I think this whole thing already had some impact concerning E3 awards.
-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
Crystal Dynamics talks about their Tomb Raider rape and protection comments... again
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
Metalmurphy
Member
So I'm posting in this thread, but somehow I should have read some other lost thread before hand. Ok.
Sorry about that bud.
I was trying to get the message across that their explanations only made more people offended - but didn't it mostly start with the guy telling Kotaku "he rapes her"?
More Fun To Compute
Member
If they had said nothing and instead the people who made that shotgun to the head game had said something dumb and creepy then things would be different.
timetokill
Banned
No, no... dig UP, stupid!
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
One day video games won't be viewed by the mainstream as entertainment for children and this type of thing won't be such a big deal. But today is not that day.
On CD's end, they should be aware that they're dealing with a delicate issue and avoid releasing out of context footage to be misinterpreted by the media. This is just Resident Evil 5 and Medal of Honor all over again. The PR is just making it worse.
The only response should have been "wait to play the game so you can see the whole context of the situation." The continuous responses to what is already a dumb case of overreaction is just making it worse and keeping in the headlines of the click seeking blogs.
Projectjustice
Banned
Rape sells! This game will end up being the most successful Tomb Raider game this generation.
The producer of Heavy Rain never said that enemies in his game were trying to rape that supporting character, and that, that character's reaction throughout the game was built on that potential assault taking place.
That's the issue here with Tomb Raider. Not the hint of a sexual assault, but that it was used to justify Lara's growth as a character (in this case, her first murder) and notion that further danger's on the island could end in rape for her or other women in her party on the island.
CD's inability to be able to better explain the situation and confront what they're trying to say with this game - choosing instead to run away from the topic altogether - is just the cherry on top of this rapidly melting sundae.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Good devs do it thru gameplay and pacing. Bad devs have to do it thru PR.
It's an issue because it's a cheap method to "build" a character. And by many it's viewed as sexist, i.e. what Kotaku implied there - if it were a male protagonist, that scene would never happened and CD would have to find another way to make the character stronger.
cutmeamango
Banned
They should just formulate one standard response and answer every question related with it.
-"So, this new Tomb Raider is more of an Uncharted type of third person shooter?"
-"Yes, there is the depiction of an attempt of rape. Yes we do expect that the user will be sympathetic towards the character as to be concerned if the character suffers damage through out the journey, and no, the attempt of rape isn't the hook for that, Lara's personality is."
-"So, this new Tomb Raider is more of an Uncharted type of third person shooter?"
-"Yes, there is the depiction of an attempt of rape. Yes we do expect that the user will be sympathetic towards the character as to be concerned if the character suffers damage through out the journey, and no, the attempt of rape isn't the hook for that, Lara's personality is."
What many people seen to get wrong with the situation, is that many people do not have a prolem with the almost rape scene alone. It is the attitude and the philosophy behind it. The developers believe, that male players will not be able to project them self into a woman and therefore see the need to build up a feeling of protection. Lara does not escape the guy, who tries to rape her, her self, no, we "protect" her. This is a philosophy inside the developers head, which will very certainly to be find everywhere in the game.
Lara Croft did develop in an sex symbol in gaming, but still had a big fanbase with female players. Like Indianer Jones for man, she was a power fantasy for woman. Beautiful, rich, strong, independent, smart and always on adventure. The games at the beginning never went too much into much character, so that people could project something of them self into her (like Crono or Link). With this new Lara woman will not really be able to project them self into her, because the developers don't want this to happen. An horrible dession if you want to make a great character story.
In a good movie, book, comic, etc. you build up a likable character, who has roots and principes we understand and share. With this we can project our self into a character and we feel with them, what they feel. If something bad happens to them, we want them to get out of it. Because we feel such a big bound with the character, that if he could get out of the situation, so could we. That's the reason it is so much fun to see teenager get killed in horror-movies. Those character will be shown as unlikable, so that there dead looks like Karma. To protect some one could be really unique in games (even so it happens in theaters), but rape and woman inpowerment are not easy topics, even in other medias, and the developers just do not look competent enough to tackle it.
Lara Croft did develop in an sex symbol in gaming, but still had a big fanbase with female players. Like Indianer Jones for man, she was a power fantasy for woman. Beautiful, rich, strong, independent, smart and always on adventure. The games at the beginning never went too much into much character, so that people could project something of them self into her (like Crono or Link). With this new Lara woman will not really be able to project them self into her, because the developers don't want this to happen. An horrible dession if you want to make a great character story.
In a good movie, book, comic, etc. you build up a likable character, who has roots and principes we understand and share. With this we can project our self into a character and we feel with them, what they feel. If something bad happens to them, we want them to get out of it. Because we feel such a big bound with the character, that if he could get out of the situation, so could we. That's the reason it is so much fun to see teenager get killed in horror-movies. Those character will be shown as unlikable, so that there dead looks like Karma. To protect some one could be really unique in games (even so it happens in theaters), but rape and woman inpowerment are not easy topics, even in other medias, and the developers just do not look competent enough to tackle it.
ThisWreckage
Banned
Bad publicity is better than none at all, particularly for a high profile release. Secretly, they're loving this. Free publicity and whatnot.
AgentChris
Member
Crystal Dynamics/Tomb Raider is now synonymous with the word rape. Good job CD, good job...
Reading the interview, I don't think the interviewer was trying to imply anything. They could "smell" a story behind what the developer was trying to talk around. The meat of the Kotaku story came from all the unwarranted fumbling and odd evasiveness on the part of CD, not the (supposedly) attempted rape scene itself in the game.
As the OP says, no one thought it was a very big deal until CD made it into one by getting all shifty and talking about players wanting to "protect" Lara. Suggests to me that they didn't think all that much about what they were doing--either while making the game or while making the media rounds.
Mama Robotnik
Member
I liked it better when Crystal Dynamics made those games in which the main character had no penis or vagina. He was a cowled blue monster thing. They were good. Things were simpler back then. They should go back to that.
But the reader knows all about the PR person in the background because the article spells out what the PR doofus is saying.......
How is this in any way helpful to Crystal Dynamics?
I don't know about the rest of you but I just kind of shrug at the silliness of it all.
Games - serious business apparently.
babyghost853
Member
Just wait until the first sexual predator is caught, who just so happens to have a copy of the game. CNN,FOX, they will all have a feild day with it, "video games made him do it", it will definitely be linked to the game somehow.
XANDER CAGE
Member
Good gravy, they need better publicists. They need better game writers, too, but holy hell their backpedaling is getting comical. How many times have they "clarified" the producer's comments now?
CarbonatedFalcon
Member
Damn, they just don't know HOW TO STOP TALKING, do they?
Figured they would've learned their lesson by now and just quit before digging themselves further down the hole. Any gains to be had at this point simply aren't worth it over staying silent.
Figured they would've learned their lesson by now and just quit before digging themselves further down the hole. Any gains to be had at this point simply aren't worth it over staying silent.
NaughtyCalibur
Member
They might as well just delete the scene now. It's like they don't want to acknowledge its existence at this point.
They should just stop talking about it, leave the scene in, and those that don't want to play it, can simply not buy it.
Speedymanic
Banned
Why do they suppose the same wouldn't apply to a male character?
obviously the scene would go through minor changes to account for a male character, but I see no reason why the same theme can't apply to a male character.
hydrophilic attack
Member
The most offensive part of the trailer was the dubstep music.
At this point, if they remove or tone down this scene, or take out any other scenes related to subjects they're afraid might offend a small group of people, then I will not under any circumstances buy this game or play it unless it's borrowed, rented, or used.
This has gone from a day 1 purchase to something I'm becoming tepid about.
Keep doing what you were doing, guys, because it was looking great.
This has gone from a day 1 purchase to something I'm becoming tepid about.
Keep doing what you were doing, guys, because it was looking great.
Anticitizen One
Banned
Crystal Dynamics is gonna run themselves into the ground if they keep going on about this shit
Not in this case. They're doing interviews with outlets that only the core audience read. The idea that bad press is better than no press only works if the actual content you're selling is controversial (ie. Hot Coffee). That's not the case here. CD is simply reacting to the spill they created by running their mouths.
I think we can all agree that what has been shown thus far of the gameplay we've all played a dozen times already this gen.
"Cheap"? I can hardly think of a more deep and unsettling circumstance. If something were going to drive a person to kill another human being, I can think of few other apt motivations.
Sexist? If it had been a man on another man, then it would be viewed as homophobic. If it had been a woman on a man, then it would be viewed as comedic or not a serious enough situation for the male protagonist to want to bludgeon her to death. A man forcing himself on a woman, however, is ubiquitously considered a vile act of which will cause pretty much everyone to get behind the main character.
Honestly, I never really gave the part much thought. I had to actually watch the e3 demo again to catch the part they were talking about because I had already forgotten it. I'm actually really surprised the developers have given the complainers as much attention as they have.
PrinceOfApathy
Banned
Indeed if they remove the scene I would be extremely, extremely disappointed, but I would still purchase the game since it looks stunning.
However if they do remove it, it would elude to one thing, and one thing only, it would confirm they are spineless curs.
I'm sure the scene is going to be removed now, the only person with any sense was the original designer who said more or less she was going to be raped. Once the word "rape" got out and our juvenile "journalists" got hold of it and then caused a backlash among the PC crowd, Crystal Dynamics have been back peddling ever since. They are doing their best to come out of this situation as squeaky clean as possible without offending anyone. It's almost desperate how they are doing everything in their power under the sun to shift themselves away from the controversy.
This industry is pedantic and childish. They should just remove it because the press nor the purchasers are mature enough to handle this, which is a shame.
However if they do remove it, it would elude to one thing, and one thing only, it would confirm they are spineless curs.
I'm sure the scene is going to be removed now, the only person with any sense was the original designer who said more or less she was going to be raped. Once the word "rape" got out and our juvenile "journalists" got hold of it and then caused a backlash among the PC crowd, Crystal Dynamics have been back peddling ever since. They are doing their best to come out of this situation as squeaky clean as possible without offending anyone. It's almost desperate how they are doing everything in their power under the sun to shift themselves away from the controversy.
This industry is pedantic and childish. They should just remove it because the press nor the purchasers are mature enough to handle this, which is a shame.
XANDER CAGE
Member
The issue isn't that the audience isn't "mature enough to handle it," quite the opposite. From what we've seen, the developers aren't mature enough to properly handle this kind of content in their games.
Fess
Member
What's interesting witj all this is that nobody cares if the main character shoot someone or chops some limbs off, but fondling and groping and anything regarded as sexual in any way always gets a huge ammount of attention. It's quite odd to say the least.
XANDER CAGE
Member
Not really the issue here.
EDIT - to elaborate, the problem is not a puritanical rejection of sexual content, but eyebrow raising comments from the producers and clips from trailers that make Lara's portrayal as a character rather tacky and exploitative.
dragonelite
Member
I still dont get he was trying to rape her but she attacked him back killed him and discovers her killer instinct.
But where are the fucking journalist that were catering to bioware for saying we the fans are childish to demand a better product. Bla bla bla games are art but now they are complaining or am I confused and miss the point.
thecouncil
Banned
havent you made them dig that hole? if you didnt complain about it in the first place, it wouldve been as much of a non-issue as it should be. but now they have to try to correct the initial comments because of all the hell that was raised.
Rad I have an excuse to post a link to this rad article on gamautra now
http://gamasutra.com/view/news/173227/Opinion_Video_games_and_Male_Gaze__are_we_men_or_boys.php
http://gamasutra.com/view/news/173227/Opinion_Video_games_and_Male_Gaze__are_we_men_or_boys.php
timetokill
Banned
Riposte
Member
There is nothing special about "this kind of content" though. I've come to the conclusion this is my problem with this whole ordeal: it isn't an ordeal and the problem with developer "maturity" is that they've proven unable to express themselves in a sensible, but resilient manner (either appearing too up their own ass and making things sound worse or acting like cowards and backpedaling). Ultimately this game is not about rape nor have we been led to believe Lara Croft will or can be raped in it. What we got is a scene which allows a previously novice college student to transform into a justified killer, possibly setting the stage for other factors like the villains from then on treating her like an actual threat (i.e. the threat of rape no longer being an issue when they just want to put a bullet in her). On the matter on how developers present pixels gathered in a way that evokes women I'm being entirely neutral (so that makes me neutral a portion of the conversation going on now). However what I can see is that there are individuals who want to have certain conversations so badly they will jump at any near-chance to have it. I don't see the point of the excuse, especially when this isn't even Law and Order SVU.
I'm recalling that this scene is the first time Lara kills anyone, if I'm wrong then that changes the reason, but doesn't make this any more significant.
So if I have one thing to say about the maturity of developers (which is what I'm actually interested in) it is that they need to be at least as confident in whatever they are pushing as the typical network television producer (shows where sex crimes and battered women are actual themes) if they don't want to look like clowns. This extends to the game journos as well who treats this like sacred ground in a fair-weather fashion.
Exactly. All the bizarre double-talk, euphemisms, and backpedaling just makes them look like a rich white man being asked if he thinks it's "racist" to enjoy the Cosby Show. It's fairly innocuous content. All they had to do was say "no" or nothing, and move on. It was only when they started running at the mouth that CD started to look bad.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Exactly. It's a question of delivery; You can tell a joke with the filthiest, most reprehensible punchline and it can still be funny, so long as you set it up correctly, and deliver it perfectly. If you do it right, you can justify why the punchline ends like it does with the brilliant setup. It's why when Louis C.K. or Chris Rock get onstage and tell a joke, it plays hilariously, and when your boorish office manager tells the same joke, his dumb ass gets reported to H.R. - David Brent doesn't have that delivery, and he doesn't understand the "Why" of his joke.
People are angry at Crystal Dynamics because it doesn't seem like they understand WHY they chose attempted rape as the motivation for Lara Croft's transformation into Lara Croft. There are multiple paths they could have taken to explain how the woman in this game ostensibly becomes the woman we're all a little more familiar with: A robbery gone wrong, the murder of a beloved colleague, an injustice beyond her control that she played a part in, or yeah - an attempted sexual assault that pushes her to kill in self-defense. Lots of options there, all with their positives and negatives. So why did they go with the sexual assault option? Based on their own statements, they went with that one so as to give the (presumptively) male player a reason to want to protect her.
That's not a particularly good reason to choose that option. Their set-up is too weak to justify their "punchline" if you will. And when they got called on it, and its inherent sexism, their response was to take the advice of PR flacks who advised that they try to redefine the act they specifically inserted into their game, as opposed to just owning their shit. And I think they did that primarily because the alternative is to admit they didn't think very much about the decision before or after they made it.
Cutting it out at this point isn't cowardly, especially if they can replace the scene with something that makes better sense from a character/thematic standpoint.
People keep pointing out that films do this all the time, and that's kind of the double edged sword that Steven Boone was getting at (and getting smashed for) in both his initial and follow up article (http://www.capitalnewyork.com/artic...eo-games-should-aim-higher-michael-bay-movies) - if games are going to go after movie-like aesthetics more and more, they open themselves up to movie-like critical analysis, and while a lot of movies do employ rape as a storytelling device, some of those movies justify that inclusion better than the others do. If games are going to wade into that area of storytelling sophistication, they have to actually remember the "sophistication" part. Crystal Dynamics is catching shit because they didn't think their setup through, and they don't have any good reason for that.
Sarcasm.
Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
Okay I think i understand.....I thought people were upset with Lara almost getting raped.
IF Lara was swapped out for Lars Croft and the bandit was as sexually frustrated as I imagine he is, im sure he would have still asked Lars to squeal like a pig.
Its more along the lines of them making Lara intentionally weak during this scene so that guy gamers will feel something for her?
The statements from the CD guys are pretty bad, but i dont think the initial outrage was ever even warranted......just tell it like it is.
I pray they dont decide to do some serious editing to the game just because of this.....
Wait is this the real reason some people are upset?
Can a chick not have moments of weakness while still being essentially a strong willed and independent character overall....how many scenes out of the movie have Lara being this weak....and does she overcome all these moments by being awesome??
Lactose_Intolerant
Member
They already said they had to take out the T-Rex rape scene because of the backlash.
To be honest, a few people have backpedaled on exactly what they were objecting to. To be fair, it could just be a different group of people since there was no consensus on the issue to begin with.
PrinceOfApathy
Banned
BS. They have a perfectly good reason to go with that narrative. If they had so wished. A woman trapped on an island with deranged, and probably sexually repressed psychopaths is a valid train of thought to follow, that eventually at some point, she would be sexually assaulted. I don't buy into the nonsense that it has to be Oscar worthy to follow through on that narrative.