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[Neiteio]

I've seen numerous footage of unedited gameplay, it's an Uncharted clone.

Eh, even if it is an Uncharted clone, that's not a bad template to copy. Just make sure the aiming is smooth from the start and the enemies aren't non-reactive bullet sponges. And more forgiving platforming would be nice, as in -actually- platforming and not leaping just so from the exact spot at the exact time, which is what burdened UC with the "automated" feel.

 

[Baller. PhD]

LOL, they really just need to shut up about this entire thing. The way they are handling it is laughable.

However, the way certain people on the Internet have been offended by their comments is also laughable. The devs of this game made some statements that are common sense and entirely expected, but because they actually SAID THEM out loud all the Internet fanboys are throwing a hissy. Get real dudes...

 

[Odrion]

Eh, even if it is an Uncharted clone, that's not a bad template to copy.

I know a better template to copy: Tomb Raider.

 

[GillianSeed79]

People are angry at Crystal Dynamics because it doesn't seem like they understand WHY they chose attempted rape as the motivation for Lara Croft's transformation into Lara Croft. There are multiple paths they could have taken to explain how the woman in this game ostensibly becomes the woman we're all a little more familiar with: A robbery gone wrong, the murder of a beloved colleague, an injustice beyond her control that she played a part in, or yeah - an attempted sexual assault that pushes her to kill in self-defense. Lots of options there, all with their positives and negatives. So why did they go with the sexual assault option? Based on their own statements, they went with that one so as to give the (presumptively) male player a reason to want to protect her.

There is nothing wrong with attempted rape or even rape as a plot device in a medium to lay the foundation for a revenge-style plot line. Why is murder or a robbery gone wrong okay, but attempted rape not? The reason I think people are getting offended is the whole "protection"" thing. The whole bad guy licks the face of the female protagonist before getting kicked in the balls is a common trope in films and tv. I think where they fail here is that if you fail the idea is that she is actually raped. My biggest problem is that every video I've seen of this game is like an extended BDSM film or torture porn because Laura is getting beaten left and right.

The thing is women have power fantasies too. With this it seems like it's specifically aimed at men and unless we protect Laura she'll be raped. What I guess they don't realize is that there are plenty of women who don't need protection from big old white Knight burly men who would love to have the power fantasy of blowing some attempted rapists nads off.

That and I'm just worried that this means that any story teller in this industry will look at this and say attempted rape, sexual assault, or any other mature topic and be like "nope" that's goes too far. Shit is taboo. Can't cross that line. Yeah, it's dumb the way they've framed that scene, but I'm not against, per se, more realistic character motivations.

 

[cutmeamango]

I know a better template to copy: Tomb Raider.

They want better sales, or else they'll have to tomb raid for artifacts themselves.

 

[GQman2121]

Violently shotgunning heads off in Last of Us - Cheer worthy
Mild Rape Scene that ends before anything at all happens - OH MY GOD HOW INNAPROPRIATE!! THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!, PR disaster.
Hmm..

Heh, what's even more disturbing about The Last of Us is the guy even begged for mercy before his jaw was relocated to the opposite side of the room. I think that was the touch that made the room of cheering crazies seem even more sick and fucked up than all the violence that preceded it. But as you note, in Backwards Land (GAF, the media at large), -that- doesn't elicit nearly as much outrage as... this. A woman finding herself in a situation that many women -- strong women included -- have found themselves in before, unfortunately, and if anything it actually provides context for how an otherwise normal girl finds herself having to fight. Much ado about nothing, I say.

Congrats, both of you have completely missed the point of the entire conversation. Way to boil it down to exactly what no one who understands the issue is concerned with. Bravo.....

 

[Valnen]

I've seen numerous footage of unedited gameplay. It's an Uncharted clone.

Watching videos and playing are two very, very, very different things.

 

[Faber College]

Come on guys. I believe they were cheering because the game looked fantastic, not because a guy got his jaw blown off with a shot-gun.

You could be right, but I felt kind of uncomfortable watching that (the cheering) and slightly embarressed for them there. Yeah that game looks cool, but everyone should recognise that excited cheering was an inappropriate response to the vid. The kind of thing that fuels PTA moms and banning of video games actually happening.

Whose opinion are you presenting here? Because the reaction is certainly far from what you're dramatising here. And the comparison to The Last of Us doesn't make sense unless you're accusing, whoever it is you're addressing your post to, of hypocrisy.

Further case in point - I saw one of them Giantbomb recaps, and it was probably brought up elsewhere too, where they were complaining about Ubisoft showing tits with Far Cry 3, dumbly discussing if it were crossing the line. No discussion whether all the insane violence at Sony had crossed the line. Weird double standard here is what Im saying. Guess video game nerds being angry and destructive and afraid of women is probable cause of this double standard

 

[CorvoSol]

I actually did this once. One of my friends was trying to impress a girl, so he offered to dig this septic pit for her family . . . then three of us dug, and he did not.


AAAAaaaaaAAAaaaaanyway. What games HAVE handled rape well? The only game I've ever played that even brings it up is FFT, and that's only a momentary comment made by a character who is less than crucial to the overall plot.

 

[SapientWolf]

You could be right, but I felt kind of uncomfortable watching that (the cheering) and slightly embarressed for them there. Yeah that game looks cool, but everyone should recognise that excited cheering was an inappropriate response to the vid. The kind of thing that fuels PTA moms and banning of video games actually happening.

The cheering makes more sense in context. The game is structured in a way that makes even one on one encounters feel like life or death struggles. It's the complete antithesis of Uncharted. They were cheering because the player character overcame the odds and won the struggle. There was a really good discussion about it in the E3 Weekend Confirmed.

 

[Lancehead]

I actually did this once. One of my friends was trying to impress a girl, so he offered to dig this septic pit for her family . . . then three of us dug, and he did not.


AAAAaaaaaAAAaaaaanyway. What games HAVE handled rape well? The only game I've ever played that even brings it up is FFT, and that's only a momentary comment made by a character who is less than crucial to the overall plot.

Fallout New Vegas has a rape victim who has PTSD. It's part of a side quest (or two) but it was handled pretty well.

 

[Faber College]

The cheering makes more sense in context. The game is structured in a way that makes even one on one encounters feel like life or death struggles. It's the complete antithesis of Uncharted. They were cheering because the player character overcame the odds and won the struggle. There was a really good discussion about it in the E3 Weekend Confirmed.

It was an extremely realistic scene they showed, one that I would think/hope was supposed to be a very dramatic scene in the actual game. While playing that game I dont think youre meant to be having enough fun to cheer about it, I think youre meant to feel a bit shocked. In context it makes even less sense..

 

[Collider]

Rape and Kill.

Whats the problem exactly?

 

[Freshmaker]

WE ARE NOT OFFENDED BECAUSE THERE IS RAPE IN YOUR GAME JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE USING IT AS A CHEAP TOOL TO MAKE THE PLAYER RELATE TO A WEAK CHARACTER THAT "WE WANT TO PROTECT" EVEN THO ITS SUPPOSED TO BE STRONG-WILLED AND INDEPENDENT.

Fuck, this studio sucks. Im kinda hoping to see Square jumping in this controversy, it would be so hilariously bad.

So they basically saw Other M and got jealous/inspired?

 

[Dan Yo]

Fallout New Vegas has a rape victim who has PTSD. It's part of a side quest (or two) but it was handled pretty well.

Alice: Madness Returns.

 

[Sblargh]

I'm not even angry, this thing has gone to the ammusing spectrum of things. I would actually pretend to be angry just to see how far it goes.

 

[Enco]

OH.MY.GOD!!!!!!

Enough already!!!!!

STOP IT!!!!!!

I don't care about all this drama.... do whatever you want with the game and Lara, just give me something makes the TR fan in me smiles in the end happy with the game he just finished.

Dear god this is getting BORING :

This.

God damn this has been blown out of proportion. Get over it already and move on. Jesus.

 

[SapientWolf]

It was an extremely realistic scene they showed, one that I would think/hope was supposed to be a very dramatic scene in the actual game. While playing that game I dont think youre meant to be having enough fun to cheer about it, I think youre meant to feel a bit shocked. In context it makes even less sense..

They were cheering because he went up against a tough challenge and nailed it. It was the big payoff. If it was a live tv show the applause sign would have went up. It's not like shotgun gore is a brand new feature.

The recurring themes here are audience and context. The final scene in a movie I won't spoil is basically the hero beating up an old guy in a wheel chair. Imagine how horrible that would look out of context.

 

[RagnarokX]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b97zJxKEqAk

It's not the attempted rape itself that's the problem, at least for most people. It's the comment that the player needs to protect Lara from getting raped. It diminishes her as a character. And does she really need that as an important motivator to become who she becomes? Plus the amount of random injuries Lara gets in this game seems excessive. You can't build up skill to avoid a rope breaking and falling on a nail.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

There is nothing wrong with attempted rape or even rape as a plot device in a medium to lay the foundation for a revenge-style plot line.

I've said as much a couple times in the thread, which you didn't quote. Again - it's entirely about how well you set that up, and whether the punchline you deliver capitalizes well on that setup.

I'm just worried that this means that any story teller in this industry will look at this and say attempted rape, sexual assault, or any other mature topic and be like "nope" that's goes too far. Shit is taboo. Can't cross that line. Yeah, it's dumb the way they've framed that scene, but I'm not against, per se, more realistic character motivations.

Are you really worried about that? Does the idea of developers steering clear of rape as a motivator in their game plotting really worry you on a base level? Especially considering the multitude of motivations that could work just as well in a storytelling situation? Is there anything inherently wrong with a storyteller looking at their story and going "maybe I don't need to use rape here?"

Again - you're not necessarily disagreeing with me: I think the way they framed that scene, and the way they explained why they used that framework is dumb. I think there are ways to make that particular framing work, and I don't think Crystal Dynamics ever put in the effort to discover and implement those ways, based on their own explanation of the situation, before they turned over the debacle to PR people.

 

[CrisKre]

I've said as much a couple times in the thread, which you didn't quote. Again - it's entirely about how well you set that up, and whether the punchline you deliver capitalizes well on that setup.



Are you really worried about that? Does the idea of developers steering clear of rape as a motivator in their game plotting really worry you on a base level? Especially considering the multitude of motivations that could work just as well in a storytelling situation? Is there anything inherently wrong with a storyteller looking at their story and going "maybe I don't need to use rape here?"

Again - you're not necessarily disagreeing with me: I think the way they framed that scene, and the way they explained why they used that framework is dumb. I think there are ways to make that particular framing work, and I don't think Crystal Dynamics ever put in the effort to discover and implement those ways, based on their own explanation of the situation, before they turned over the debacle to PR people.

Are you trying to imply that a game no one has fully played in the media or in the enthusiast circles didn't set up a scene correctly? I don't think so.

And again, the explanation wasn't very specific at all. As other people have stated, myself included, it could also be read that the natural reaction to seeing a female be sexually assaulted is that of feeling protective. A reaction that is completely normal and rational at that.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Are you trying to imply that a game no one has fully played in the media or in the enthusiast circles didn't set up a scene correctly?

Had the person explaining the motivation behind including that scene not explained how and why that was included, it might be a different situation right now. But he did, and PR was called in to fix said situation. Like I said earlier: Sexism in gaming can and will be forgiven. Fucked, but true. Trying too hard to look edgy and cool and being caught failing? People aren't as forgiving. That's likely why you're seeing what you're seeing out of Crystal Dynamics.

And again, the explanation wasn't very specific at all. As other people have stated, myself included, it could also be read that the natural reaction to seeing a female be sexually assaulted is that of feeling protective. A reaction that is completely normal and rational at that.

Okay, sure. But considering Lara Croft's characterization over almost two decades of existence, two decades that didn't necessitate the need to invoke male protectiveness over weaker female characters; shifting that focus needs to have a pretty decent set-up and delivery. This appears to have neither, and the explanation on the part of people working in the company isn't helping to dissuade that perception in the slightest.

Using attempted rape to goose feelings of protectiveness over the main character of a game, a character you already play as, making intent to protect is already maximized as a matter of basic gameplay? Bad call, Ripley. That's a bad call.

 

[Fess]

It's not the attempted rape itself that's the problem, at least for most people. It's the comment that the player needs to protect Lara from getting raped. It diminishes her as a character. Plus the amount of random injuries Lara gets in this game seems excessive. You can't build up skill to avoid a rope breaking and falling on a nail.

They're building her up from scratch so I guess they thought they had to do something really terrible to her otherwise the violence and killing later on would be totally uncalled for.
Maybe rape was a bad choice, but since they start with a seemingly innocent teenager what are their choices to turn her into the fearless cold blooded killing machine she becomes later on? Kill her child, best friend, parents, siblings, dog? Pure survival instincts won't be enough, then she would just run, it needs to be bad enough to trigger the primitive part of her mind.

 

[CrisKre]

Had the person explaining the motivation behind including that scene not explained how and why that was included, it might be a different situation right now. But he did, and PR was called in to fix said situation. Like I said earlier: Sexism in gaming can and will be forgiven. Fucked, but true. Trying too hard to look edgy and cool and being caught failing? People aren't as forgiving. That's likely why you're seeing what you're seeing out of Crystal Dynamics.



Okay, sure. But considering Lara Croft's characterization over almost two decades of existence, two decades that didn't necessitate the need to invoke male protectiveness over weaker female characters; shifting that focus needs to have a pretty decent set-up and delivery. This appears to have neither, and the explanation on the part of people working in the company isn't helping to dissuade that perception in the slightest.

Using attempted rape to goose feelings of protectiveness over the main character of a game, a character you already play as, making intent to protect is already maximized as a matter of basic gameplay? Bad call, Ripley. That's a bad call.

Look, I really have a hard time comprehending... It seems some people are not liking the direction CD is going with the character. Its a more serious, thematically more realistic Tomb Raider by the looks of it. I get it! numerous times have I not liked where developers took some of my most liked characters.

It does seem a little extreme for me to call this sexist though. If anything, in my opinion, Lara of old was more sexist with her huge boobs and macho bad-ass attitude that would constitute a 15 y/o wet dream.

And i will say again, this isn't Lara of old, this is something new, but the way I took the comments was something more akin to:
"imagine your sister is being subject to some kind of sexual harassment. Wouldn't a natural reaction to that be that you wanna break the guy's jaw?"

Is that such a crazy proposition? that a male player may naturally have those feelings while playing that particular scene? Is he at fault for stating the obvious? Oh, but political correctness and all.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Look, I really have a hard time comprehending... It seems some people are not liking the direction CD is going with the character. Its a more serious, thematically more realistic Tomb Raider by the looks of it. I get it! numerous times have I not liked where developers took some of my most liked characters.

It does seem a little extreme for me to call this sexist though. If anything, in my opinion, Lara of old was more sexist with her huge boobs and macho bad-ass attitude that would constitute a 15 y/o wet dream.

Is that such a crazy proposition? that a male player may naturally have those feelings while playing that particular scene? Is he at fault for stating the obvious? Oh, but political correctness and all.

Hey, I don't disagree that previous versions of Lara don't come pre-packaged with their own variations on blatant sexism - the well known story of Lara's ever increasing breast size is proof enough of that. But again - if you're going to try to tell a story cinematic in nature, you're opening yourself to cinematic analysis of your storytelling, and the explanation implied that people at CD hadn't put in the effort to justify their choice in storytelling device. Crystal Dynamics appears to have not only not done their homework, but hired a PR flack to explain why you misread what it is they turned in. It's mealy-mouthed, wormy bullshit.

Calling "aw, political correctness" feels like a cop-out in more than a couple ways. Not the least of which being "political correctness" is a catchphrase/buzzword that lost most of its intended meaning somewhere around 1999.

 

[CrisKre]

Hey, I don't disagree that previous versions of Lara don't come pre-packaged with their own variations on blatant sexism - the well known story of Lara's ever increasing breast size is proof enough of that. But again - if you're going to try to tell a story cinematic in nature, you're opening yourself to cinematic analysis of your storytelling, and the explanation implied that people at CD hadn't put in the effort to justify their choice in storytelling device. Crystal Dynamics appears to have not only not done their homework, but hired a PR flack to explain why you misread what it is they turned in. It's mealy-mouthed, wormy bullshit.

Calling "aw, political correctness" feels like a cop-out in more than a couple ways. Not the least of which being "political correctness" is a catchphrase/buzzword that lost most of its intended meaning somewhere around 1999.

Now political correctness is a catchphrase? no. That term describes a very real attitude and phenomenon.

And how are you so certain about the cinemtic nature of this game? Have you played it? Not to mention that cinemaric analysis is an opinion. And for the record, as far as I have seen of the game, I think I may really like where they are going with it. You happen to, as far as you have seen, not. And are going up in arms about it. Lets call a spade a spade.

 

[disappeared]

Silent Hill 2 addressed rape, between a father and daughter, blatantly and to a point where you see that revenge is a dish served sometimes lukewarm (I won't spoil what happens). Nobody batted an eye, because the narrative strongly supported it. The reason why the whole shit-fit with this game exists is because Tomb Raider isn't building on some important narrative. It's a goddamned bullet-point.

 

[JaseC]

WE ARE NOT OFFENDED BECAUSE THERE IS RAPE IN YOUR GAME JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE USING IT AS A CHEAP TOOL TO MAKE THE PLAYER RELATE TO A WEAK CHARACTER THAT "WE WANT TO PROTECT" EVEN THO ITS SUPPOSED TO BE STRONG-WILLED AND INDEPENDENT.

Fuck, this studio sucks. Im kinda hoping to see Square jumping in this controversy, it would be so hilariously bad.

"HD character development is hard."

 

[CrisKre]

Silent Hill 2 addressed rape, between a father and daughter, blatantly and to a point where you see that revenge is a dish served sometimes lukewarm (I won't spoil what happens). Nobody batted an eye, because the narrative supported it. The reason why the whole shit-fit with this game exists is because Tomb Raider isn't building on some important narrative. It's a goddamned bullet-point.

That is called jumping to conclusions. Nobody has seen the character or story progression in this game.

 

[RagnarokX]

They're building her up from scratch so I guess they thought they had to do something really terrible to her otherwise the violence and killing later on would be totally uncalled for.
Maybe rape was a bad choice, but since they start with a seemingly innocent teenager what are their choices to turn her into the fearless cold blooded killing machine she becomes later on? Kill her child, best friend, parents, siblings, dog? Pure survival instincts won't be enough, then she would just run, it needs to be bad enough to trigger the primitive part of her mind.

The old games already built her character... twice... without rape.

Core games: she was a student who loved archeology and adventuring. Got a taste for tomb raiding in Cambodia with Von Croy where she raced him to an artifact.

CD games: plane crashed in the mountains, had to platform to survive, shit went down. Also had a traumatic experience with a friend in a tomb.

 

[disappeared]

That is called jumping to conclusions. Nobody has seen the character or story progression in this game.

And why not? Shouldn't CD/Eidos/Square have already affirmed the narrative of Tomb Raider, if it's apparently so crucial, and benefits Lara's development as a character? SH2 unfolded its narrative with the first trailer they ever released. What's up, Tomb Raider?

 

[BurnOutBrighter]

Just when this is just about to not be a thing anymore, they go and make it a thing again.

Oh well, even if it's awful publicity, it's still publicity.

 

[CrisKre]

And why not? Shouldn't CD/Eidos/Square have already affirmed the narrative of Tomb Raider, if it's apparently so crucial, and benefits Lara's development as a character? SH2 unfolded its narrative with the first trailer they ever released. What's up, Tomb Raider?

Judging the narrative is inherent of playing the game. That is intrensical to the very definition of narrative and character progression. What is your point?

 

[Bobby Roberts]

Now political correctness is a catchphrase?

Of course it is.

. And for the record, as far as I have seen of the game, I think I may really like where they are going with it. You happen to, as far as you have seen, not. And are going up in arms about it. Lets call a spade a spade.

Do you even really know what "Let's call a spade a spade" even means in this situation? What are we calling a spade here? People reading attempted rape in the origin story for one of the most successful female action heroes in modern media, as flimsy and sexist in nature, based on employee's open explanation of said plotting? Call that shit a spade, then, I guess.

The old games already built her character... twice... without rape.

There's this, too.

 

[CrisKre]

Of course it is.


Do you even really know what "Let's call a spade a spade" even means in this situation? What are we calling a spade here? People reading attempted rape as a plot point in the origin story for one of the most successful female action heroes in modern media, as flimsy and sexist in nature, based on employee's open explanation of said plotting? Call that shit a spade, then, I guess.



There's this, too.

No, it may be used as a catchphrase but it has a very real meaning and points to a very real phenomenon. You deny the existence of political correctness all together?


We are calling a spade the fact that some people are not liking the direction this character is going and are blowing this particular subject out of proportion, like I was pointiong out in that statement. You don't like the subject of sexual assault being used in the context of Lara Croft, that doesn't make that plotpoint sexist and flimsy in nature at all.

 

[Bobby Roberts]

No, it may be used as a catchphrase but it has a very real meaning and points to a very real phenomenon. You deny the existence of political correctness all together?

I find in most cases, the invocation of "political correctness" is most often used as a means to stick up for "real talk" that typically substitutes for "being a dick." Basically - people bemoan "Political Correctness" as a means for preventing the expression of shitty, unfair thoughts in as blunt/terrible a means possible without threat of repercussion.

We are calling a spade the fact that some people are not liking the direction this character is going and are blowing this particular subject out of proportion, like I was pointiong out in that statement. You don't like the subject of sexual assault being used in the context of Lara Croft, that doesn't make that plotpoint sexist and flimsy in nature at all.

None of what you just wrote makes any sense to me. What proportion do you (subjectively) believe to be exploded? Why do you believe this reasoning for including sexual assault/exploitation to be valid re: a character who hasn't needed such to be resonant in pop-culture/gaming culture beforehand?

 

[bhlaab]

I think I'm going to have to agree with my fellow white males on this one. We've all been blowing this "rape" thing WAYY out of proportion. It's time to move on and start debating the merits of 30fps vs 60fps again. You know, stuff that is actually important to the video game industry.

 

[Reuenthal]

I just want someone to ask them about the platforming and puzzles and if there is any, and press them on that and them to reply and have a discussion about that. Not that there is no room for this discussion and this thread as well, as there was a room for the previous thread about this too.

 

[CrisKre]

I find in most cases, the invocation of "political correctness" is most often used as a means to stick up for "real talk" that typically substitutes for "being a dick." Basically - people bemoan "Political Correctness" as a means for preventing the expression of shitty, unfair thoughts in as blunt/terrible a means possible without threat of repercussion.



None of what you just wrote makes any sense to me. What proportion do you (subjectively) believe to be exploded? Why do you believe this reasoning for including sexual assault/exploitation to be valid re: a character who hasn't needed such to be resonant in pop-culture/gaming culture beforehand?

You really think political correctness only evokes a means for people to be dicks? Look, im an argentinean livin in the us, and for me it certainly is much, much more. Political correctness seems to undermine many, many serious discussions to protect people's distorted sensibilities about a lot of serious matters and prevents even pointing out clear differencess and realities for fear of repercusions. It makes people phony and conversations sterile when misused.

I find the subject at hand to be valid in the context and tone of the game they are developing (i.e. a strong willed attractive girl stranded in an island with mercenaries). That is my opinion. And it is equaly as valid as yours (more so for me since it is, well, mine) And they are making a reboot of the damn franchise! Of course it needed it (one way or another).

 

[The Anti-Monitor]

You're having trouble responding because you are waffling. Assuming that you didn't read any of the other threads dedicated to this issue, in this thread alone posters have articulated clearly why the footage was offensive, why the EP's comments regarding rape/protection were offensive, why the PR backtracking that's been happening of late has also offended some folks - all here and easy to read, understand and discuss.

Then you waltz in with some nonsense about anybody can find anything offensive, as if that has any sort of relevance here. It's as if you didn't even bother to read any of the comments before spewing reductionist horseshit.

Can't make it much clearer than that.

This. Honestly they should just shut up, they just keep making this issue worse than it should be.

There is nothing wrong with attempted rape or even rape as a plot device in a medium to lay the foundation for a revenge-style plot line. Why is murder or a robbery gone wrong okay, but attempted rape not?

Because it's trite and overdone and it feels like every female character needs to have rape somehow tacked in her origin.

Not that it's inherently bad, definitely not offensive, it's just tiring. Please do new stuff. The problem comes from what surrounds the scene, not the scene itself.

I think I'm going to have to agree with my fellow white males on this one. We've all been blowing this "rape" thing WAYY out of proportion. It's time to move on and start debating the merits of 30fps vs 60fps again. You know, stuff that is actually important to the video game industry.

Thank you.

Hey if it doesn't affect the privileged majority, it's not really a problem. But let us ask later why it's hard for other people to get into gaming, why it's seen still as a mancave hobby, and why it's still seen as a childish medium.

Let's also ignore why said minorities have those problems and mock their points with reductionists arguments and justify it all with some evopsych bullshit. Damn those politically correct drones, taking away MAH rights.

 

[sonicmj1]

Rad I have an excuse to post a link to this rad article on gamautra now

http://gamasutra.com/view/news/173227/Opinion_Video_games_and_Male_Gaze__are_we_men_or_boys.php

This is a good article!

I've already attempted serious discussion about this far beyond the point where it made sense, and now I'm just tired of Eidos raising and re-raising the issue. This never should have been a subject. This scene shouldn't have been shown at a trade show, the producer shouldn't have said what he said, and people in the company shouldn't have tried to walk it back on at least three separate occasions. Three!

I think it's kind of tasteless and exploitative, but in the grand scheme of things, that's super minor, and that seems like it's about the limit of what most people believe who take offense to it. It'd be no big deal if they just stopped talking.

 

[CrisKre]

This.


Because it's trite and overdone and it feels like every female character needs to have rape somehow tacked in her origin.

Not that it's inherently bad, definitely not offensive, it's just tiring. Please do new stuff. The problem comes from what surrounds the scene, not the scene itself.


Thank you.

Hey if it doesn't affect the privileged majority, it's not really a problem. But let us ask later why it's hard for other people to get into gaming, why it's seen still as a mancave hobby, and why it's still seen as a childish medium.

Let's also ignore why said minorities have those problems and mock their points with reductionists arguments and justify it all with some evopsych bullshit. Damn those politically correct drones, taking away MAH rights.

What other femaile characters have rape as an origin story in games? I might have missed them. I recall most female characters do have huge boobs, tiny wastes and exude masculine attributes and no vulnerability at all. Rings a bell?

Lets wait to see what audience this new game finds and how critically accaimed it becomes before we start calling it limiting in appeal and a great example of why games as a medium are ridiculed.

And what minorities are you referring to? How is this any worse than the last portrayal of Lara as a character? Different, yes. Worse, not a chance.

Is it the fact that they stated players may feel protective of the character that made feminists feel so outraged? How in the world is that a bad thing? Is it so shameful? Is not like Lara doesn't defend herself in the game.

 

[Wallach]

Well, the fires of debate get stoked constantly every time the PR tries to unsuccessfully walk this back. The horse is out of the barn, and the game would have been far better served if 1) this clip and associated statements hadn't been shown/made, or 2) they showed it, owned it, and stuck to their guns.

It seems really stupid to me that they were willing to actually own this enough to create it and put it in the game, but can't be fucked to defend it the second people actually want to talk about it. If you were this scared of the potential reaction how the fuck did you convince yourselves to put it in the game? Honestly one of the dumbest PR situations I've seen in years.

 

[fabricated backlash]

Issues with the footage (not mine, necessarily, just collating from previous threads) came down to inclusion on a rape scenario in an IP that previously served as a decent alternative to traditional male power fantasies in games - one that both women and men could get into.

Seen as mods decided to change my Username based on my comments on the last of these TR threads, and reading up on this one, this explanation here just strikes me as odd.

Tomb Raider of all franchises to be an alternative to male power fantasies? I absolutely don't share this view at all. Lara from the beginning was marketed and presented within all official material as a virtual sex doll. From the completely oversexualized poses and outfits, to her outlandish proportions (something for everyone: long legs, huge breasts, full lips).
Even if she ran around killing men, she was still the portrayal of male sex fantasies combined into one disgusting mesh of fetishes.
What's more insulting is that she allways stays asexual, completely unaware of her own sexuality. A battlemonk in skimpy outfits.

Tomb Raider and especially Lara Croft the character is probably the epitome of male power fantasies. Just in reverse, where even during the conceptual stages this dominance was applied to almost every aspect of the character.


The second they tried to move away from that, the series took a nosedive in quality and popularity. Gamers rejected the new complex Lara for various reasons. Many might have just grown up beyond a point where they found this weird maniristic representation of objectified women to no longer be arousing or pleasing, many more were simply annoyed at the decreasing quality of the series, and with this also came an even smaller group who disliked the narrative changes.

I'm also not here to complain about my new Name, I find it fitting since I still stand by my point that the initial outrage over the footage and that rape in itself should not be implied in games still stands.
I would agree with most people who voiced concern about Rape being a theme explored by a series as shallow, sexist and devoid of depth as Tomb Raider. I myself doubt that the game will treat this moment with the weight it should deserve, but I also won't go on to demand them cutting it. As shallow as it might end up. It's a creative expression and to censor it out of offended sensibilities is just outright disgusting in itself.

Reminds me of all the essays about how Maus is disgusting and offensive because it "gasp" talks about the holocaust in a comic... you know, Comics, those childish, sexist throwaway crap that is completely unable to convey anything complex beyond a Mouse and a Duck being silly... oh and Porn of course.

Being offended does not give you the moral high ground or any justification to impose your view on others.


End Rant.


Btw, the PR team is digging and digging. whatever this started out, the PR really sealed the deal with a display of utter incompetence.

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

I think it is a positive thing for games which are aimed at an adult audience to explore more than violence for the sake of violence. However, talking up the fact that attempted rape is brought up in the game, as if it is a "feature" to shout about in a bullet-point on the back of the box, is pathetic.

 

[sonicmj1]

I would agree with most people who voiced concern about Rape being a theme explored by a series as shallow, sexist and devoid of depth as Tomb Raider. I myself doubt that the game will treat this moment with the weight it should deserve, but I also won't go on to demand them cutting it. As shallow as it might end up. It's a creative expression and to censor it out of offended sensibilities is just outright disgusting in itself.

Reminds me of all the essays about how Maus is disgusting and offensive because it "gasp" talks about the holocaust in a comic... you know, Comics, those childish, sexist throwaway crap that is completely unable to convey anything complex beyond a Mouse and a Duck being silly... oh and Porn of course.

Being offended does not give you the moral high ground or any justification to impose your view on others.


End Rant.

Can you point to specific examples of people demanding that the moment be cut, or asking for censorship (as in, supporting with force the suppression of a game that includes attempted rape)? I haven't seen any complaints on this forum that are worded that strongly, unless something like wanting online co-op in Dragon's Dogma is a demand for censorship of creative expression.

I also hadn't heard about people writing elaborate essays vilifying the portrayal of the Holocaust in Maus, but I honestly haven't looked.

 

[The Anti-Monitor]

What other femaile characters have rape as an origin story in games? I might have missed them. I recall most female characters do have huge boobs, tiny wastes and exude masculine attributes and no vulnerability at all. Rings a bell?

Characters defined only by their gender? Yeah, that's the big problem. And in gaming? Not a lot, but because there's not a lot of strong women with well thought out backstories. Everywhere else it's a tired and overused cliche.

How was Lara previously exuding masculine attributes? Her personality was completely gender neutral. Until writers in games can write feminity and masulinity both in positive good light and realism, a gender neutral personality is perfectly okay.

Lets wait to see what audience this new game finds and how critically accaimed it becomes before we start calling it limiting in appeal and a great example of why games as a medium are ridiculed.

I don't understand the "until the game is released we can't speak about it!". We judge it from what they've shown, because that's the point of marketing. The only reason they keep going back at it is because they realize they have been marketing the game wrong.

And what minorities are you referring to? How is this any worse than the last portrayal of Lara as a character? Different, yes. Worse, not a chance.

Not worse because you say so?

An unrealistic body happens all the time in gaming, at least she was still capable and her personality in no way limited who she was. Her body wasn't meant to be realistic before, her personality however is now. She was far from what the average female character should be, but she was better.

And are we gonna think now that women aren't a minority in hardcore gaming?

Is it the fact that they stated players may feel protective of the character that made feminists feel so outraged? How in the world is that a bad thing? Is it so shameful? Is not like Lara doesn't defend herself in the game.

Yes, it is. Give me a female character I'd like to be, not one male gamers want to protect.

When you have enough of the former, you can do the later. But until that day, expect me and others complaining about it, because it is a bad thing for us.

And stop saying "outrage" in order to make the other side look irrational. Nobody is outraged. We're tired, which is a very different thing.

 

[firehawk12]

AAAAaaaaaAAAaaaaanyway. What games HAVE handled rape well? The only game I've ever played that even brings it up is FFT, and that's only a momentary comment made by a character who is less than crucial to the overall plot.

Dragon Age Origins has a rape in the city elf origin story. The problem is that the engine is so shitty that the only thing that changed after the rape is that he voice actress had to try to be traumatize and over act to try to explain that she was sexually assaulted.

 

[MMaRsu]

Jesus christ wtf is up with these guys and this stupid bullshit?

Just say

Yes Lara does almost get raped, and she has to fight them off and kill them.

That's it, I mean why fucking dance around the subject? Who even cares anyway? I mean it's a damn videogame. You're going to be sitting in waist high cover and shooting fools left and right!

 

[Captain Ganz]

I can't wait for this sexism/rape culture trend in games journalism to blow over. Anyone that thinks these are done for anything more than just hits are deluding themselves, to be honest. it's the Resident Evil 5 effect all over again - we've just moved from supposed racism to supposed sexism.