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Dark Souls 3 Story and Lore Discussion [Unmarked Spoilers]

The abyss seems reaaaaaaaaaaally finicky this time around in dark souls 3. Like it seems to be in a lot of different places but also manifests in a lot of different ways. Seems even contradictory sometimes. From Aldrich of "the deep" with his gooeyness, Pontiff might've dabbled with it who knows. The darkwraiths and pilgrims of Londor apparently tied to it but for a different reason, and form. And now these hand guys and many other monsters, or the hollows with weird goosnakes popping out of them.

There's defo something pretty wild going on with the abyss and I hope we get some stuff about that
 
From what I can tell the Abyss and The Deep are not the same thing.

It's very confusing to be honest.

I wish I could remember where I read this (I'm pretty sure it's in an item description, but I can't remember which item) - the Deep represents some kind of age of water that the cult of the deep wants to bring forth. Aldrich's boss room being filled with weird dark water seems related to that.

Earlier in this thread, Noray mentioned a connection with Lunar power (which controls the tides), explaining why Aldrich would consume Gwyndolin and take his power. There's also some connection with Sulyvahn which I can't quite figure out; the description for one of this swords refers to a lunar energy which is actually closer to magic.

edit: They're probably both "dark" because darkness is the default state when the light goes out. In that sense, the dark of both the "deep" and "dark" future isn't a thing, it's simply the lack of the fire. I guess the dark soul has a certain permanence that the souls that came from the fire don't have.
 
I wish I could remember where I read this (I'm pretty sure it's in an item description, but I can't remember which item) - the Deep represents some kind of age of water that the cult of the deep wants to bring forth. Aldrich's boss room being filled with weird dark water seems related to that.

The deep is a place.

Aldrich foresaw the coming of an "age of water".
 
Moon and Dark and pretty different things, tho, as moon assumes the sun will rise again someday (which is the whole point of Gwyndolin).

"Abyss" dark is the flame going out for good (and on purpose).
"Moon" dark is the flame going out because there is nothing anyone can do, but plans are in motion to restore it.

I have no idea how the Deep fits into that, tho.
 
Well I'm glad I'm not the only one confused. Also doesn't make too much sense why Lothric had the biggest throne in the shrine. Last hope of is holy line is dramatic sure, but all the Lords of Cinder should pretty much be on level pegging shouldn't they? Then again I guess Yhorm wasn't even the right size for his throne so maybe I'm reading too much into it.

The Lothric brothers just confused me, personally. I didn't even realize the main character was going to fight them, I thought I was looking for the King.

Then there is Ocelotte, doesn't he have the "Lord" potential too? The High Priest even tells you to tell him that.

But once you get to the castle, the whole thing just sorta... disappear.
 
The deep is a place.

Aldrich foresaw the coming of an "age of water".

What's the indication that it's a place?

edit: This page refers to the Deep as a darkness that is "far beyond humanity."

Aldrich is also classified as "abyssal." I'd say the Deep is simply another kind of Dark. It makes sense there'd be a multitude of dark powers since the world is inherently dark and it's inhabited by more than just humans.

I'm also confused about how the Faith stat relates to Dark, you'd think it would tend towards the opposite. It was speculated in Dark Souls 1 that Miracles came from the the Lords (i.e. the fire). I have no idea what that would imply in Dark Souls 3.
 
The Lothric brothers just confused me, personally. I didn't even realize the main character was going to fight them, I thought I was looking for the King.

Then there is Ocelotte, doesn't he have the "Lord" potential too? The High Priest even tells you to tell him that.

But once you get to the castle, the whole thing just sorta... disappear.

My assumption right now is that just like the Abyss Watchers lord status isn't connected to a person, but to the group; Lothric lordship is connected to the royal blood and not any person in particular. It might even be automatically whoever is "the last of the line" (which is why the younger is the lord).
 
I think the Unkindled state was an attempt by the Lords to have a better champion this time around. But as usual, you can be swayed both ways, so the Kaathe team turns you into a DS1-like undead.

If the Undead state was a scheme by the Lords to have humans sacrifice parts of the Dark Soul to keep the Flame going, it was also dangerous, because it makes them more susceptible to the Abyss. The scar on Hollowing bodies is quite reminiscent of the "black goop" we see on Iudex and hollows that turn into Abyss monsters.

Members of the Church were also given a special attire to shield them from that:
"They bore large covers on their backs to ensure that they would not become seedbeds for spreading darkness"

It is very reminiscent of Pilgrims, but we can see that something is sprouting from their back, underneath the stone cover that looks just like the Cleric Set accessory.
It's made of stone and all chained up because I think it's to keep the Pilgrim Butterflies from hatching from them until they've reached Lothric. That's probably why the bridge was taken down, to limit the invasion. It's quite clear that a battle took place.

It is also very reminiscent of Sulyvahn's wings in the 2nd phase of the fight.

So picking a few "chosen" undeads and making them now immune to the curse seems like an attempt at preventing the bad side effects of the curse. I wonder if the whole bonfire creation mechanism that was scrapped was supposed to consume embers. That would make a lot of sense.

As for the nature of the world, I'm more and more convinced that it's not Lordran at a later date. "Where the lands of the Lords converge", which is why there's no need for "teleportation" anymore, it's literally parallel worlds physically merging. Lordran, Lothric, Drangleic, Irythrill and Courland.
 
Just watching ENB's play through and something Cornyx says pretty much confirms that different places are converging upon Lothric. I.e. This isn't Lordran but parts of Lordran are here.

Edit: looking for transcription.
 
Just watching ENB's play through and something Cornyx says pretty much confirms that different places are converging upon Lothric. I.e. This isn't Lordran but parts of Lordran are here.

Edit: looking for transcription.

That particular line is told several times by different people anyway.
 
The deep is a place.

Aldrich foresaw the coming of an "age of water".

Nobody is listening, and so we're getting the same baseless speculations over and over again. Guys, seriously, The Deep is described as a place in the item descriptions (though I wish I could remember exactly where it's stated), that should be enough to nip the "Deep = Dark" debates in the bud, or at the very least it should be taken into consideration before going into too much thought on the matter.
 
With all the talk about Prince Lothric probably being the only one of the Lords who didn't link the fire, I find it interesting no-one seems to have mentioned his ashes are the only ones that aren't a skull on the throne like the Abyss Watchers/Yhorm/Aldrich (unless, of course, I missed someone else saying it).
Although I guess Ludleth also only leaves behind his crown. Still, small bit of symbolism at least.
 
The age of water thing was one of the most interesting lore points of the game imho.

Is this some kind of tip about the next games? We'll see.
 
With all the talk about Prince Lothric probably being the only one of the Lords who didn't link the fire, I find it interesting no-one seems to have mentioned his ashes are the only ones that aren't a skull on the throne like the Abyss Watchers/Yhorm/Aldrich (unless, of course, I missed someone else saying it).
Although I guess Ludleth also only leaves behind his crown. Still, small bit of symbolism at least.

The thing you get from killing him are still cinders of a lord, right? That should be a major indication that he has some connection to linking the fire, since why else would he revert to cinders?
 
Nobody is listening, and so we're getting the same baseless speculations over and over again. Guys, seriously, The Deep is described as a place in the item descriptions, that should be enough to nip the "Deep = Dark" debates in the bud, or at the very least it should be taken into consideration before going into too much thought on the matter.

I asked for a source that the Deep is a place, and provided sources for my own speculation.

I'm not seeing a source in your reply.

You can't expect everyone to have gone through and memorized all 25 pages of this thread. Maybe this was answered before, but such are the limitations of forums, and I'm afraid you'll just have to live with it.
 
The thing you get from killing him are still cinders of a lord, right? That should be a major indication that he has some connection to linking the fire, since why else would he revert to cinders?

Perhaps. I'm only noting that his don't get placed as a skull on the throne, but those of Aldrich, Yhorm, and the Abyss Watchers do.
 
I asked for a source that the Deep is a place, and provided sources for my own speculation.

I'm not seeing a source in your reply.

You can't expect everyone to have gone through and memorized all 25 pages of this thread. Maybe this was answered before, but such are the limitations of forums, and I'm afraid you'll just have to live with it.

Maybe I'm weird in thinking this, but everyone who participates in a lore thread SHOULD be expected to have at least tried to go through the past discussions. Otherwise, we'll be going in circles forever.
 
Super obvious and probably mentioned ad nauseum- the cycle of fire just refers to the Dark Souls series. Even though the third game is (technically?) considered to be the last, From will likely revisit it at some point. (Tiny flames in the distance of whatever) Although maybe not in the same exact form.

And the "Deep" could simply be a potential theme for that reprisal. Or they could just be teasing Bloodborne 2. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they tried to tie the two series (Dark Souls and Bloodborne) in the future, licensing issues aside.
 
Maybe I'm weird in thinking this, but everyone who participates in a lore thread SHOULD be expected to have at least tried to go through the past discussions. Otherwise, we'll be going in circles forever.

You know you can just ignore those people who don't acknowledge your discoveries because they haven't read all 25 pages, right? That's if you don't feel like providing sources when asked.

The entire Deep thing is seriously confusing. Aldrich of the Deep isn't from "The Deep," he's from Irythill. Maybe it's not as clear cut as your claim of definitive evidence suggests. I don't know, I can't seem to find this evidence.
 
The Cathedral of the Deep is thematically very much like the Church of Yarnham. At least ever since Sulyvahn took over.
It's also right next to an ocean, so the blue uniforms and whole "deep sea" thing are maybe just that.
 
I need to talk to ludleth more and read up on the lords but what if the four lords of cinder are the ones who DIDNT link the flame and the ones who did link it are the last boss?

That would make sense but I'm fairly certain they explicitly state that ludleth and yhorm linked it :(
 
One question I have is about the timeline of the games... if Dark Souls 2 takes place to many years after the first that names and places are forgotten, why are the same locations and names commonplace in Dark Souls 3 which is even farther removed from dark Souls? Only thing I can think of is Miyazaki kind of ignored most details of DS2 and instead went about making a sequel to Dark Souls as opposed to the second one...
 
One question I have is about the timeline of the games... if Dark Souls 2 takes place to many years after the first that names and places are forgotten, why are the same locations and names commonplace in Dark Souls 3 which is even farther removed from dark Souls? Only thing I can think of is Miyazaki kind of ignored most details of DS2 and instead went about making a sequel to Dark Souls as opposed to the second one...

Partly purely for reference/pandering sake, but it's also justified as plenty of lands, old and new, as well as their warriors have resurfaced and are converging together into a giant mess due to "shit bein' fucked yo".

But souls 3 really did al ot of weird stuff to Souls 2's lore and setting, to the point where it seems almost spinoffy now. Some speculate that the events of 2 just take place in a completely separate reality that could've "broke off" after souls 1 but seems more of a justification (moreso because souls 2's lore was finicky to begin with). But yeah it does feel like Souls 3 is kinda pushing 2 aside and going "nooo, I'M the real 2 !"
 
Partly purely for reference/pandering sake, but it's also justified as plenty of lands, old and new, as well as their warriors have resurfaced and are converging together into a giant mess due to "shit bein' fucked yo".

But souls 3 really did al ot of weird stuff to Souls 2's lore and setting, to the point where it seems almost spinoffy now. Some speculate that the events of 2 just take place in a completely separate reality that could've "broke off" after souls 1 but seems more of a justification (moreso because souls 2's lore was finicky to begin with). But yeah it does feel like Souls 3 is kinda pushing 2 aside and going "nooo, I'M the real 2 !"

Yes, Dark Souls 3 basically ignored Dark Soul 2, not surprisad after all that lore mess but Miyazaki did the same in Dark Souls 3 with the unkindle and the cinder lords
 
Is there any significant DS2 lore in DS3?

There are still some heavy references.

Mirrah and Creighton's set. The biggest one I found was the shield of want which straight up references Vendrick. The silvercat ring references the cat from Majula. And a few other little things

So Dark souls 2 hasn't been erased, quite the contrary. It still happened. It's just...conveniently not mentionned in major plot points
 
Maybe I'm weird in thinking this, but everyone who participates in a lore thread SHOULD be expected to have at least tried to go through the past discussions. Otherwise, we'll be going in circles forever.

It's gonna get much worse in a week or two when the Nito conversations start again.

I wouldn't have thought I'd be saying this a month ago but im really hoping Vaati comes through with some big lore videos that clear up a lot of the basic stuff.
that isn't presented in overly-emotional and pretentious videos based on his own headcanon

Is there any significant DS2 lore in DS3?

Not significant, no. Mainly references.
 
It's gonna get much worse in a week or two when the Nito conversations start again.

I wouldn't have thought I'd be saying this a month ago but im really hoping Vaati comes through with some big lore videos that clear up a lot of the basic stuff.
that isn't presented in overly-emotional and pretentious videos based on his own headcanon

BUT IS ALDRICH SECRETLY LUDWIG SINCE HE'S FROM THE DEEP !!

I usually have my own rules to Souls lore myself that so far works pretty well: If it's not/barely mentionned, it's not relevant. That and i'm less interested in the "How" and more by the "Why" (which is why i'm so frustrated by you Pontiff Sullyvan you sneaky fuck)
 
There are still some heavy references.

Mirrah and Creighton's set. The biggest one I found was the shield of want which straight up references Vendrick. The silvercat ring references the cat from Majula. And a few other little things

So Dark souls 2 hasn't been erased, quite the contrary. It still happened. It's just...conveniently not mentionned in major plot points

But those are references, there are mentions of Dark Souls 2 stuff but still Dark Souls 3 revived all Dark Souls 1 locations for the sake of its own story
 
But those are references, there are mentions of Dark Souls 2 stuff but still Dark Souls 3 revived all Dark Souls 1 locations for the sake of its own story

Yeah, not disagreeing that Souls 3 basically handwaved most of souls 2 away, just keeping some little nods that are mostly passed as "myths" and stories rather than actual events.

It's gonna make future playthrough of souls 2 awkward for people who played souls 3 first. Manu has some interesting theory about Aldia (and there is a reference of a "first scholar" who influenced Lothric in his decision if I recall) but i'll wait and see if the DLCs actualyl give credence to that
 
I will say though I was kind of disappointed in this iteration of Anor Londo. It was just too... small, just the throne room/hallway really. I was hoping maybe DS3 could give us a level as huge and sprawling as the DS1 Anor Londo, but focusing on a different part of the city rather than the same old areas.
 
I will say though I was kind of disappointed in this iteration of Anor Londo. It was just too... small, just the throne room/hallway really. I was hoping maybe DS3 could give us a level as huge and sprawling as the DS1 Anor Londo, but focusing on a different part of the city rather than the same old areas.

well, i think Irithyll is part of Anor Londo citadel (the lower part).
 
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