as well. See the LoT/DF tech analysis that mentions how the jungle level is near flawless in AA. My guess is MLAA is just more effective on organic shapes, though as KZ3 shows, it's still highly effective with linear geometry too.

Anyway guys, I don't know if this discussion is regarded as OT. But it would be nice to have a thread we could discuss such things. If there already is one, I'm not sure which it is.
 
S

StuBurns

Banned
nib95 said:
So just out of curiosity, speaking consoles only, what games in a similar ballpark of visual fidelity DO you think have impressive AA implementation?

To me, KZ3, LBP2 and GOW3 offer some of this gens best. KZ3 less so, but then again the geometry is complex and extremely punishing, with much linearity on show, so it makes sense it might not pull it off as well. See the LoT/DF tech analysis that mentions how the jungle level is near flawless in AA. My guess is MLAA is just more effective on organic shapes, though as KZ3 shows, it's still highly effective with linear geometry too.
Click to expand...
Well I think KZ2 looks better than KZ3.

I do think GoW3 looks probably the best, but it also has nice motion blur and a very nice framerate so it's hard for me to exactly pinpoint what is causing the wonderful image quality.
 
Z

Zen

Banned
Honestly I'd peg that at the feet of lighting conditions, coloring, and the greater amounts of motion blur in Killzone 2 than any specific AA solution at work. Killzone 3 just didn't have as much time in the oven and it shows (right down to the MLAA which isn't as polished as we've seen in other games).
 
Truespeed

Truespeed

Member
LyR said:
yea, the gaming industry is full of trustworthy people, they never lie to their customer, it's not like they want to sell their product, be it a game or the whole graphics engine, why would they abuse their naive fanbase who knows shit about on technical side of things

for instance, there are people on gaf who thing MLAA is the second coming of christ, the best AA solution eva !!1 or really think MLAA = 16xMSAA, the truth is far from it, it's not even a good solution at all... the only thing worse is QAA, it has some positive points like it doesn't blur the picture like QAA and it offloads the AA job from GPU to the CPU which saves a bit of video ram, but here is the thing, it barley works in motion, just check Killzone2 (QAA) vs. Killzone3 (MLAA), the later one has much more noticeable aliasing

point is the PS3 isn't good at doing AA because of the FP16-Rendertargets bottleneck

ok back ontopic:
fiction - truth

one of many examples

and you should learn to be a bit more pessimistic, your dose of "I dig every shit they throw at me" is unhealthy

but the truth is, the average customer/gamer doesn't care at all about those things, only the enthusiasts care (I really don't like the term core/hardcoregamer), and they're the minority. But if you care, at least try to get your facts right and don't believe everything a salesman tells you.
Click to expand...

In that case it should be a piece of cake for you to rattle off the names of some programmers that have out right lied about their game, engine or tech. Spare me the community managers, marketing people or out of touch studio heads that have no idea what their programmers are actually working on. The point is, trust is earned so I tend to trust people that talk about what they actually do and back it up by consistently delivering what they talk about. And Christophe, or anyone in a similar position, isn't going to jeopardize their well earned reputation by going bat shit insane and start lying about their game. Yes, some people do have integrity.

As for MLAA - yes a lot of people were excited about it, including me, and when we learned more about it reality started to set in. MLAA has its uses. Is it the panacea of teh jaggies? No - which is probably why you don't see it in every game, even though the GOW3 MLAA code is in the SDK. Can it produce incredible AA in certain situations? Certainly. Is it significantly better than QAA? I think so, but then I personally can't stand blurry images. I would rather have no AA and a crisp detailed picture than a Vaseline filter. It's a subjective thing, but that's just me.

Also, I'm going to mercifully ignore those PS3 Ghostbusters links because it's a text book metaphorical example of distributing a joke throughout a chain of people. By the time it reaches the last person it's become something completely unrecognizable. Those clowns had no idea what the programmers were working on or what challenges they were experiencing.
 
H

HomerSimpson-Man

Member
*Reads LyR*

Would seem more convincing if I haven't already seen the Little Big Planet 2, God of War 3, and Killzone 3 with Sony's implementations of MLAA with great results. With the first two actually forgoing MSAA and the results were noticeable.

2xMSAA
lbp_aa_old.jpg


MLAA
lbp_aa.jpg


These pics basically say it all really.

AA styles have different foibles. What else is new?

MSAA effects degrade in high contrast lighting in play at sharp edges like in GT5, which already uses MSAAx4. QAA softens image quality and texture output. Temperal AA ghosts. And supersampling simply kills performance.

Sony's techniques gives great performance and great output. I see no reason not to use it.
 
S

StuBurns

Banned
It looks the same.

EDIT: That is to say the same as the 360 version.

I've seen them all now, thanks to SolidSnakex for posting.

I don't see me playing the MP much at all, but it looks fine, I suspect the 360 and PS3 version of the SP will be practically identical.
 
J

JB1981

Member
X

X-Frame

Member
Just came from playing the 360 demo .. that PS3 version doesn't look any different, does it?

Though I have bad eyes for differences in games. Still, this makes me happy ..
 
C

Commanche Raisin Toast

Member
HomerSimpson-Man said:
MP demo, MP footage....

MP mode wasn't exactly the appeal of the first Crysis game, dammit!

I want that hot single player campaign loving!
Click to expand...

yeah it pisses me off how so many big titles these days give zero info on SP until the last second, but give us tons and tons and TONS of MP info and videos and previews and marketing and blah blah blah.

i downloaded the PC demo today on steam but haven't played it. is it MP or SP? should i delete it? :p
 
H

HomerSimpson-Man

Member
Commanche Raisin Toast said:
yeah it pisses me off how so many big titles these days give zero info on SP until the last second, but give us tons and tons and TONS of MP info and videos and previews and marketing and blah blah blah.

i downloaded the PC demo today on steam but haven't played it. is it MP or SP? should i delete it? :p
Click to expand...

It was MP. :(
 
L

LyR

Banned
nib95 said:
So just out of curiosity, speaking consoles only, what games in a similar ballpark of visual fidelity DO you think have impressive AA implementation?

To me, KZ3, LBP2 and GOW3 offer some of this gens best. KZ3 less so, but then again the geometry is complex and extremely punishing, with much linearity on show, so it makes sense it might not pull it off as well. See the LoT/DF tech analysis that mentions how the jungle level is near flawless in AA. My guess is MLAA is just more effective on organic shapes, though as KZ3 shows, it's still highly effective with linear geometry too.
Click to expand...

sorry to reply late,

the reason for the inconsisteny in KZ3 is with sub-pixel aliasing, where by any polygon edges smaller than the size of a pixel (this is a sub-pixel) receive absolutely no AA coverage at all. One of the major drawbacks to MLAA.

example

and someone asked rhetorically "... and how many games do 4xAA on consoles", here is your answer: many 360 games (well at least more than ps3 games with MLAA)
 
Nizz

Nizz

Member
SolidSnakex said:
IGN just posted a bunch of multiplayer videos from the PS3 version

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXowjcQ2kUU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0exCqOZxoE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aw9vJkXR8is
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfuF9B5xCdA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpAonmTQOwo
Click to expand...
Thanks for posting these man. I've been looking for footage since GDC had begun.

RoboPlato said:
I think it's sad but funny that it seems that the PS3 version is more respectable of a port for that platform than the PC version. I really thought the PS3 version was going to be a trash port for a while there.
Click to expand...
Watching the youtube links I am surprised as hell that the PS3 version looks just like the 360 version. I really was expecting the worst.
 
S

StuBurns

Banned
I'm certainly looking forward to the single player more, but it's nice to see the MP is fine. Some very bizarre decisions were made regarding what should and shouldn't be shown of this game.
 
Nizz

Nizz

Member
fna84 said:
Do the console versions still have that laggy aim feeling?
Click to expand...
I know someone mentioned in the 360 demo thread that the controls felt more responsive. I also remember watching a youtube video of someone playing the second 360 demo and them mentioning feeling the controls had been tightened up.
 
K

KKRT00

Member
LyR said:
sorry to reply late,

the reason for the inconsisteny in KZ3 is with sub-pixel aliasing, where by any polygon edges smaller than the size of a pixel (this is a sub-pixel) receive absolutely no AA coverage at all. One of the major drawbacks to MLAA.

example

and someone asked rhetorically "... and how many games do 4xAA on consoles", here is your answer: many 360 games (well at least more than ps3 games with MLAA)
Click to expand...
Problem with sub-pixel geometry? So what? Its not like 4x MSAA clean many of those too and still has many edges that are more aliased than MLAA's one that shimmers a lot in motion. Even 8x MSAA doesnt resolve many shimmering and there is always shader aliasing that breaks image quality.

http://www.iryoku.com/mlaa/#downloads

You've got here GPU MLAA implementation that is compared to 8x MSAA.
Yes, MLAA footage shimmers more, but still MSAA leaves many edges untouched and shimmers a lot too. And Sony's implementation is more advanced and games are build around it.

Yeah, MLAA has drawbacks, but its cheap and effective, in many cases is even more effective than 4x MSAA.
MLAA with SRAA has good future, especially because they are scaling up well with resolution

Ps. And about those list of games with 4x MSAA, most of them are from the beginning of the console cycles and its logical that MLAA list is shorter, MLAA SDK was added only ~8 months ago.
 
Nizz

Nizz

Member
X-Frame said:
Well, IGN claims the PS3 is very poor compared to the 360.

IGN: Crysis 2 - The Rock, the Hard Place, and the PS3

:(
Click to expand...
Fuck, that is fucking disappointing. Is he talking about the MP demo of the game from those vids? I don't get it, the game looks fine in the videos I've watched.

I was feeling pretty good about the game too. Close enough to maybe pre-order it but after this article now I feel I have to wait till after the game is out and Lens of Truth/Digital Foundry do their thing and compare the versions.

God dammit....
 
A

Afrikan

Member
With so many games coming out for the PS3, it saves me some money. I mean its not like they were trying to take advantage of its features in the first place. So if it is true that they can't even get it to run on par with the 360 version, then why should they deserve a sell?

edit- don't' get me wrong, I respect that they didn't gimp the 360 version even more just so it would match their PS3 version.
 
C

canadian crowe

Member
I just preordered this today too...

I actually don't care about the graphics at all, but if the controls are off that might warrant a wait and see approach. EA games have been dropping like rocks in price lately, so it wouldn't be that long before I got a cheap copy.
 
Nizz

Nizz

Member
Afrikan said:
that's ok, with so many games coming out for the PS3, it saves me some money. I mean its not like they were trying to take advantage of its features in the first place. So if it is true that they can't even get it to run on par with the 360 version, then why should they deserve a sell?

edit- don't' get me wrong, I respect that they didn't gimp the 360 version even more just so it would match their PS3 version.
Click to expand...
Dude, I'm so confused now. I just read a preview for the game over at G4, and aside from them saying the textures looked a little muddy they said the game ran flawlessly...

G4 said:
Visually, the game ran flawlessly, but I couldn't help thinking that some of the textures were a little dull for some reason. It might have been the TVs, because I noticed the text on the menu screens had a little ghosting going on too, so that could explain it. Don't get me wrong. The game is a stunner, but it was just something I noticed.
Click to expand...

http://www.g4tv.com/games/ps3/61979...52/Crysis-2-PS3-Multiplayer-Hands-On-Preview/

Who do I believe?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

  • Poll
SONY/SIE: The Balance Of Chasing Margins, Multiplat Expansion, And Maximizing The Console
Opinion Business Analysis 2 3
101
8K
vaibhavpisal replied
  • Poll
Rate The Game Awards 2023
News 2 3
107
6K
Shakka43 replied
Do you consider Returnal as Sony's best first party game released so far on the PS5?
Opinion 2 3 4
165
8K
Hohenheim replied
[Insider Gaming] Inside Ubisoft – From Low Morale To Internal Tensions
Game Dev
26
2K
BacklashWave534 replied
Fans of Japanese adventure games/mystery game fans, we shall feast in 2024!
10
3K
Nok Su Kow replied
Top Bottom