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[Manu]

You need to add cheap, undodgeable instant kills to your list OP.

It was at the point in DS1 where, after taking ages to defeat Tauros, I think, I came to a giant bridge. As soon as I was slightly across that bridge a dragon swoops down and engulfs the entire bridge in flames that kill you instantly. There is also no bonfire between this bridge and the boss you've just beaten. That was where I knew it was time to just give up and stop wasting my time and energy and move on to superior games.

Also, easier difficulty does NOT defeat the purpose of the game. It makes it accessible to a wider audience and is entirely optional to people who don't want that.
The main reason people seem to not want souls games to have easier difficulties isn't because they think the game is better that way or it's "how the game is meant to be", I tend to find that it's more simply so that people can brag how awesome they are at games because they can win at Soulsbourn and don't want more people intruding on 'their turf'.

This is like the quintessential Souls thread shitpost.

It even has the "Souls fans just like to brag" line. Just beautiful.

 

[Necron]

The only big issue I've had with Dark Souls/Bloodborne is the camera (especially noticeable on larger enemies).

 

[Dragon1893]

The clipping through walls is really annoying. Those pigs in Bloodborne, ugh...

 

[LegendofLex]

*Pausing in offline mode would be nice but i don't know what would ever be so urgent to not be able to use the alternative that takes a couple more button presses.(maybe some half presses would be faster... )

Having bladder/bowel issues that come on suddenly
Someone knocking at the door
Your child looks like they might fall and hurt themselves
Literally anything that people would normally pause for because it's a fucking video game

There's no reason why I should have to quit and reload the game for that when a better option is already standard in most games.

 

[Horsemama1956]

Every game has an issue or 2 at the very least... People don't care for the same reason they enjoy any other game. No such thing as a perfect game.

Having bladder/bowel issues that come on suddenly
Someone knocking at the door
Your child looks like they might fall and hurt themselves
Literally anything that people would normally pause for because it's a fucking video game

There's no reason why I should have to quit and reload the game for that when a better option is already standard in most games.

Understandable.. But it's like 30 seconds of waiting. Even if you're playing single player, you'd have the same issue if you were playing most online games.

 

[TeddyShardik]

Don't you understand though? All the games flaws are just woven into the game's overall narrative! Unless it's DS2 in which case it's garbage.

Yeah for real though people are way to forgiving of souls games. To a lot of these people the idea that the franchise is anything less than perfect is heresy, and they'll pull out any excuse to cover for any faults.

You must have missed all the critcisms people throw at every single game in the series. It's okay though, you just keep living in your own little world there.

 

[Fahzgoolin]

It's sort of a waste to transpose most of them even for weapons you can use, since boss weapons inexplicably can't be infused or buffed for some unknowable reason, which means they're all just automatically worse than equivalent mundane weapons.

They're more for fooling around and (hopefully) getting to be able to do a neat-looking "boss move" with the weapon art than actually ever being good.

exactly. you and others stated it perfectly.

Dark Souls 1 boss souls were so important, but in 3 they are frankly rather worthless.

 

[Silent Chief]

The game autosaves every few seconds, when you die your stain will be at the last save where you were still alive. That's a good design decision. A bad one would be to put the stain at the exact spot where you died, in a pool of lava for example.

Magic fireballs that home on you is perfectly logical. A charged plasma shot that homes on you seems silly. There's navigational aid and a guidance system in that plasma shot?

 

[JudgmentJay]

You need to add cheap, undodgeable instant kills to your list OP.

It was at the point in DS1 where, after taking ages to defeat Tauros, I think, I came to a giant bridge. As soon as I was slightly across that bridge a dragon swoops down and engulfs the entire bridge in flames that kill you instantly. There is also no bonfire between this bridge and the boss you've just beaten. That was where I knew it was time to just give up and stop wasting my time and energy and move on to superior games.

Also, easier difficulty does NOT defeat the purpose of the game. It makes it accessible to a wider audience and is entirely optional to people who don't want that.
The main reason people seem to not want souls games to have easier difficulties isn't because they think the game is better that way or it's "how the game is meant to be", I tend to find that it's more simply so that people can brag how awesome they are at games because they can win at Soulsbourn and don't want more people intruding on 'their turf'.

Yikes x2.

 

[TeddyShardik]

Having Hibladder/bowel issues that come on suddenly
Someone knocking at the door
Your child looks like they might fall and hurt themselves
Literally anything that people would normally pause for because it's a fucking video game

There's no reason why I should have to quit and reload the game for that when a better option is already standard in most games.

If you can't hold it in for half a second longer maybe you should see a doctor...or get a handheld and play games on the throne. Also don't play video games when you're supposed to watch your children.

 

[Silent Chief]

exactly. you and others stated it perfectly.

Dark Souls 1 boss souls were so important, but in 3 they are frankly rather worthless.

Many have spells and weapons with unique moves and they can be buffed to +5.

DS3 has a great weapon set. Many players try to use the same OP weapon as everyone else, but there's lots of interesting variants that give players pose when you whip out a move. Also, I bet you never had to grind for perfect bladestone.

 

[icespide]

I really enjoy the Souls games but I've grown tired of the boss fights. I've gotten to the point now where I summon for all of the boss fights so I can enjoy the next area

 

[Fahzgoolin]

If you can't hold it in for half a second longer maybe you should see a doctor...or get a handheld and play games on the throne. Also don't play video games when you're supposed to watch your children.

wtf

 

[LegendofLex]

Understandable.. But it's like 30 seconds of waiting. Even if you're playing single player, you'd have the same issue if you were playing most online games.

In online games there's a reason you can't pause.

Souls games have a "longer than a loadtime" pausing tax... why, exactly? What benefit does this provide?

It's not the worst thing in the world, but it's probably one of the weirder things I've seen people try to defend (they've also never provided an adequate answer to my questions above).

If you can't hold it in for half a second longer maybe you should see a doctor...or get a handheld and play games on the throne. Also don't play video games when you're supposed to watch your children.

1) no shit
2) no parent has their eyes on their kid 100% of the time

 

[TeddyShardik]

wtf

What? It takes like two or three more button presses to quit to the title screen than a pause button. If that is the difference that makes you wet yourself there is something wrong I think.
That second sentence wasn't 100% serious.

Edit: Just to be clear. As I originally said a pause for offline mode would be absolutely a good addition. I just don't think it missing is this huge problem some people convinced themselves it is.
It's just something everyone likes to use for their "elitist dark souls community" speech every time. It gets annoying.

 

[Montresor]

Most of those items in the OP's original list don't sound like bad design decisions. They all sound legitimate gimmicks to make the game harder.

These I would agree with:

-Kicking is the same button press as your standard sword swing. You press RB to swing and you have to press RB + up to kick. This can lead to obvious problems and is just awkward.

-Certain classes and attributes are extremely worthless in comparison to others, frustrating players that don't have experience with the "way these games usually work."

I find it interesting that in the entire list, "You're not allowed to pause" was nowhere to be found. Not being able to pause is a dealbreaker for a video game.

 

[Transistor]

A lot of fair points (which will be handwaved away by fanboys) and I would also add that a lot of enemies (in DS3 anyway) dont obey the same rules of poise and stamina that you do. Or maybe they just have a cheap, ridiculous amount of it.



Fucking LOL. DS3 has some absolutely atrocious hitboxes and enemy attacks hitting you through walls.

In my defense, I haven't finished DS3.

 

[Fahzgoolin]

What? It takes like two or three more button presses to quit to the title screen than a pause button. If that is the difference that makes you wet yourself there is something wrong I think.
That second sentence wasn't 100% serious.

Pausing would not affect the game. Sometimes you need to divert your attention immediately from the game, whether for an emergency or simply giving your wife the attention she deserves when talking to you. Your post was needlessly aggressive and harsh for no reason.

 

[mattiewheels]

Wholeheartedly agree with complaint about enemy weapons not having collision with the walls. I always thought that would be the best addition to 3.

 

[InsaneTiger]

I really enjoy the Souls games but I've grown tired of the boss fights. I've gotten to the point now where I summon for all of the boss fights so I can enjoy the next area

I thought I was the only one. I am at the point in my life where I just want to move on and not grind a boss.

 

[HeelPower]

I was expecting major flaws I somehow overlooked or didnt realize.

Only found minor nitpicks.

 

[Weltall Zero]

Just because a point I made is not always true doesn't mean it's false all the time. People aren't understanding that. Perhaps I should have been more specific.

I don't know what exactly you're referring to with the above. Which would indeed point towards a marked lack of specification.

Also the fact that enemies do cheap things "but you can do it too" response doesn't work for me. That's just irksome design that should be reworked.

Well, show us that that game development training paid of and explain in precise, design-document detail how you would rework it in a way that is technically feasible and preserves the challenge.

 

[TeddyShardik]

Pausing would not affect the game. Sometimes you need to divert your attention immediately from the game, whether for an emergency or simply giving your wife the attention she deserves when talking to you. Your post was needlessly aggressive and harsh for no reason.

Then divert your attention. At worst you lose in a video game.
I apologize if it seems aggressive. Actually my original post was meant to be taken in jest. Didn't work I guess.
It does fet annoying seeing the same little things getting blown up to huge problems every time though as I stated in my edit above.

 

[Iva Demilcol]

I mostly agree with what you said OP, even if some of these things are intended and therefore they'd be design choices, they are still bad design choices. They are not game breakers though, and that's why many people just see them as minor annoyances.

The only thing I don't agree with is the bit about boss souls. I mean, you have characters whose only purpose is to give you *takes out megaphone* BOSS WEAPONS.

Other than that the only thing I'd add would be the bad camera, which is the most difficult boss of the games.

Also, this game doesn't benefit from a pause button so, stop asking for that. D:

 

[RPGam3r]

I love these games but the defense they get is off, except for DS2 which is "shit".

My biggest complaints are the lack of pause, low production value on most NPC not moving their mouths, and the neat but completely nonsensical and super cheap way of story telling by putting descriptions on items.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

You need to add cheap, undodgeable instant kills to your list OP.

It was at the point in DS1 where, after taking ages to defeat Tauros, I think, I came to a giant bridge. As soon as I was slightly across that bridge a dragon swoops down and engulfs the entire bridge in flames that kill you instantly. There is also no bonfire between this bridge and the boss you've just beaten. That was where I knew it was time to just give up and stop wasting my time and energy and move on to superior games.

Also, easier difficulty does NOT defeat the purpose of the game. It makes it accessible to a wider audience and is entirely optional to people who don't want that.
The main reason people seem to not want souls games to have easier difficulties isn't because they think the game is better that way or it's "how the game is meant to be", I tend to find that it's more simply so that people can brag how awesome they are at games because they can win at Soulsbourn and don't want more people intruding on 'their turf'.

This can be solved by not seeing your deaths as a punishment, but as a learning experience.

There are definitely moments which push that but those hilarious instant one hit kills are often so ridiculous you can't help but smile, and know to avoid them next time.

 

[mishakoz]

Easier difficulty defeats the purpose of the game, of course it can be done but it changes the experience completely and I'm sure devs wouldn't want that. I understand the rest and agree with some of them.

Regarding difficulty, what I hate is cheap difficulty, it doesn't happen often but it happens.

Basically what I am saying. Difficulty only changes the experience for those who choose it. Xcom is super hard on its hardest difficulty, and makes things feel very dire, but I would never force that upon anyone.

So, as you and other responded to my post, that's bloodborne baby.

 

[balohna]

Also, just an FYI I have been learning game development.

Not surprising given the "I know good game design" attitude.

It becomes a bit different when you have to choose between shipping a game-breaking or blocking bug, or something most players won't notice or think about.

 

[IdreamofHIME]

Yup the clipping is bullshit. You learn to get around it, but it was very noticeable in Irthyll Valley and its Dungeons where the enemies were way too big for the limited space they had to attack and manoeuvre in.

 

[Anticol]

From playing bloodborne and talking about it, it seems like the defense for bad design is always "but that's bloodborne/souls baby"

*Lips dont move
*Controls written lazily on the floor
*Can't pause
*One hit kills no matter what level you may
*Some things aren't explained
*Some areas are incredibly obscure to reach
*No easier difficulty

Drives me insane, that's not a defense, those are flaws and they are overlooked because dammit it's a great game, I just wish people weren't so blinded to how it can be improved.

Ok, op make some valid points and at least try to give some explanation to them, but this? Really?

 

[Samikaze]

As much as I enjoy the Souls games, the real issue is the double standard it's created int he industry.
They're able to get away with a ton more issues and faults than any other franchise, just because of their loyal fans.

-If the next Elder Scrolls were to come out without a pause button, I guarantee no one here would be defending that choice.

-What if Witcher's new Blood and Wine DLC released with no facial animations? It would be laughed at.

-People tear apart games for having bad collision detection and hitboxes, but for Souls it's "part of the experience".

It's okay to acknowledge your favorite game's faults. The rationalizing has to end.

 

[MilkBeard]

For difficulty:. The souls games are all about the combat. That's literally all they are. There is lore, but there really Isnt much of a story to miss. Having an easy difficulty makes sense when the game's focus is on advancing the story.

In Souls, it would literally take away a major point to the game. Having an easier difficulty would be there just for completion's sake: You get through it so you could get through it. There's literally not much reward to simply finishing a Souls game.

But alas, I can see this argument going on forever. People are frustrated when a game design isn't targeted for them.

This is why I say, 'lol keep dreaming ' whenever this topic comes up. Fromsoft has always developed niche titles. Success is nice, but they make games that they want to make. I don't care if the design doesn't appeal to the widest fanbase. That argument is literally garbage. Their games have a unique appeal. They can definitely improve, but difficulty for a game that revolves entirely around combat progression is a core design element to the series. You literally want a different game.

 

[Steel]

I mean, there are some bad design decisions(going from bonfire level up to hub level up from DS to DS2, for example) but I don't really agree with the ones you laid out, OP, for reasons that have already been said in the thread.

As much as I enjoy the Souls games, the real issue is the double standard it's created int he industry.
They're able to get away with a ton more issues and faults than any other franchise, just because of their loyal fans.

-If the next Elder Scrolls were to come out without a pause button, I guarantee no one here would be defending that choice.

-What if Witcher's new Blood and Wine DLC released with no facial animations? It would be laughed at.

-People tear apart games for having bad collision detection and hitboxes, but for Souls it's "part of the experience".

It's okay to acknowledge your favorite game's faults. The rationalizing has to end.

I agree with the facial animations thing, not that it's a big issue for me as you don't actually spend that much time talking, unlike in witcher... But I disagree with everything else. DS2's hitboxes were mediocre, but even then they were better than most action games. DS 1 and 3 hitboxes are godtier 90% of the time.

The pause thing... Yeah, no. If Dead Space had an inventory pause it'd take away from the experience, you can always quit in 3 button presses if you need to do something.

 

[NinjamicWZ]

As much as I enjoy the Souls games, the real issue is the double standard it's created int he industry.
They're able to get away with a ton more issues and faults than any other franchise, just because of their loyal fans.

-If the next Elder Scrolls were to come out without a pause button, I guarantee no one here would be defending that choice.

-What if Witcher's new Blood and Wine DLC released with no facial animations? It would be laughed at.

-People tear apart games for having bad collision detection and hitboxes, but for Souls it's "part of the experience".

It's okay to acknowledge your favorite game's faults. The rationalizing has to end.

Proposes that Souls games get away with too much... immediately contrasts to a Bethesda game.

 

[Boney]

There's much bigger problems than anything you mentioned. Those aren't design decisions, they're either just coding shortcuts or just not worth the trouble to do. Imagine having to go through the trouble ok making all enemies have animation about walking on thick swamp. It's just a stupid waste of time, the bad design here is putting those giant assholes in demon souls when you can't even roll in the swamp.

My biggest issue and I'm not sure if they fixed it in blood borne or ds3 is that enemies should have a Agro perimeter in which all monsters inside should get agroed as well. Throwing an arrow to a dude and have the other guy just stand there looking at how the other comes running towards you is terrible. I realize it's because they didn't include such an option but it really hurts the immersion and allows for cheap tactics.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

As much as I enjoy the Souls games, the real issue is the double standard it's created int he industry.
They're able to get away with a ton more issues and faults than any other franchise, just because of their loyal fans.

theres a difference between "faults" and "conscious choices to prioritise certain features"

-If the next Elder Scrolls were to come out without a pause button, I guarantee no one here would be defending that choice.

Pausing would remove all tension from boss fights, and there is essentially a pause button already. Get a bit away from enemies and hit quit game.

-What if Witcher's new Blood and Wine DLC released with no facial animations? It would be laughed at.

It would be derided because The Witcher 3 is a game with a heavy focus on storytelling, narrative and characterisation. This is another example of prioritising during development. Notice that Blood and Wine will probably still have mediocre combat.

-People tear apart games for having bad collision detection and hitboxes, but for Souls it's "part of the experience".

I don't think I've seen anyone defend the shitty hit boxes because they're rubbish.

 

[Skyball Paint]

It's sort of a waste to transpose most of them even for weapons you can use, since boss weapons inexplicably can't be infused or buffed for some unknowable reason, which means they're all just automatically worse than equivalent mundane weapons.

True, the fat stack of resin you could buy with a boss soul is probably more useful than the weapon you can make from it.

 

[Steel]

I don't think I've seen anyone defend the shitty hit boxes because they're rubbish.

DS 1 and 3 hitbox gifs inbound. They're shitty occasionally, and definitely shitty in PVP, but most of the time they're great.

 

[Dr_Boris_Goltz]

Fahzgoolin it's SUPER hard to defend against some Souls fans. They'll justify absolutely anything and in the process question your skill.

It's my favorite series, but I can still see that the games aren't perfect. Worse still, a lot of the imperfections have been around since Demon's Souls.

 

[Sande]

I ignore nothing but I've accepted From's inability/unwillingness to evolve.

Hell, you can't really even blame them when there's no competition. They have absolutely no need to.

Edit: Actually read the OP now and most of those are either incredibly nitpicky or just wrong. These games have plenty of real problems too.

I really enjoy the Souls games but I've grown tired of the boss fights. I've gotten to the point now where I summon for all of the boss fights so I can enjoy the next area

It's the opposite for me. The bosses are infinitely entertaining but I can't be bothered with the areas after the first or second playthrough.

I really wish there was some reasonable way to replay bosses.

 

[E-flux]

I don't really get most of your complaints, I mean i do get them but their are not terrible design decisions, they are terrible player decisions like using a boss soul for exp, no sane player would do that other than to test it out. And many of the things like hitting people through bars is just false, player and enemies can both do it. The games aren't perfect but i think most of the bad decisions are in some of the level and encounter designs.

 

[jelly]

I wonder why nobody has tried to make a better Dark Souls like game other than From Software.

 

[Persona7]

Enemies are not affected by environmental hazards? In which Souls game does this happen?

 

[arevin01]

Most of what OP said is just minor annoyances, no game can be perfect.

 

[E-flux]

Enemies are not affected by environmental hazards? In which Souls game does this happen?

All i can think of are the Giants and Milfred in Blight town, but those make total sense why they wouldn't be affected by the swamp.

 

[NinjamicWZ]

It would be derided because The Witcher 3 is a game with a heavy focus on storytelling, narrative and characterisation. This is another example of prioritising during development. Notice that Blood and Wine will probably still have mediocre combat.

Exactly. Imagine if small bits of content like the NPC questlines for Anri and Horrace in DS3 got cut so that Firekeeper can do more "omg teh detailz" Nathan Drake-esque stuff in real time?

I'm sure we'd all love if From Software got hundreds of million dollars budgets to make everything as amazing as it can be without compromise, but that's not reality, and even if it was being handled at the highest of AAA production brackets it would likely just get focus tested to death and creatively directed by businessmen to make it into some unrecognizable Ubisoft goulash, in order to "guarantee" maximum return on investment and minimize all market risk.

 

[Glass Shark]

.

 

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

Basically what I am saying. Difficulty only changes the experience for those who choose it. Xcom is super hard on its hardest difficulty, and makes things feel very dire, but I would never force that upon anyone.

So, as you and other responded to my post, that's bloodborne baby.

Difficulty options change the experience for everyone. In order to start the game on normal or hard, you (almost always) have to ignore the lesser options first.

The reason people like that the Souls games have no external difficulty selector is because when you get to a new area or a new boss - you earned it, and you know everyone else who's played the game has shared in that experience. The existence of an easy mode trivializes that, and makes it so anyone can make it to the bottom of the Nexus or the Kiln of the First Flame without having to learn the games the way everyone has (that is to say, it cheapens the journey).

 

[Queen of Hunting]

The archers projectiles are the most bullshit thing in any souls game and goes against there design of game by saying if u died its cos u need to learn more

Im sorry i didn't know arrows are better than a homing missile from an raf fighter jet

 

[E-flux]

The archers projectiles are the most bullshit thing in any souls game and goes against there design of game by saying if u died its cos u need to learn more

Im sorry i didn't know arrows are better than a homing missile from an raf fighter jet

Arrows have been always super slow though and i honestly can't remember any encounters where the archers were a problem except the one in Anor londo.