I maxed all the covenants and I dont think she gives any more info that i could tell.
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Dark Souls 3 Story and Lore Discussion [Unmarked Spoilers]
- Thread starter GorillaJu
- Start date
I maxed all the covenants and I dont think she gives any more info that i could tell.
GwyndolinCinder
Member
"Angels" huh?
Nice find
I noticed someone yesterday say that Artorias' grave is in the Alt-Firelink Shrine.
They don't mean that measly little grave round the side with the wolf sword do they? Artorias' grave or at least memoriam was enormous in DS1 and if it was gonna be anywhere, it'd be near Farron Keep.
If you go back and talk to the handmaid here, she provides some interesting dialogue. She speaks as if the Alt-Firelink Shrine is within the Age of Dark...
One odd thing I'll say about Alt-Firelink Shrine is this isn't nighttime. When it's dark in a FROMsoft game you know. Alt-Anor Londo, Tomb of Giants etc. I can see my player, it's just everything around the area is pitch black.
They don't mean that measly little grave round the side with the wolf sword do they? Artorias' grave or at least memoriam was enormous in DS1 and if it was gonna be anywhere, it'd be near Farron Keep.
If you go back and talk to the handmaid here, she provides some interesting dialogue. She speaks as if the Alt-Firelink Shrine is within the Age of Dark...
One odd thing I'll say about Alt-Firelink Shrine is this isn't nighttime. When it's dark in a FROMsoft game you know. Alt-Anor Londo, Tomb of Giants etc. I can see my player, it's just everything around the area is pitch black.
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
I'm pretty sure that's the implication, yeah, based on all the relevant item descriptions (winged knight armor, the miracles, etc).
And yeah UG Firelink is interesting. It's always the same darkness there.
What I'm convinced of is that hub Firelink Shrine is a different time than the rest of the game. Because the sky there is relatively clear, and it's right underneath Lothric Castle, and you can see the darksign sun in the endgame from pretty much every outdoor area (Excepting Boreal Valley/AL I think). But in hub Firelink, it looks the same as usual. No Darksign Sun.
MegaMelon
Member
I think Untended Graves and the corresponding Firelink shrine are either from the past or future in a different timeline. Champion Gundyr is defeated by an unknown warrior who ushers in an age of dark. Gundyr takes the coiled bonfire sword and imbeds it in him, lying in wait hoping for the day that an ashen one fit to link the fire awakes once the bell tolls.
I think the Soul of Cinder is basically an amalgamation of everyone who linked the fire in the past, including the player characters from the first two games, given what the Soul of the Lords says:
MegaMelon
Member
You're correct. Taken from the wiki:
Soul Of Cinder/Incarnation of Kings (王たちの化身, lit. Outachi no Keshin)
It's EVERY person who has ever linked the fire. Also shown by how he fights with different techniques (sorcery/pyromancy/faith/melee/etc).
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
There's 107 rings for the trophy
Also, do you need to max the covenants on a single character?
You don't have to max all the covenants, only the ones that give rings or spells. AFAIK you need to have all the relevant items/spells for a trophy on one character though, yes.
Also the Aldritch Faithful covenant description uses even more specific language about the coming age:
Deep sea, deep waters. No abyss. So that's probably the Cathedral's namesake.
Also I found the name of one of Yuria's sisters: Liliane. From the description of Dark Blade: "The third daughter Liliane, one of the founders of the Sable Church, is said to recount tales that portray the suffering and conflict of Hollows." Has anyone seen the third name? Also, who are they daughters of, I wonder?
I'm also more and more convinced Gwynevere was Oceiros' Queen. Divine Blessing description:
Goddess of fertility and bounty is how Gwynevere was described in DS1. Okay, so that seems solid enough already, right? What else we got? Sun Princess Ring, found in Gwynevere's chamber.
Note the "heavenly children" bit. Divine Pillars of Light miracle:
"heavenly daughter" you say? Gertrude was one of Gwynevere's children. One of many, possibly. Ocelotte was simply the youngest, last to be born. Gwynevere disappeared after that, possibly because Oceiros went batshit. At the start of the fight he thinks he's holding Ocelotte, but there's nothing in his hands. Oddly though, we do hear sounds of crying as the fight progresses.
Also, Gertrude was blind and mute. She was visited by an "angel". Turn your eyes once more to that image of a Primordial Serpent with angelic wings. Gertrude couldn't see him, perhaps why she thought it was an angel? Final proof comes from Bountiful Light miracle.
You know who else is probably one of Gwynevere's children? The Dancer. The Dancer's Soul turns into the Soothing Sunlight Miracle.
Princess of Sunlight = Sun Princess = Gwynevere. Maidens are the daughters (read Gertrude's description again). What's that, you want more proof? Here you go, Dancer's Crown description:
Dancer's Soul:
You know who else is a daughter of Gwynevere probably? Rosaria. Rosaria's Soul gives the Bountiful Sunlight miracle. Also isn't it interesting that Leonhard goes to Gwynevere's chamber after killing Rosaria?
I'm nor sure if Lothric and Lorian are also children of Oceiros and Gwynevere, but everything I've written above I'm pretty sure of!
Good find! So that's that cleared up. So, the Age of the Deep is really the only way the embers can't come back.
Also, has anyone managed to get the Infusion trophy yet? I have all 15 types, including one that's been 'shrived' and it won't pop.
Just thinking about it, how relevant actually were the events of DS2 to the overarching plot of the games? Nothing of consequence seemed to come from it, aside from Aldia trying and failing to find a cure for the curse. Nashandra isn't that important either, since she's just a fragment of Manus. It seems intermediary rather than anything significant actually happening. DS1 is the first cycle, DS3 is the final cycle and DS2 is just *some* cycle.
I'm not altogether clued up on the intricacies of DS2's lore, though.
I'm not altogether clued up on the intricacies of DS2's lore, though.
One thing I'm not completely clear on is what the duty of a Lord of Cinder actually is.
Why did they abdicate their thrones?
What was expected of them after they linked the fire in the first place?
How did the thrones make their way to Firelink Shrine? I'm assuming the thrones are like the throne of want in that they originally overlooked the kiln and gave them some kind of access to the site of the first flame, so how did they end up in Firelink?
What good would bringing back the Lords actually do? Am I correct in thinking the state of the first flame is so dire that it would take multiple lords to link the fire once again? If so, why not just keep propagating the myth of the chosen undead? After all, the player character has enough power on his own to once again link the fire.
Can somebody explain what the unkindled, the player character's title, actually is?
Why did they abdicate their thrones?
What was expected of them after they linked the fire in the first place?
How did the thrones make their way to Firelink Shrine? I'm assuming the thrones are like the throne of want in that they originally overlooked the kiln and gave them some kind of access to the site of the first flame, so how did they end up in Firelink?
What good would bringing back the Lords actually do? Am I correct in thinking the state of the first flame is so dire that it would take multiple lords to link the fire once again? If so, why not just keep propagating the myth of the chosen undead? After all, the player character has enough power on his own to once again link the fire.
Can somebody explain what the unkindled, the player character's title, actually is?
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
Fire in this game seems to take the place of Souls and Humanity in previous Dark Souls games to an extent. Hence the Ember taking the place of Humanity. When you defeat a Boss, it says Heir of Fire destroyed. When you place all the Lords on their thrones, the Firekeeper calls you the true heir. In previous Souls games, you needed powerful Souls to access the Kiln. In this one, you need Fire. Strong fire. The Cinders of Lords are the strongest fires left. By gathering them all up in one place, you inherit their Fires, giving you the strength to link the First Flame.
I'm working on a theory about Lothric and Lorian and their royal line which I now believe is descended from Gwynevere, and thus Gwyn, which has been percolating since my last post, but I need some more time. Basically I think Lothric and Lorian never linked the fire, and their title of Lord comes from being descendants of Gwyn. Their throne calls "King" Lothric the last hope of his line, presumably because he's frail and cursed and can't have kids. Gertrude is probably dead, Dancer and Rosaria are messed up, Lorian somehow took on his brother's curse too, so they're the last ones "standing", no pun intended... But they have no interest in linking the flame. edit: actually the Dancer's stuff says "former royal family" so it seems Lorian and Lothric aren't related to Gwyn after all. Their family came to rule after Oceiros and Gwynever's family I guess? I wonder how though.
Also someone mentioned this earlier so I had a look and yeah their throne room is full of feathers. Feathers everywhere. Same as in Gertrude's cage. No idea what this means yet.
Hibiki Kurosawa
Member
At least there's statues of them in the Grand Archives.
Huh no. It's just that deep sea and abyss are similar things. Apparently the japanese for these two is very close as well.
The skulls, robe and sword are all reminiscent of Nito.
Plus Aldrich got the title of "devourer of gods". Seems like a weird title to get if he only devoured Gwydolin.
I always assumed the angels were the pilgrim butterflies but the primordial serpent statues are prettyyyy clear.
Though the pilgrim butterflies are heavily related to the serpents so there's still a through line there.
Also the undead tree people are probably there to try an become pilgrim butterflies themselves? Seems like the pilgrim butterflies have been converging for quite a bit of time and so a lot of the undead (re: hollow) sit around long enough to become trees and look like the butterflies they watch over.
The third daughter is not named and potentially not even seen. There are only two sisters that show up in the usurpation ending and originally I thought it was the other two sisters but it very well could just be the two named ones with the third unnamed one being someone actually important and someone we already know as to not spill the secret until the DLC hit.
I think it's a bit of stretch but potential. The problem is I think it's just referring to scholars who studied Seath's/Logan's crystal magics and not the first flame/sin given the archives and what's in them. the "first Scholar" doubting the linking of the fire could very well be Aldia but I have a feeling it's just happenstance.
Though the pilgrim butterflies are heavily related to the serpents so there's still a through line there.
Also the undead tree people are probably there to try an become pilgrim butterflies themselves? Seems like the pilgrim butterflies have been converging for quite a bit of time and so a lot of the undead (re: hollow) sit around long enough to become trees and look like the butterflies they watch over.
The third daughter is not named and potentially not even seen. There are only two sisters that show up in the usurpation ending and originally I thought it was the other two sisters but it very well could just be the two named ones with the third unnamed one being someone actually important and someone we already know as to not spill the secret until the DLC hit.
I think it's a bit of stretch but potential. The problem is I think it's just referring to scholars who studied Seath's/Logan's crystal magics and not the first flame/sin given the archives and what's in them. the "first Scholar" doubting the linking of the fire could very well be Aldia but I have a feeling it's just happenstance.
I remember I read that Lothric was born and was destined to become a Lord of Cinder, which is to link the fire, but both him and Lorian had no desire to do so. His parents were trying to make the perfect heir but he ended up being cursed. I think he became cursed because he didn't want to light the fire. His curse was also contagious that is why his brother was infected too.
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
Watched the Usurp ending again, I wouldn't be surprised if one of the DLCs picks up from there and requires you to finish the game with that ending. It would be a really bold move unlike anything they've done before. I would love to see what the world looks like post-Usurpation.
Also yeah I assumed from the moment I saw the flying Pilgrim Butterflies that the "tree-people" you see in the beginning are in the stages of transformation to becoming them. The hollows see it as some kind of destiny or higher purpose, hence why all the hollows worship them. I don't know if they're also the same as the Londor pilgrims though. They tend to just die. I think the furthest we see them, as in closest to Lothric Castle, is on the steps towards the Cathedral of Blue.
Also yeah I assumed from the moment I saw the flying Pilgrim Butterflies that the "tree-people" you see in the beginning are in the stages of transformation to becoming them. The hollows see it as some kind of destiny or higher purpose, hence why all the hollows worship them. I don't know if they're also the same as the Londor pilgrims though. They tend to just die. I think the furthest we see them, as in closest to Lothric Castle, is on the steps towards the Cathedral of Blue.
Nah, hollows and pilgrims are very distinct. The hollows probably just feel it is their calling as well and want to emulate them.
ASilentProtagonist
Member
Did I miss this area, or was it removed? If it was could be saved for the DLC. We always hear about the east, would be cool to see a sand area.
Did I miss this area, or was it removed? If it was could be saved for the DLC. We always hear about the east, would be cool to see a sand area.
You missed it
In fact, the game teases you with it nearly the whole way through
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah I meant if the Londor Pilgrims want to become Pilgrim Butterflies, but I don't think that's the case? I don't see a direct connection at any rate.
They fall in the regular Firelink though. You have to beat a couple of bosses and then xheck back.
I have 4 Seed of Giants right now, all from regular Firelink.
MegaMelon
Member
I'm thinking there was undoubtedly some significant (lore wise) content/ideas that had to be cut for the games release that we'll see developed properly for the DLC. The big one being the primordial serpents. One of if the most important characters that we still don't know a whole lot about. Kaathe is mentioned if you kill Yuria and we can see the statues of them with wings (what) in the Dragonslayer Armour fight.
I also wonder if they had bigger plans for the hollows turning to archtrees/enemies exploding inot black abyss(?) puss.
Of course they have the simpler option of having something that takes notes from The Old Hunters expansion for Bloodborne. We travel to some other land/firelink shrine from the past and fight different lords of cinder. We know that many individuals have linked the fire so it's certainly a viable option.
I also wonder if they had bigger plans for the hollows turning to archtrees/enemies exploding inot black abyss(?) puss.
Of course they have the simpler option of having something that takes notes from The Old Hunters expansion for Bloodborne. We travel to some other land/firelink shrine from the past and fight different lords of cinder. We know that many individuals have linked the fire so it's certainly a viable option.
Yeah, looks like it's gonna take him forever.
To be honest I'm a bit disappointed so far. He seems to be spending an awful lot more time trying to figure out level geometry which really doesn't matter that much in DS3 compared to previous games (he already noted the general organization which is more like DeS ie hub-like) than actually scrutinizing details in the environment. He missed quite a lot of stuff already.
Plus his few remarks about some details make me think he's not going to like the lore of this one.
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
I was thinking this too. Butterflies implies cocoons, and the pilgrims do have that goofy shell on their backs. I feel like there's just one little missing connection between the two before I feel confident in assuming that there's a definite link.
tbh I'm kind of surprised more people aren't shocked that Dancer, Gertrude and Rosaria are all but stated to be daughters of Gwynevere! I know I was as I was figuring it out. Is this old hat?
MegaMelon
Member
Related to or descendents of Gwynevere/the royal gods is how I've mostly seen the evidence interpreted as. What lore led you to believe the 3 are daughters of Gwynevere?
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
Orochinagis
Member
Oh my, did Dusk transformed in that white tree in the swamp?
Slick Butter
Member
Uh, Is having Nito's sword and having a bottom half made of a pile of skeletons evidence (not his tail, under the black robes on the front)?
He has as clearly devoured Nito as he has Gwyndolin.
Based on the fact that he also uses Chaos-like fire attacks and dark sorceries, I'd wager it probably ate at least the chaos bug or a Chaos Witch as well as the four kings. But that bits more speculative.
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
oh god stop this, please. He has fire powers because he's a lord of CINDER. Like the Abyss Watcher. Like Yhorm. The "dark sorceries" gee I wonder if he got them from Gwyndolyn, or maybe idk, the fact that the Cathedral of the Deep is all about dark sorceries?? You think maybe the skeletons are because he spent a lifetime eating humans??? Shit he's got a black robe? So do the enemies at the start of the game! What if they're all Nito???? He doesn't even HAVE Nito's sword, what are you talking about?
Evidence. Item descriptions. Dialogue. ANYTHING. People just keep regurgitating this nonsense without any proof at all.
Nito ate Gwyndolyn. That's all we know as fact. The Chosen Undead killed Nito and the other Lords many ages ago so it's literally impossible for anyone to have eaten them.
"Piles of skeletons" =/= evidence because piles of skeletons are all over the fucking place in these games. People decompose into skeletons. It's a thing. It doesn't mean it's all fuckin'... NITO. Get out of here.
I suppose it wasn't obvious to me but the Kiln of the First Flame and the crumpled city next to it was/is Lothric. The largest keep/castle part of it is exactly the same (where Lothric's chamber is). Has the broken bridge out in front of it as well. Wasn't 100% sure on it but it's most definitely Lothric.
Wat
Every Lord of Cinder has their "cinder" mode where they just seep fire. That has nothing to do with Aldritch having chaos pyromancy.
Wat
Every Lord of Cinder has their "cinder" mode where they just seep fire. That has nothing to do with Aldritch having chaos pyromancy.
I knew there was something up with Rosaria, but I'm kinda surprised that Gwynevere may be the Queen of Lothric. I mean, how did it happen?
And I didn't know about Dancer either, so thanks for your nice post!
Slick Butter
Member
Damn, dude, calm down. The dark sorceries and fire stuff was pure speculation on my part, I wasn't trying to argue that.
He does have the Gravelord Greatsword, it is affixed to the end of the Gwyndolin-like staff.
That's the main reason people think he has eaten Nito.
1. It's a dark fantasy game. Skeletons doesn't automatically = Nito. To be fair, the Catacombs is where you find the most skeletons in DS1 and Nito ain't the boss of that area, despite having a skull head and skeleton adds. Nito's trait is the miasma, the wave of death and agony. You could make the exact same argument that High Lord Wolnir defeated Nito.
2. All of the Lords of Cinder naturally possess fire. Their powers are not related to other characters.
3. Aldrich uses a miracle version of the Lifehunt Scythe; not the real weapon. Given that it is only said he dreams of Priscilla, it is most likely he based the spell on what he saw. Hence why his soul only gives the spell and not the scythe itself. (from the Wiki)
Right now, there is ZERO evidence that she devoured Nito as well. It's explicitly stated multiple times that she 'slowly devoured' Gwyndolin. If the DLC provides concrete info that she devoured Nito then I'll happily concede but you can't start throwing stuff that doesn't have the evidence or it just slowly devolves the conversation.
The wiki says that the theme contains parts of the Nito theme but I've been listening to them and I can't find any comparison points.
Seeing as we're discussing him, I'll post all the item descriptions surrounding him...
Slick Butter
Member
I never said that it devoured Priscilla. I was speculating that it could have devoured other gods.
I didn't think about the Lords of Cinder having fire, sorry. I didn't make that connection.
I wasn't primarily using it having half a body full of skeletons for that argument for Nito, either, but that in conjunction with it summoning Nito's Gravelord Greatsword out of its staff for the whole fight.
This isn't to say it definitely devoured Nito, it could be a similar thing to him only having seen him or whatever, similar to with Priscilla.
ASilentProtagonist
Member
I'm assuming this was scraped?
Yeah, I can see there's a resemblance.
But nothing in items' description or anything implies that he devoured Nito tho.
Is there even any reference to Nito in DS3? Didn't see or read anything like it.
It's fine. I'll admit the Greatsword coming out and the dress around his waist is convincing. I think we'll (hopefully) find out a bit more about Aldrich (and the Deep) in DLC.
I'm assuming this was scraped?
- Final areas of the game have darksign sun.
- Doubt this was ever and in-game shot as the landscape looks very similar to the early promo shots that resemble DeS artwork. (ill find a pic)
- DLC
- I just noticed that towering black mass that looks like an enemy.
I was actually getting quite frustrated with the way he was playing today, it was like he'd never played a Souls game.
ASilentProtagonist
Member
What's the lore behind the Pilgram Butterfly's, and the Eclipse?
Orochinagis
Member
Calm down man. you will die again when vaati reaches the same idea
Marketing.
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah absolutely nothing direct. The only mention of Pilgrim Butterflies is in Dragonslayer Armor descriptions, which only mention the Armor was controlled by a Pilgrim Butterfly. I guess that means we can infer the Pilgrim Butterflies don't want us to get to Lothric Castle. That's about it.
I'll concede that Aldritch's weapon bears a similarity to the Gravelord sword, but that's about it. People have been repeating that Aldritch's theme contains references to Nito's theme but I've been listening pretty closely and I don't hear it. Not to toot my own horn and I'm afraid this will sound awful and pretentious but I have a good musical ear and play instruments. You can very obviously hear Gwyndolyn's theme and some of Moonlight Butterfly, but I don't hear Nito in it. And even if true, does that mean we're also arguing that he ate the Moonlight Butterfly? edit: those are actually the same themes, derp. I forgot. Gwyndolin shares a theme with the Butterfly for some reason.
I just think this is Occam's Razor here - Nito isn't mentioned anywhere, at all, not even vaguely, so at BEST you can say that Aldritch's weapon looks like the Gravelord Sword - It definitely is not the actual gravelord sword. There's a better case to be made that Aldritch devoured Priscilla, imo, and I don't think that's very likely, either. In the absence of evidence, the more likely answer is probably correct, and there are more obvious answers to most of the reasons why people think Aldritch ate Nito, not to mention the very obvious fact that he was canonically killed by the Chosen Undead, unlike Gwyndolyn. Like, before anything else, you'd have to explain that away, and that's gonna require some serious mental gymnastics.
Slick Butter
Member
I didn't notice it before, but listening to the two themes now, yes the backing for Aldrich's theme does resemble Nito's theme quite a bit, although obviously the Gwyndolin theme is more prominent in Aldrich's.
However, either way, I doubt looking into the music is the best evidence for anything.
I'm glad I got you to notice a significant detail you seemed to have missed, whether or not it reinforces anyone's arguments. Please be less dismissive and condescending about it next time, though.
Aldrich was made into a Lord of Cinder by Pontiff Sulyvahn so it's likely that the Lord's Souls were fed to him during that process (unless I'm misunderstanding how one becomes a Lord of Cinder). While he was in possession of Nito's Lord Soul, he probably took on some of his characteristics. Nito's corpse could have been found and fed to him but I think more of the power would have been in the soul anyway and we don't have anything to support that.
What I really want to know is what Gwyndolin was "ill" with that weakened him to such a state that Pontiff Sulyvahn could imprison him and feed him to Aldrich.
What I really want to know is what Gwyndolin was "ill" with that weakened him to such a state that Pontiff Sulyvahn could imprison him and feed him to Aldrich.