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Cyberpunk 2077 HDR is Broken on PS5 & Xbox Series X Regardless of HDR Settings

JeloSWE

Member
Vincent at HDTVTest analyses Cyberpunk 2077 HDR implementation.
  • Black floor is raised alongside peak luminance gains, creating a washed out image.
  • It looks like the HDR is just converted from SDR like how RDR2 did.
  • This is is likely affecting PC as well but HDTVTest has not tried it yet.



The saga continues, here is a follow-up video on the raised black levels on version 1.05. (2020-12-20)
 
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Very broken, terrible washed out brightness. I had to toggle off HDR10 in S|X settings all together..a whole new game now, IQ looks very clean now.

Next Patch will fix this anyway.
 

vpance

Member
Toggled HDR on/off a few times. The picture pops more in SDR because of the deeper blacks.

Depending on your TV you can get a pretty good pseudo HDR effect in other ways. DC Low worked pretty well for me.

CDPR, SMH.
 
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I have to say on Series X I'm finding the textures and game overall lacking in the IQ department. There is grunt in a Series X, I'm thinking of halting my playthrough until the next gen patch is out.
 

Rodolink

Member
it's terrible on ps4 too, i was messing like an hour with the settings of the game and tv and could never make it look good. Turned off looks like 100x better fpr some reason.
 

Rayderism

Member
Playing on PS4 Pro. Yes, HDR in Cyberpunk 2077 is....wrong. I go into HDR mode, adjust settings to where I thought they looked good. I tweaked and tweaked on those HDR settings many times to look as good as possible. But every time I switched back to SDR, it ALWAYS looked better. Every. Single. Time.

HDR in CP2077 is just wrong. I just put it back in SDR and quit even trying.
 

TGO

Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
So how does this work? PS5 has HDR automatically applied in some respect to games.
Doesn't disabling it in the game leave the PS5 HDR still applied to the image?
 

dotnotbot

Member
So how does this work? PS5 has HDR automatically applied in some respect to games.
Doesn't disabling it in the game leave the PS5 HDR still applied to the image?

Yes, for the full correct image you need to turn it off in PS5s settings as well.
 

Rikkori

Member
This is false. This guy is an idiot who doesn't understand how a) light works; b) how GI and graphics in general work; and c) what the creator's intent is. In fact, it's laughable he's complaining about perfect blacks & HDR but meanwhile he's testing in the plaza surrounded by bright lights & reflective surfaces all around - what a moron!

HDR looks great but you shouldn't expect perfect blacks because the way light works is that you will never have perfect black unless you're in a vacuum, and since the game has a global illumination system on at all times, and you're always surrounded by numerous light sources, then it will always be illuminated. On top of that the general cyberpunk aesthetic is towards 'haziness', that's why you see a lot of smog or smoke effects in all the works (eg very obviously in Bladerunner), and CP2077 is no exception.

Sure, you could create perfect blacks if you wanted to, but then that would veer into the more cartoony side, and that's not the Cyberpunk aesthetic and certainly not how the game wants to portray itself.
 
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DanEON

Member
This is false. This guy is an idiot who doesn't understand how a) light works; b) how GI and graphics in general work; and c) what the creator's intent is. In fact, it's laughable he's complaining about perfect blacks & HDR but meanwhile he's testing in the plaza surrounded by bright lights & reflective surfaces all around - what a moron!

HDR looks great but you shouldn't expect perfect blacks because the way light works is that you will never have perfect black unless you're in a vacuum, and since the game has a global illumination system on at all times, and you're always surrounded by numerous light sources, then it will always be illuminated. On top of that the general cyberpunk aesthetic is towards 'haziness', that's why you see a lot of smog or smoke effects in all the works (eg very obviously in Bladerunner), and CP2077 is no exception.

Sure, you could create perfect blacks if you wanted to, but then that would veer into the more cartoony side, and that's not the Cyberpunk aesthetic and certainly not how the game wants to portray itself.
Lol
So why there is perfect blacks in SDR? Is that the creators' intent too?
 

Rikkori

Member
Lol
So why there is perfect blacks in SDR? Is that the creators' intent too?
Because the actual dynamic range is too low in SDR. You will not see the same behaviour as HDR (and it's the same for movies) - should be obvious no? Or to flip it back around do you think the creator's intent is to showcase a bright sunny day at 100 nits? HDR will always be the authorative version, always, because it actually gives you more options to showcase things the way you want it.

It's really the same for colours, if you turn on HDR and start seeing things be different shades than in SDR then the right version is the HDR one, because you can see what the actual shade was meant to be - but in SDR you'll always be limited to sRGB (mostly); unlike HDR where you can go wild and even have the full BT2020 spectrum.

But either way I would say you can't compare HDR & SDR that much, they have different limitations and each will be targeting different things.
 
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Is this why the game has always turned it off (and reverted back to default graphics settings) whenever I boot up Cyberpunk on the PS5)

I feel like the HDR is all over the place in this game. It sometimes looks really washed out, but other times looks fantastic, usually more so in the daytime. Without spoiling too much, there's a mission for Panam that concludes in the desert at dawn, and that looks fantastic.
 

DanEON

Member
Because the actual dynamic range is too low in SDR. You will not see the same behaviour as HDR (and it's the same for movies) - should be obvious no? Or to flip it back around do you think the creator's intent is to showcase a bright sunny day at 100 nits?
Dude, there is perfect black in HDR too. In HDR you can have a perfect black sky in 0 nits and a moon with 1000 nits at the same time, next to the other.
HDR in cyberpunk is broken.
 

Rikkori

Member
Dude, there is perfect black in HDR too. In HDR you can have a perfect black sky in 0 nits and a moon with 1000 nits at the same time, next to the other.
HDR in cyberpunk is broken.
"Black is the darkest color, the result of the absence or complete absorption of visible light. It is an achromatic color, a color without hue, like white and gray."

Now explain to me if you understand what happens when we're not in space as far as light goes. And then how GI & lights work in the game.

PS: here's space
NGC_406_Hubble_WikiSky.jpg


You suffer from the same affliction as Vinnie, you don't understand the difference between simulation and the artificial. If you want "perfect black" you can do that in game rendering, but then you're making differing choices about your rendering back-end and how GI works and how it affects materials as well as the light sources in the scene and their light output. In short, just because you want perfect blacks in order to fully use your oled doesn't mean the creators want it to look that way - nor should they.

And sure as hell doesn't mean the game isn't HDR just because it doesn't have perfect blacks. Also, another spoiler alert, you're not gonna see perfect black anyway unless you live in a room with no windows, no light sources, don't wear glasses, and have your walls painted vantablack. But even then your eyes are still going to perceive the light blooming however slight due to how vision works.
 
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DanEON

Member
"Black is the darkest color, the result of the absence or complete absorption of visible light. It is an achromatic color, a color without hue, like white and gray."

Now explain to me if you understand what happens when we're not in space as far as light goes. And then how GI & lights work in the game.

PS: here's space
NGC_406_Hubble_WikiSky.jpg


You suffer from the same affliction as Vinnie, you don't understand the difference between simulation and the artificial. If you want "perfect black" you can do that in game rendering, but then you're making differing choices about your rendering back-end and how GI works and how it affects materials as well as the light sources in the scene and their light output. In short, just because you want perfect blacks in order to fully use your oled doesn't mean the creators want it to look that way - nor should they.

And sure as hell doesn't mean the game isn't HDR just because it doesn't have perfect blacks. Also, another spoiler alert, you're not gonna see perfect black anyway unless you live in a room with no windows, no light sources, don't wear glasses, and have your walls painted vantablack. But even then your eyes are still going to perceive the light blooming however slight due to how vision works.
Dude. HDR in cyberpunk is broken. Deal with it!!
 
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Burger

Member
Dude. HDR in cyberpunk is broken. Deal with it!!

What is trying to be explained to you, is that because 'pure black' exists - doesn't mean it should, or has to be used.

Show me a frame from a feature - say Blade Runner that has a black level sitting at 0.
 

DanEON

Member
What is trying to be explained to you, is that because 'pure black' exists - doesn't mean it should, or has to be used.

Show me a frame from a feature - say Blade Runner that has a black level sitting at 0.
I know what he is saying. But it doesnt change the fact that Cyberpunk HDR is broken, or far from good.
 

Burger

Member
I know what he is saying. But it doesnt change the fact that Cyberpunk HDR is broken, or far from good.

That has not been proven.

There is no measure for HDR implementation. There is stuff on Netflix in Dolby Vision that looks like SDR because that was the choice of the people who made it. It was made to look a particular way.

High Dynamic Range means that the range exists. Not that it must be used.
 

TriSuit666

Banned
This is false. This guy is an idiot who doesn't understand how a) light works; b) how GI and graphics in general work; and c) what the creator's intent is. In fact, it's laughable he's complaining about perfect blacks & HDR but meanwhile he's testing in the plaza surrounded by bright lights & reflective surfaces all around - what a moron!

HDR looks great but you shouldn't expect perfect blacks because the way light works is that you will never have perfect black unless you're in a vacuum, and since the game has a global illumination system on at all times, and you're always surrounded by numerous light sources, then it will always be illuminated. On top of that the general cyberpunk aesthetic is towards 'haziness', that's why you see a lot of smog or smoke effects in all the works (eg very obviously in Bladerunner), and CP2077 is no exception.

Sure, you could create perfect blacks if you wanted to, but then that would veer into the more cartoony side, and that's not the Cyberpunk aesthetic and certainly not how the game wants to portray itself.

I'm not his biggest fan either, but I thought his day job was TV Calibration - he'd know his onions, surely?
 

Rikkori

Member
I'm not his biggest fan either, but I thought his day job was TV Calibration - he'd know his onions, surely?
He's generally okay for TV tech info but he says just obviously stupid things sometimes. In particular when it comes to games he doesn't even try to understand what's going on but he still does the videos because he needs the views. Same issue with his HDR videos, people making movies/shows specifically say what their intent was but he'll still say that's not "real HDR".

Basically he has good & expensive equipment to measure things but not enough active neurons to figure out what they mean. That's fine for a calibration because the equipment does the work but not good when you try to make claims on a subject matter like HDR.

 

Burger

Member
He's generally okay for TV tech info but he says just obviously stupid things sometimes. In particular when it comes to games he doesn't even try to understand what's going on but he still does the videos because he needs the views. Same issue with his HDR videos, people making movies/shows specifically say what their intent was but he'll still say that's not "real HDR".

Basically he has good & expensive equipment to measure things but not enough active neurons to figure out what they mean. That's fine for a calibration because the equipment does the work but not good when you try to make claims on a subject matter like HDR.


We have these types where I work. Call them technicians, engineers, whatever. They are very good at monitor/projector calibration.

They are in the background tutting when a show is not using the full spectrum of values in Rec709 or P3. Never mind that the DOP and the Colourist have together decided the particular look as a creative decision.

It's something that's relatively new to videogames. Perhaps this is where the confusion lies. People say Ghost of Tsushima has excellent HDR, and RDR2 has awful HDR. I'm inclined to say that if you made RDR2 look like GoT then it would look nothing like RDR2 - which has a decidedly flat look.

Creative colour grading is not something videogames used to deal with. You have 4 colours. You now have 256 colours. Now your engine is rendering internally in ACES AP0 using the Dolby Perceptual Quantiser with a target output gamut of P3 at 1000nits, with a D65 whitepoint.
 

Tchu-Espresso

likes mayo on everthing and can't dance
Are people seriously trying to argue that the HDR isn’t broken? Good grief is this what it has come to?

Something is clearly not right with how HDR is implemented. There is no arguing this.
 
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Reave

Member
Turn off HDR on your console as well. Then, adjust the gamma to make the first few letters literally barely visible.

You’ll see an improvement.
 
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After spending some time with the in-game HDR settings I think I got something that looks good.

In my case worked to increase the maximum brightness to 900 and reduce the mid tones to 0.9.
 

JeloSWE

Member
I love the work HDTVTest is doing and he knows HDR pretty well. The problem with the HDR in Cyberpunk is that increasing the luma meter in the HDR setting isn't just controlling the peak nits cutoff but more behaving like it's brightening an SDR image. So when you make the highlight brighter the dark shadows becomes proportionally brighter as well. The way it works in most other well functioning games is that when you set peak nits it should only extend where you start rolling off the highlights, and the mid tones and shadows should stay the same.
 
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JeloSWE

Member
We have these types where I work. Call them technicians, engineers, whatever. They are very good at monitor/projector calibration.

They are in the background tutting when a show is not using the full spectrum of values in Rec709 or P3. Never mind that the DOP and the Colourist have together decided the particular look as a creative decision.

It's something that's relatively new to videogames. Perhaps this is where the confusion lies. People say Ghost of Tsushima has excellent HDR, and RDR2 has awful HDR. I'm inclined to say that if you made RDR2 look like GoT then it would look nothing like RDR2 - which has a decidedly flat look.

Creative colour grading is not something videogames used to deal with. You have 4 colours. You now have 256 colours. Now your engine is rendering internally in ACES AP0 using the Dolby Perceptual Quantiser with a target output gamut of P3 at 1000nits, with a D65 whitepoint.
A big issue is the lack of truly good HDR displays on the market so many colorists master/grade for the lower end common dominator at around 200~600 nits, some even seem to grade on consumer level OLED with maybe dynamic tonemapping enabled. Which makes the game look pathetic when you watch or play those on a high end 1000+ nits LCD TV. I would argue there is no consumer gaming monitor doing HDR justice, and all OLED and and mid range LCD TV don't do it justice either. Watching season 1 of Mandalorian on my 1700 nits top end TV really makes it look dim and bad, and the creative intent of raised blacks makes it even less impact full. Cyberpunk as well seem to try and set a mood by keeping darks elevated as does RE2 Remake.
 

zwiggelbig

Member
Its suprsing how few people care that the ps5 and series x version got sold witouth actually being a ps5 version and series x but instead run a last gen build that does not even play wel on last gen. They really should have waited till their ps5 and series x version were ready to release this and in the meantime fix the bugs
 

ethomaz

Banned
This is false. This guy is an idiot who doesn't understand how a) light works; b) how GI and graphics in general work; and c) what the creator's intent is. In fact, it's laughable he's complaining about perfect blacks & HDR but meanwhile he's testing in the plaza surrounded by bright lights & reflective surfaces all around - what a moron!

HDR looks great but you shouldn't expect perfect blacks because the way light works is that you will never have perfect black unless you're in a vacuum, and since the game has a global illumination system on at all times, and you're always surrounded by numerous light sources, then it will always be illuminated. On top of that the general cyberpunk aesthetic is towards 'haziness', that's why you see a lot of smog or smoke effects in all the works (eg very obviously in Bladerunner), and CP2077 is no exception.

Sure, you could create perfect blacks if you wanted to, but then that would veer into the more cartoony side, and that's not the Cyberpunk aesthetic and certainly not how the game wants to portray itself.
So the fake blacks in HDR and the actual blacks in SDR is something in the guy mind lol
You could write more text for something factual.
 
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Nikana

Go Go Neo Rangers!
That has not been proven.

There is no measure for HDR implementation. There is stuff on Netflix in Dolby Vision that looks like SDR because that was the choice of the people who made it. It was made to look a particular way.

High Dynamic Range means that the range exists. Not that it must be used.

GOnna agree with this being whats going on here. Its not broken, its just not used in a fashion that makes sense or takes any advantage of the range.
 

YCoCg

Member
This is false. This guy is an idiot who doesn't understand
This guy being an industry professional in TV/monitor calibration for years with professional equipment and tools to properly analyze the output. Yes, it's him who is wrong, not the developers who messed up HDR.
 

Rikkori

Member
So the fake blacks in HDR and the actual blacks in SDR is something in the guy mind lol
You could write more text for something factual.
Do you understand there is not only one black and there are multiple varying properties to anything you might call black depending on material (but not only)?

GOnna agree with this being whats going on here. Its not broken, its just not used in a fashion that makes sense or takes any advantage of the range.
It just doesn't go down to 0.00 nits, that doesn't mean there's not a high range. Considering anything that's not oled doesn't go there (and not even all oleds) that means it's working fine for 99.9% of displays that do HDR.

This guy being an industry professional in TV/monitor calibration for years with professional equipment and tools to properly analyze the output. Yes, it's him who is wrong, not the developers who messed up HDR.
Right, he has experience reading what the tools are saying, but 0 as to why they are the way they are. Or are you telling me you think Vinnie has more equipment than multi-billion dollar studios and more knowledge than all their rendering leads & art directors? At least try to think.
 

YCoCg

Member
Or are you telling me you think Vinnie has more equipment than multi-billion dollar studios and more knowledge than all their rendering leads & art directors? At least try to think.
Why don't you try and think here? There's been billion dollar studios who have messed up HDR (Rockstar Games) and small indie studios being able to pull off amazing results with their HDR and WGC usage. You're trying to argue that shit HDR is a "choice" when it's often a rushed thing or lack of care, especially when it's just SDR forced into a HDR container which more often than not tends to look worse than just displaying that SDR straight away. If you're NOT exceeding the SDR limits but insist on saying it's HDR then that is wrong, you and someone else has mentioned there's no guide but at the very minimum there's the case where the range needs to exceed the SDR block range.

In the case of Cyberpunk it's just shifting that SDR block range around the HDR range.
 

SafeOrAlone

Banned
I messed around a bit and the hdr ended up looking good. Better than sdr or the initial hdr settings. I think I have it set to 1000, 200, 0.80 on a Sony X900E. I'm no expert but I always go for the best hdr I can get and I think it looks pretty good.
 

Burger

Member
A big issue is the lack of truly good HDR displays on the market so many colorists master/grade for the lower end common dominator at around 200~600 nits, some even seem to grade on consumer level OLED with maybe dynamic tonemapping enabled. Which makes the game look pathetic when you watch or play those on a high end 1000+ nits LCD TV. I would argue there is no consumer gaming monitor doing HDR justice, and all OLED and and mid range LCD TV don't do it justice either. Watching season 1 of Mandalorian on my 1700 nits top end TV really makes it look dim and bad, and the creative intent of raised blacks makes it even less impact full. Cyberpunk as well seem to try and set a mood by keeping darks elevated as does RE2 Remake.

That's not really true. The Sony X300 has been around for a long time and has been the standard for HDR reference grading. Windows @ 1000 nits. Before HDR we graded on the Dolby PRM 4200.

Where I work Neflix and others are graded to a Dolby Vision 1000 nit value, and often do not include a trim pass for 600 nits, only 100. The Sony X310 has a full screen brightness @ 1000 nits and is now considered a top end reference monitor. Early on content providers were asking for Dolby Vision masters @ 4000 nits - which could only be done on a Dolby Pulsar. As there were only a few made and you couldn't actually buy one - this was dropped for the 1000 nit standard, which Sony were the first to market with the X300.

Perhaps many bedroom colourists grade for 200-600 nits. But they are not working on Netflix Originals I can guarantee you that.
 

Rikkori

Member
Why don't you try and think here? There's been billion dollar studios who have messed up HDR (Rockstar Games) and small indie studios being able to pull off amazing results with their HDR and WGC usage. You're trying to argue that shit HDR is a "choice" when it's often a rushed thing or lack of care, especially when it's just SDR forced into a HDR container which more often than not tends to look worse than just displaying that SDR straight away. If you're NOT exceeding the SDR limits but insist on saying it's HDR then that is wrong, you and someone else has mentioned there's no guide but at the very minimum there's the case where the range needs to exceed the SDR block range.

In the case of Cyberpunk it's just shifting that SDR block range around the HDR range.

Rockstar had a very specific look in mind when making RDR 2, and keep in mind they started on it long before HDR displays were even out. Even still I don't think they messed it up, they just made a choice. Just like movies limiting HDR to 200 nits make an intentional choice. Just like having specifically elevated black levels is an intentional choice etc. And I say this even though I don't like RDR 2's HDR at all, but that's my choice and goes hand in hand with removing stuff like the permanent vignette effect. Again - against the creator's intent, but I don't pretend like they messed up because I have different tastes.

And really you should stop saying things like "looks worse than SDR" when you have people in this very thread saying the exact opposite based on testing it out for themselves (besides me). Use your eyes and judge, stop relying on youtubers to tell you what you should think. The games goes from 0.025 nits all the way to >1000 if you display can handle it. It's also in WCG. That's as HDR as possible. If you want to restrict HDR to only arbitrary levels like 0.00 nits, then why stop there, why not also only 4000 nits? In which case we do only Dolby Pulsar as "true HDR" display. Or hell, why not 10000 nits? After all, RL HDR measures in 100.000s of nits, so why stop at "lowly" 10.000 nits? In which case everyone be equally (un)happy as there's no true HDR anywhere except RL. No movie, game, no display. All fake HDR. Oh no.
 
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