I don't think there's anything that suggests Oceiros is a god.
-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
Dark Souls 3 Story and Lore Discussion [Unmarked Spoilers]
- Thread starter GorillaJu
- Start date
I don't think there's anything that suggests Oceiros is a god.
yeah i think an heir of fire is someone who is like you- a candidate strong enough to be a potential 'lord of cinder' if they so choose
i thought a lord of cinder was someone who had linked the first flame and managed to come out of that process alive but when typing that out i just realized that aldritch is one so uhhh(?????)
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
Star Falcon
Member
I just finished the game last night, can finally delve into this thread! The Nameless King being the son of Gwyn makes sense and I really like that idea. I didn't clock that initially.
I would have liked to have seen a couple stronger ties to DS2 in the story - why does Tsorig have Raime's sword for example? The only thing that I could string together was the picture of Nashandra cementing her connection to the kingdom of Dark Souls 1. She came to Drangleic from a land across the sea, and was born from a fragment of Manus so perhaps she was a citizen of Anor Londo at some point in the past which would explain her portrait being in Irithyll.
Maybe the (inevitable) expansion DLC will add a bit more meat to that arc of the trilogy.
I would have liked to have seen a couple stronger ties to DS2 in the story - why does Tsorig have Raime's sword for example? The only thing that I could string together was the picture of Nashandra cementing her connection to the kingdom of Dark Souls 1. She came to Drangleic from a land across the sea, and was born from a fragment of Manus so perhaps she was a citizen of Anor Londo at some point in the past which would explain her portrait being in Irithyll.
Maybe the (inevitable) expansion DLC will add a bit more meat to that arc of the trilogy.
Decent post on Reddit about the convergence of the time periods and locations in Dark Souls 3, creating an amalgamation.
He lost me a bit with the Chaos Flame/Profane Capital bit but I think the majority of it is what I believe right now. Oh, though I don't believe Irithyll and Anor Londo are the same place, I think that's just the cathedral that's appeared. Irithyll is its own place.
I think the Kiln of the First Flame would've been really effective if the twisted distorted Lothric assets that line the walls were a combination of DS1, 2 and 3 locations. Maybe that would've been too much fan service though, lol.
*reposting for new page
He lost me a bit with the Chaos Flame/Profane Capital bit but I think the majority of it is what I believe right now. Oh, though I don't believe Irithyll and Anor Londo are the same place, I think that's just the cathedral that's appeared. Irithyll is its own place.
I think the Kiln of the First Flame would've been really effective if the twisted distorted Lothric assets that line the walls were a combination of DS1, 2 and 3 locations. Maybe that would've been too much fan service though, lol.
*reposting for new page
need to catch up! So many pages and great posts
and IIRC, Ludleth does comment on you finding the eyes/firekeeper's corpse and visiting that particular firelink. So he was either there when it failed or..I dunno!
and IIRC, Ludleth does comment on you finding the eyes/firekeeper's corpse and visiting that particular firelink. So he was either there when it failed or..I dunno!
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
I feel like there's a split between the first firekeepers in Dark Souls 1 and the "First Firekeeper" who is the level-up lady like all the corpses in the tower. There were a bunch of Firekeepers in Dark Souls 1, and unlike the other games you just leveled yourself up at a bonfire in Dark Souls 1. And also not all the Firekeepers in Dark Souls 1 were blind. The girl under the shrine who is killed by Lautrec was just mute I believe, and the brass Firekeeper in Anor Londo seems to function just fine.
Just finished Leonhard's quest, so Rosaria is actually Gwynevere?
"Leonhard set out on a journey of rebirth, but decided to serve the goddess as a knight..."
When he steals her soul he takes it to Gwynevere's old chamber in Anor Londo.
And transposing her soul yields Bountiful Sunlight.
"Leonhard set out on a journey of rebirth, but decided to serve the goddess as a knight..."
When he steals her soul he takes it to Gwynevere's old chamber in Anor Londo.
And transposing her soul yields Bountiful Sunlight.
I like it!
but let's compare their boobs first before jumping to conclusions innit
I DUNNO OGINATH
To be fair, transposing Dancer's souls gives Soothing Sunlight, another Gwynevere miracle.
MichaelFassbender
Member
Is there, ah....
Is there a reason everyone gets gigantic polearms that turn them into whirling dervishes of destruction with reaction times of 0.2 per second per second?
Just asking.
Is there a reason everyone gets gigantic polearms that turn them into whirling dervishes of destruction with reaction times of 0.2 per second per second?
Just asking.
Are you going off anything here? Even visual clues?
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
They're both Gwynevere's daughters. It is known.
In general I'm pretty much never on board with theories that are like "Character X is actually Character Y" whenever both characters have totally different names, especially when they also look totally different, like with Yorshka = Priscilla theories. I don't think that's ever been the case in Souls. Nameless King doesn't count here because A) That's not a name and B) the evidence is overwhelming.
Makes sense, not sure about the Oceiro's Queen tho . Gwynevere was married to Flann, the God of Flame.
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
Hey man we don't know what happened between then and now. I certainly wouldn't let that one throwaway detail from Dark Souls 1 counter all the evidence in this game.
Just of variety of things.
The way she's seemingly enjoying when you bring her "warm ashes". Reminds me of some of that creep Oswald's reactions.
I find it peculiar that you get the key opening the passage to Velka's statue and Irina's (of Carim) cell from her, that she basically makes from ashes. Not just finding it somewhere.
And the fact that she's hanging around in UG firelink shrine makes me think she's special.
Regardless, there's an awful lot going on with Velka even if it's never directly stated.
The crow people, the fact that the fall of the cathedral of the deep is related to them starting using intelligence for miracles (like Velka's), the deep gem giving dark attribute (Velka's rapier is scales with int and has occult attribute - which is essentially dark).
Same with Sirris, she definitely has a connection with Velka. Her talisman makes miracles scale with int, she's a Darkmoon blade (even though Yorshka says you're the only knight, which must related to the little fight Gwyndolin and Velka had), comes from the Sunless Realms and says "blessing of the moon" etc.
I don't think he ate her (though I guess he could have if Priscilla's prison was somehow inside of Gwyndollin's mind, but I think she's just permanently stuck with irremovable magic/curse), I still think that the "connection" between Gwyndolin and Priscilla when Aldritch was eating the former was one from some sort of bind between the two. They're both outcasts and the last remnants, I think it makes a lot of sense for Yorshka to be their kid. The child of the Consumed King is male, and potentially even in the battle.
Gwyndolin gave her her name and poses as her brother. He's basically done everything a parent would just shy of "Yo, I am your dad." The fact that she takes his stead as the head of Darkmoon as the new God and leader just furthers the hereditary symbolism.
Just parry him... I hated this fight.
tamaster92
Member
Some other interesting things i've noticed:
The line where the firekeeper is discussing little lord ludleth. The confusion between something precious and something terrible is interesting. Perhaps it's the firekeeper eyes? Since they are very precious but let her see terrible things - and ludleth knows about them.
Not too much to say about this one but it's a better look at the pilgrim butterflys. They are very very interesting.
The line where the firekeeper is discussing little lord ludleth. The confusion between something precious and something terrible is interesting. Perhaps it's the firekeeper eyes? Since they are very precious but let her see terrible things - and ludleth knows about them.
Not too much to say about this one but it's a better look at the pilgrim butterflys. They are very very interesting.
Yeah, it's tough to argue that names have changed just because. Titles are more fun to play with because they can deceive or add credence to certain theories, like with the Nameless King.
But yeah, they're both children of Gwynevere. It makes the most sense with what we've got available right now.
I totally agree with you with the amount of evidence. Is just that I kind of hate how they try to link so much with DS1 yet they don't wrap up everything.
This is actually a problem I have with a lot of this game lore. Feels to me they had the urge to fanservice DS1 too much in mind.
Did Alsanna influence anything? Seems the Ivory King was far too powerful to be even remotely affected by her (and she was the weakest shard), he died from the Old Chaos' growing power and slowly losing war of attrition with it.
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
I think the world in general in DS3 doesn't look too kindly on the abyss and its children. She was imprisoned after all, and she expects you to hate her as well. She probably isn't used to being accepted anywhere.
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
That's the thing that makes it work, imo. And it's hard to argue with that Divine Blessing description, which uses the exact same wording used to describe her in DS1. Thanks though!
This ENB playthrough is doing my head in a bit. He spends like 2 minutes going full Siegward himself before finally manning up and fighting the demon.
Watching ENB's blind playthrough is honestly pretty frustrating. The release schedule for this game has really kind of frustrated my viewing of all the community leaders. Those of use with access to the Japanese version have gotten so far ahead, and watching ENB go so slowly is just... ugh! Hurry up man!
GwyndolinCinder
Member
Yeah this is the shittest type of reference, i really like the sisters of dark theory where dusk describes in DS1 "A wrenching nostalgia, a lost joy, an object of obsession, and a sincere hope to reclaim it " and the sisters are based on these. So if karla's a thing i guess thats out
Just thought of something when watching the ENB play through...
Is Irina the famous folk tale of the fire keeper who never met her champion? The way Eygon of Carim explains how she wasn't "good enough to become a fire keeper" and then we meet her and she becomes a fire keeper?
Edit: also ENB half makes the point without realising that the Deep is raw humanity
Is Irina the famous folk tale of the fire keeper who never met her champion? The way Eygon of Carim explains how she wasn't "good enough to become a fire keeper" and then we meet her and she becomes a fire keeper?
Edit: also ENB half makes the point without realising that the Deep is raw humanity
I didn't check any guides before ending the game, and thus ended up missing like 5 optional bosses. Shit sux
The ending also felt very abrupt because of that (killed a rather easy cinder dude and the credits rolled, I wasn't even sure he was the final boss because he had a generic name)
Luckily I didn't start NG+, so I'm going back now to finish the optionals underneath Lothric castle.
The ending also felt very abrupt because of that (killed a rather easy cinder dude and the credits rolled, I wasn't even sure he was the final boss because he had a generic name)
Luckily I didn't start NG+, so I'm going back now to finish the optionals underneath Lothric castle.
I had hoped we'd get more from Alsanna and Nadalia (though I guess the former was technically present in Iron King DLC). But Alsanna is completely unresolved unless we are to assume that she remained, forever, at the side of her king and watching over Chaos... but Chaos is retconned in DS3 to disappearing/fading and the demons dying. So what's she up to? Natasha and Elana are dead, and Nadalia is... dead-ish.
I went back and read over the Crowns conclusion in DS2, and, ya, I think my idea on the importance of that ties into why DS3 has no Hollowing unless you are touched by the Dark Sigil/Dark. Vendrick beat Nashandra in the end, and as per the DS2 start "cured Hollowing". Seek the King. This would, then, mean that the Green Herald was not a Queen as many would have suspected, but a puppet for Aldia and Vendrick.
Was Velstadt ever resolved one way or another? Is he Natasha's agent or was he genuinely loyal to his king to the bitter end?
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
ENB plays like he's never touched a souls game and only heard that it's super hard. It's frustrating.
He's gonna lose it again when (if) he finds the stray demon
Yeah it's actually reminding me of Kay Plays who had literally that exact (lack of) experience going into DS1. I understand being methodical - I'm pretty OCD about checking every single corner too, but I don't like, stop at every corner and turn the camera 360 degrees, take 2 steps, stop again, ad nauseum. That shit gets old.
RE: Alsanna, I know next to nothing about the DS2 DLC lore, but with the theory that Profaned Capital was built on Eleum Loyce, could the Profaned Flame maybe be referring to that Chaos?
What? Did you just run straight to the end and not explore any optional paths?
Also, did you skip cutscenes and all dialog. No idea how you couldn't have been able to tell that Soul of Cinder was the final boss.
ENB plays like he's never touched a souls game and only heard that it's super hard. It's frustrating.
He's gonna lose it again when (if) he finds the stray demon
He does not budge an inch for fan service. He's seemed more annoyed/confused for the majority of the gameplay. He seems so damn rusty at Souls.
Also, he complains about "lore" being so integral (which I agree) then forgives any shortcomings because of a fucking gesture?
SargerusBR
I love Pokken!
ENB plays like he's never touched a souls game and only heard that it's super hard. It's frustrating.
He's gonna lose it again when (if) he finds the stray demon
lmao, ENB is going to be full insane once he reaches Anor Londo, you just know it.
Does he hate the fanservice that much? I can kinda relate to him if so, but I also think DS3 toes the line in an interesting way. A good chunk of it might go a bit too far in my opinion, but other stuff is done pretty tastefully. I didn't really mind stuff like Anor Londo, since I don't think it really retcons much or screws with the lore. I also thought the last boss was an incredible send off to the series. It's just when they needlessly add/tie stuff together in a way that muddles the lore that rubs me the wrong way.
Quite frankly, I think most of it isn't even fanservice. It makes sense considering Dark Soul's universe.
The only think I'd consider fan service are the vague references to Demon's Souls.
Even the way he fights is irritating. Like in the last episode, that ambush with the caged undead. It's like he was fighting a tricky boss with no estus left or something. And freaking out over no bonfire. It's Souls, you'll get and it doesn't fucking matter dude.
I don't know, maybe he's still in "no death" mode from his Dragon's Crown run or something.
At this rate he won't beat the game this year.
BlindJesus
Member
I was under the impression they were 'tree' dragons/flies/birds. All around Lothric High Wall you see undead sprouting into trees with their fellow undead praying to them. I think the ones flying have just fully matured into their twisted creations. That being said, I have no idea what the implications of that is.
Wasn't the DS2 lore that eventually, the dead/Hollowed turn into trees? The Giants in DS2 were turning into trees.
Yeah, I don't think this can go anywhere without feeling like a useless repeat.
It's the first time a Souls game has a 3rd ending (not counting Bloodborne here), and I think it's the definitive conclusion to the story (Usurping the flame).
Velka pushed the reset button.
I explored all the optional paths I ran into, and I even killed the 4 fat angels and got the slab. But I completely missed the side path right after Dancer.
I did not skip any cutscenes. It just wasn't very clear that the Soul of Cinder was the final boss. He was the first dude I ran into in the Kiln, and I assumed there would be more.
Couldn't the young, pale girl in hiding in the dream be Gwyindolin himself? Like his/her "true self"? Since you know, raised as a girl, dressed as one and all.
tamaster92
Member
Some better pictures of the butterfly things
Surprising details, they have ribcages on their backs, and their necks/heads are bent backwards. You can clearly see their two legs and two arms as well. Seems to support the tree hollow > pilgrim butterfly transformation
EDIT:
even better one! you can clearly see the spine and ribcage sticking out of its skin
Surprising details, they have ribcages on their backs, and their necks/heads are bent backwards. You can clearly see their two legs and two arms as well. Seems to support the tree hollow > pilgrim butterfly transformation
EDIT:
even better one! you can clearly see the spine and ribcage sticking out of its skin
one thing that is interestin' about the pilgrim butterflies is that during the dragonslayer boss fight only do you see their full form- their wings+tail light on fire and start to look a whole lot like the bed of chaos fire tree dude
also their fireballs have the chaos fb coloring and not regular fb coloring, even if they don't leave lava pools
also their fireballs have the chaos fb coloring and not regular fb coloring, even if they don't leave lava pools
burntchomsky
Member
Alright I'm going to throw a wild theory out here, and you guys can feel free to pick it apart. It's less a theory, and more a hunch that this might be what is going on. In any case, feel free to vehemently disagree.
One thing I couldn't make sense of story-wise this time through was the "True Firelink Shrine" area. The pitch black lighting to me seems to indicate that this is some sort of surreal experience, as does the fact that you are accessing a literal duplicate of another location in the game. However, you transition into this area via normal gameplay, and all of the items you pick up in this surreal area are actual items that stay on your character afterwards. The same is true of the Dragon Shrine area, which you seem to be accessing via meditation, and hence items you pick up there should not be accessible afterwards either, though in fact, they are. One final indication of something amiss is the Kiln of the First Flame at the end of the game. When you look around that area, you see the ruins of many other kingdoms, all on some supernatural decline into...well whatever lies at the bottom of the cliff you are atop. These and other things present a bit of a conundrum and they are what indicates to me that something is drastically off with our perception of the world in the game if we believe it is presenting a realistic occurrence of something in a real (though obviously fictitious) world.
Here's my theory: your character in each of the DS series of games is actually a person who really died in a real kingdom, likely one of those referenced in the game. I know that there are these references about being born with a dark sign and what not, but essentially, I say, disregard that. Your character lived a normal life in one of these kingdoms but he died, and what you are experiencing throughout the game is actually that character's experience of the afterlife. I'm not saying the dark sign doesn't have relevance -- rather, it doesn't mean literally what you are made to think it means by the game. It isn't a literal reality, but symbolizes something, or is a reality inflicted upon your reality by the outside. More on that later.
Now, in many different religions and cultures, the perception of the afterlife is that the spirit of a person leaves the body, and experiences in the afterlife occur in this disembodied state. The narrative sequence of the games that you play through is, then, a construction of your character's own disembodied spirit -- he sees what he/she wants to see, and makes of the world what he/she wants to make it. What would it be like to interact with other disembodied spirits in your own disembodied state, though? Well, I propose that you actually do just that when you interact with other NPCs and players in the world. Each of those other people have their own self-constructed reality which is subtly different than your own, and which you may participate in when you engage in jolly cooperation or invasions. They may have bosses alive that you do not, they may have performed or not performed different actions on the world that have a different effect on it than you did. Their world is their own, unique from yours, and you simply step into it, experiencing what it is like to be in their reality.
This makes sense of the "canon" NPC invasions in this game, some of which are real head scratchers if you think that the game is presenting a coherent depiction of a static reality. For instance, in your world, you have killed the rotting greatwood, and at the bottom of the pit of hollows is Hodrick's corpse. Yet, you are summoned into Sirris's world after you have done this, a world where Hodrick is still alive. WTF? Well it makes sense if her world is a distinctly different reality than yours. In your world, Leonhard doesn't exist in Gwynevere's room, yet in his reality he does.
So -- what about all this stuff about linking the bonfire and making choices to become a dark lord? Well, I think it is somehow symbolic, it is representing a choice the spirit of your character may make within his/her distinct reality. Perhaps linking the bonfire symbolizes that the spirit wishes to remain disembodied and in his/her current state, while to become a dark lord symbolizes -- something else? I'm not sure. There are quite a few unanswered questions this all raises, but it does make sense of some of the data much better than theories which posit the world of the game as a reality. Oh, finally, regarding the locations in the game, and the bosses, etc., I think they may or may not have been real things from the character's life, or they may represent distinct realities which are being forced upon the spirit from the outside -- i.e. other characters, or some other force is pushing them into the created reality of your character.
Also, and finally, this theory might be true only for this DS, or it might be true for all of them, or it might be true for some of them, I'm not sure. I would just propose that it is true for DS3, and possibly the other games as well.
One thing I couldn't make sense of story-wise this time through was the "True Firelink Shrine" area. The pitch black lighting to me seems to indicate that this is some sort of surreal experience, as does the fact that you are accessing a literal duplicate of another location in the game. However, you transition into this area via normal gameplay, and all of the items you pick up in this surreal area are actual items that stay on your character afterwards. The same is true of the Dragon Shrine area, which you seem to be accessing via meditation, and hence items you pick up there should not be accessible afterwards either, though in fact, they are. One final indication of something amiss is the Kiln of the First Flame at the end of the game. When you look around that area, you see the ruins of many other kingdoms, all on some supernatural decline into...well whatever lies at the bottom of the cliff you are atop. These and other things present a bit of a conundrum and they are what indicates to me that something is drastically off with our perception of the world in the game if we believe it is presenting a realistic occurrence of something in a real (though obviously fictitious) world.
Here's my theory: your character in each of the DS series of games is actually a person who really died in a real kingdom, likely one of those referenced in the game. I know that there are these references about being born with a dark sign and what not, but essentially, I say, disregard that. Your character lived a normal life in one of these kingdoms but he died, and what you are experiencing throughout the game is actually that character's experience of the afterlife. I'm not saying the dark sign doesn't have relevance -- rather, it doesn't mean literally what you are made to think it means by the game. It isn't a literal reality, but symbolizes something, or is a reality inflicted upon your reality by the outside. More on that later.
Now, in many different religions and cultures, the perception of the afterlife is that the spirit of a person leaves the body, and experiences in the afterlife occur in this disembodied state. The narrative sequence of the games that you play through is, then, a construction of your character's own disembodied spirit -- he sees what he/she wants to see, and makes of the world what he/she wants to make it. What would it be like to interact with other disembodied spirits in your own disembodied state, though? Well, I propose that you actually do just that when you interact with other NPCs and players in the world. Each of those other people have their own self-constructed reality which is subtly different than your own, and which you may participate in when you engage in jolly cooperation or invasions. They may have bosses alive that you do not, they may have performed or not performed different actions on the world that have a different effect on it than you did. Their world is their own, unique from yours, and you simply step into it, experiencing what it is like to be in their reality.
This makes sense of the "canon" NPC invasions in this game, some of which are real head scratchers if you think that the game is presenting a coherent depiction of a static reality. For instance, in your world, you have killed the rotting greatwood, and at the bottom of the pit of hollows is Hodrick's corpse. Yet, you are summoned into Sirris's world after you have done this, a world where Hodrick is still alive. WTF? Well it makes sense if her world is a distinctly different reality than yours. In your world, Leonhard doesn't exist in Gwynevere's room, yet in his reality he does.
So -- what about all this stuff about linking the bonfire and making choices to become a dark lord? Well, I think it is somehow symbolic, it is representing a choice the spirit of your character may make within his/her distinct reality. Perhaps linking the bonfire symbolizes that the spirit wishes to remain disembodied and in his/her current state, while to become a dark lord symbolizes -- something else? I'm not sure. There are quite a few unanswered questions this all raises, but it does make sense of some of the data much better than theories which posit the world of the game as a reality. Oh, finally, regarding the locations in the game, and the bosses, etc., I think they may or may not have been real things from the character's life, or they may represent distinct realities which are being forced upon the spirit from the outside -- i.e. other characters, or some other force is pushing them into the created reality of your character.
Also, and finally, this theory might be true only for this DS, or it might be true for all of them, or it might be true for some of them, I'm not sure. I would just propose that it is true for DS3, and possibly the other games as well.