RustyNails
Member
Kudos Cage. Excellent work on the game. Certainly made all the detractors go back to their caves.
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David Cage Q&A: Heavy Rain Sales & Critical Response Beyond His Wildest Dreams
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GhaleonQ
Member
andycapps said:
1. You were in the Heavy Rain topic. Most of the "during playthrough" posts were about the action sequences. A lot of the plot complaints were about the opening. The plot struggles to bridge the action sequences and the whodunit beats don't help you figure out the murderer. From all that, it's pretty clear that the focus is on the "couple"(?) action sequences.
2. It's either a crutch or it isn't, and that applies uniformly. You're playing a game about A SERIAL KILLER that shoehorns in (and imagine if another piece of entertainment you paid for did this) all of the disparate violent or sexual sequences that I don't want to spoiler tag that it does. It's absurd. Since there are no themes, those are the visceral hooks that keep the player excited when the plot's not moving. Your heart wouldn't race if your analog spinning was about winning the big soccer match. Body count's a fine comparison, but let's have a fairer comparison. Would you agree that survival horror and graphic adventure games are the fairest? So, you probably spend more time in death-defying (from a real-life point-of-view, not whether the game allows you to die) sequences in Silent Hill and certainly Resident Evil. Haunting Ground, Rule Of Rose, and Fatal Frame are much closer, though. Graphic adventures? I'm certain that the Gabriel Knight games have a "better" (from Cage's point-of-view) character development-to-violence ratio. So, either he's a hypocrite or he's ignorant of his failure to break new ground.
"DC: It's a little bit immoral, but it asks a very interesting question to the player. This scene was all about -- can we make killing someone in a video game something significant? Because in most games, killing people is what you do, so you don't care and you shoot zillions of people and you don't give a shit. Here, what I wanted to do was say, "Look, you just need to press this trigger, you kill this man and you get a reward. Do it." And we realized about 80 percent of people don't shoot, just because it's about role play. They feel they are Ethan, and they believe Ethan would not kill. And that's really interesting, because it's so easy and it's a part of saying, "This is not a video game." It's suspension of disbelief at some point and you forget that this is about a video game. And you don't kill anybody. Come on, it's just a bunch of pixels in a program. So you can shoot and get your reward and move on."
This would make sense if he didn't write a game where you were constantly imperiled and if the player actually had gameplay consequences to impose genuine emotional "significance" instead of debating whether to shoot the motion-captured digital thing.
crazygambit said:
I guess I didn't make it clear to andy and you. I wasn't comparing violent sequences. I was pointing out that it isn't a theme, it's a plot point. It's a plot point that's been used since the 1st damsel in distress. It's not a theme if the plot point remains unexamined. "Doing progressively crazier stuff," is not a suitable examination, unless you're going to argue that that Pierre Morel Taken movie is really thoughtful.
BaronLundi said:
No? That's a plot point.
I mean, it's not hard to do. I have trouble thinking of noir names, but
Oldboy
BaronLundi said:
I wrote a big long thing about Moon: Remix RPG Adventure. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=376513 The rest of Love-De-Lic's/Skip's/Vanpool's/Punchline's games do the same.
I don't think The Last Express developed its themes very well, but it uses allegorical characters as a representation of European nation-states and the train and its trip as a metaphor for Europe. I don't want to spoil the plot, but it tells a pretty good story quite well in a way that's thematically coherent, if not excellently (a lot of people would say differently).
Ico develops its character study impressionistically. I prefer theme-based games, but Ico uses its gameplay to tell us about its characters. The handhold mechanic and puzzle design reinforce through gameplay how philia should make someone feel. We, in turn, project those feelings onto the player-character and Ico.
Final Fantasy IX is a big commercial game about video games. The game-within-a-game discusses human existence and (in a basic way, admittedly) existential questions about memory, time, and identity. The game itself applies those same questions to the Final Fantasy series' history and video games generally.
Those are some.
BaronLundi said:
Sex scene? Shower scene length? The ripoff of a successful awful movie franchise scene? Really?
cornerman said:
David Cage's past post-failure bitterness and statements say otherwise. I would agree with you in most cases.
I really liked the game but haven't given it any further thought. I've only had one playthrough too. Time to revisit (backlog permitting).
It made me realise what a goody goody I am too. I refuse to do anything "bad" in a game. Weird.
Anyway, glad it's done so well. Certainly exceeded expectations.
It made me realise what a goody goody I am too. I refuse to do anything "bad" in a game. Weird.
Anyway, glad it's done so well. Certainly exceeded expectations.
I have not played it yet, but I went to dinner with a couple of friends who dont have PS3s and don't generally game they both asked me about it. Independently, one brought it up then the other agreed.
They expected me to have it already. Apparently they read about it and were excited and intrigued. So the word of mouth is pretty good, and there is definitely buzz out there.
One offered to buy it if I let him come over and play. I said sure, and the other said he'll come over too and bring beers. So this might turn out pretty well.:lol
They expected me to have it already. Apparently they read about it and were excited and intrigued. So the word of mouth is pretty good, and there is definitely buzz out there.
One offered to buy it if I let him come over and play. I said sure, and the other said he'll come over too and bring beers. So this might turn out pretty well.:lol
RustyNails
Member
Its true. I played it really good as well and I was literally screaming during Dr Death's sequence. I got the perfect endingslider said:
RustyNails said:Its true. I played it really good as well and I was literally screaming during Dr Death's sequence. I got the perfect ending
Perfect ending? I'm afraid, despite my boy-scout intentions, things went a bit awry.
Norman let the prostitute (forgotten her name!) die in the car in the water... I wasn't sure what the options meant and I honestly thought I was going to save her. Instead the fat bastard swam to safety and left her tied up in the car... I was overcome with guilt. Sort of.
Shake Appeal
Member
He's on a very different list for me.Prine said:
GhaleonQ said:
Yeah, I was in the topic. I don't keep up with it as much as some on here too, but I enjoyed Heavy Rain quite a bit. Obviously it's not for everyone. And yeah, there's the points of action which is where your characters are actually in peril and where something bad can actually happen to them. But the parts that seem to take up even more time are those parts where you're trying to find clues as to who the Origami Killer is or building up that relationship between Ethan and Madison or Ethan and his son (whether those parts are misleading or not is another story).
GhaleonQ said:
Well, it's a thriller.. so it's got to have some parts that create tension. Like you said, he's not going to build tension by you playing a soccer game or just playing through life. Otherwise it'd be the Sims. So he has a story about the Origami Killer that he's trying to tell and yeah, he's trying to mislead you during the story because he doesn't want you to figure out who the killer is in the first 10 minutes and the rest of the time you're just trying to find him. I'm sure that if he had a linear storyline where there was only one possible outcome and where major characters couldn't die off that he wouldn't have as many plotholes, but for me, that didn't affect my enjoyment of the game. Obviously, he's not going to win any Oscars for his script for this game, but in the realm of videogames, I do think that it moves it closer to being what can be considered as "art" as Ebert so famously said they can't be. And really, any work that someone makes can be considered art in my opinion, but Ebert's point was that it's not on the same level as Hollywood movies or novels. And in most cases, he's right. Videogame scripts and dialogue are almost universably ridiculous and we tolerate them if the gameplay is good. We don't expect them normally to rival top notch movies. Hopefully soon we can be having actual good writers be involved through the game development process so that we can get to the point of expecting good writing as well.
So, I'm not saying it's a perfect game or that the themes are adult, but that I'm saying that it seemed less adolescent than most games out there and that it was trying to do something different where your choices do have an effect on how your experience with the game plays out. There's no redo button, no resume last checkpoint.
GhaleonQ said:
Well, for me some of those decisions were hard to make and I did feel some emotions after I made them, or after I made the wrong decision in one case.
GhaleonQ said:
Yeah, and like I said, the term that Cage should have probably used was adult "situations." Situations that are designed for adults, not for kids or adolescents.
Well definitely. That's a great movie. That movie also has a defined beginning, middle, and definitely, an end. The writer didn't have to anticipate that the viewers would want the main protagonist to behave differently or make different decisions. It's not interactive. So yeah, when you're designing a story where there are many different outcomes and things that can happen in the middle, I'm sure there's going to be some plot holes.
Pristine_Condition
Member
Dabanton said:
What about PARENTHOOD? Separation from one's spouse, ect?
People saying Heavy Rain doesn't deal in mature themes have either not played Heavy Rain, or they don't know what mature themes are...
I had fun playing Heavy Rain and would probably play through it a second time if it was shorter just to see how events would play out if I did things differently.
But I'd certainly appreciate more games that played like an interactive narrative with points where characters sort of 'chose their own adventure.'
But I'd certainly appreciate more games that played like an interactive narrative with points where characters sort of 'chose their own adventure.'
I had a lot of problems overlooking the massive plot holes, even though I've played plenty of other games with similar plot weaknesses that didn't bug me at all.
I was also not thrilled with a lot of the QTEs.
That being said I think HR is groundbreaking game that deserves all of the praise. And I hope this type of game is further explored and refined.
tl;dr Great work, David Cage and co.
I was also not thrilled with a lot of the QTEs.
That being said I think HR is groundbreaking game that deserves all of the praise. And I hope this type of game is further explored and refined.
tl;dr Great work, David Cage and co.
Yes. I really wish people would stop bashing it without playing it. I understand why people dislike the idea of it. However, it's only when you play it that you understand the emotional connection the game creates with you. Amazing experience going through a game knowing that your actions could down the line cause a "fail state" in the ending or that screwing up could end up with your character never finishing the story.
BaronLundi
Member
GhaleonQ said:
Well, let's say this one is a personal favorite and that if heavy rain was narratively as well constructed, directed, acted and shot while remaining a game that would make it a palme d'or as well as a GOTY contender. That would be a first for sure. The fact that Heavy Rain does not live up to the brilliance of this particular movie does not make it a bad game or story, thank god !
GhaleonQ said:
You keep bringing up good reference here and that makes me even more puzzled as to your reasons for disliking HR so much (emphasis on "so much").
I enjoyed those 2 games, for different reasons and your Ico description is spot on. And still I enjoyed Heavy Rain's gameplay (yes) and way of unfolding it's (mature
story as well. What gives...Branduil said:
A story surely does not need a MacGuffin to be told. Or maybe I missed your point. Care to elaborate ?
The game had one of the best SCEE commercials of this generation and it also had great print ads over two months (at least in Edge).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3WeMKvWD0A
This may be one of the few cases where European marketing actually outdid SCEA this generation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3WeMKvWD0A
This may be one of the few cases where European marketing actually outdid SCEA this generation.
Vlodril
Member
I don't think that anyone is saying that the its the game of the forever or that is oscar quality (although that is an oxymoron ). But the game does manages to make connections between the player and the characters. For me it was
.
Would it be so bad to apart from the gazillion shooters to have something else? Why do people feel threatened by the idea of games like this. I say lets see a revival of the adventure genre with new type of gameplay and more atmosphere due to the graphical fidelity of our days. (I am waiting for Gabriel Knight, Blade Runner and much more).
the scene where he cuts the finger which i found horrendous and how it changed from the starting chapter where he stood tall and the world was sunny to him being sort of hunched like life was beating him down , the atmosphere being grey and even the evenings with his surviving son. I found it very sad and loved the character right there.
Would it be so bad to apart from the gazillion shooters to have something else? Why do people feel threatened by the idea of games like this. I say lets see a revival of the adventure genre with new type of gameplay and more atmosphere due to the graphical fidelity of our days. (I am waiting for Gabriel Knight, Blade Runner and much more).
GhaleonQ
Member
BaronLundi said:
I'll respond later, but he said that the blackout origami thing was a MacGuffin in a recent Joystiq interview. He meant "red herring," but it's also not a red herring because it's not explained or easily explainable.
jluedtke said:
Eh, I'm sure you're fascinating in real life, but that didn't do it for me. Use different insults instead of synonyms. I'm bet you're familiar with "douche."
http://www.cychron.com/2.9507/features/hitchcock-1.2031252Branduil said:
I think anyone who's upset with David Cage's storytelling owes it to themselves to read this critical appraisal of "arrogant hack" Alfred Hitchcock, and see how much you find yourself agreeing with it -- especially on the subject of the "icebox" moment. Then...
(☐) Continue to complain about the video game's plot
(Δ
Openly appreciate the experience of the game(O) Troll me
(X) Jason!
GhaleonQ said:
Considering that within the game the only time Ethan ended up with an origami in his hand is that night after the murder of the 8th victim, it's not that hard to come up with an explanation. If Ethan gets an origami after every victim was murdered then one might have difficulty writing out an explanation for it. But he only got it once. As for the blackout, once again, despite what people assume, he does not always find himself in Carnaby Street. That only happened twice within the game. Moreover, his blackout does not always coincide with the murder/kidnapping of the kids.
HK-47 said:
Oh really? Apart from that, what other dumb parenting example you've seen from this game? And that balloon scene was an accident. Some kids are known to run around without paying much attention to their surrounding around that age.
Replicant said:
No parent stands around like dumbass like that while his beyond stupid child wanders off. Kids wander off because their parent ARENT paying attention to them. Realistically, he'd grab the kid and then go back to the clown. Clown can fucking wait for his money. Hell I dont know why they didnt do it where you get distracted naturally and the kid wanders off. Then would be more of a mistake rather than plot convience. But they had to make it so goddamn obvious.
Metalmurphy
Member
"This is gonna have terrible reviews"
...
"This is gonna bomb so hard in sales"
...
"It'll drop off quickly"
...
"Yeah, well... It's still a turd!"
...
"This is gonna bomb so hard in sales"
...
"It'll drop off quickly"
...
"Yeah, well... It's still a turd!"
ZombieSupaStar
Member
yeah thats great n all dave, NOW GET TO MAKING OMICRON 2!
Callibretto
Member
shintoki said:
story is not the same as storytelling.
the main story / plot may not be perfect. you can find plot holes in it. but the individual storytelling in each chapter is brilliant. the storytelling play with your mind. like the
panic attack where everyone just stop moving and they all fall down like puppet if you touch them, or when you're upside down inside a car during 1st trial, all qtes are upside down as well. Norman shooting the religious guy because he suddenly moves, cutting off finger thing, also the last trial about drinking poison is also pretty nerve wracking. I spent quite some time thinking what to do and in the end just go for it and drink the poison, only to get 1 letter for my hint. I felt so angry and cheated.
HK-47 said:
You'd be surprised at how many parents sometimes do this. They do not expect their kids to wander around aimlessly without them. Why do you think there are public announcement service in many malls? Most of which are often used to announce "So and so parent, your child has been found here". Was Ethan careless at that point? Yes, but at the same time it's an honest mistake. He was trying to pay for the balloon while Jason wandered off elsewhere.
And you still haven't answered my question: what other example of bad parenting you found in this game that prompt you to say "Bad parenting ever"?
Metalmurphy said:
:lol :lol :lol
IKR? It must be frustrating for the haters to have reality spitting them in the face over and over again.
I still think about Heavy Rain from time to time. Its gripping scenes and soundtrack and way of drip-feeding-me the story is my favorite sort of setpiece for a game. I still think about my decisions and my characters.
I'm glad your game did so well, Cage. Hopefully you learn from this experience and continue to make gripping games.
I'm glad your game did so well, Cage. Hopefully you learn from this experience and continue to make gripping games.
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
Shake Appeal said:
I think we're in agreement. When are you back on the games Yoss?
Insane Metal
Gold Member
Just beat the game, one of the best gaming experiences I've ever had. Such a fulfilling experience
This is the ending I got:
is that good?
This is the ending I got:
4 character alive, killer dead, kid alive, etc
is that good?
Sony need to buy Quantic Dream or at least throw buckets full of money at them, because they are absolute geniuses over there. Particularly David Cage. He's what Peter Molyneux wishes he was. And heady bull-shit. David Cage has a magnificent (and realistic) vision of the future of videogames & motion controls, and best of all, he executes really well. Powerful combination they got there.
LordPhoque
Banned
00011000 said:
Joke post ? At least Molyneux did some classic stuff back in the days (Populous, Black & White). Even the Fable series is decent. David Cage's career is basically 1 decent game and 2 mediocre ones. Plus the guy said some stupid shit in the french press, like the reviews who gave his game less than 9/10 or 19/20 were "written by 14 years old kids", when they were actually the best written reviews.
And all his talk about "games with explosions", it's just silly. I'm going to play GOW3 right now, "killing trolls with my sword", but I prefer that to perform a giant QTE to beat a game with a shitty plot and writing.
indigo-cyclops
Member
I'd like to say that the "blackout origami" bit that Cage described (which I think he meant the actual origami figure) as a MacGuffin could be considered legitimate because it is a major plot device that, by the end of the game, has little to no relevance to the climax. Or am I just wrong in understanding the importance of this at the beginning of the game?
Son of Godzilla
Banned
...LordPhoque said:
Jive Turkey
Unconfirmed Member
Well to be fair Omikron was a game. It was a mess but no more than Indigo Prophecy or Heavy Rain...And it had David Bowie!AniHawk said:
LordPhoque said:
Not joke.
I loved everything about Heavy Rain. And I'm playing GoW3 now as well. Loving that too. But, the QTEs feel a bit disconnected now since I've played HR. GoW has always felt like that though, so I dunno. Again, LOVING GoW3.
Heavy Rain was just something different. And not for the sake of being different. I really feel as though it is a progression in the medium. The writing may be poor in places, as is the plot.(All subjective) But there is HUGE potential for this format of gaming and I'm so excited by it.
The reason I think Sony should buy QD is because their sensibilities seem to match up really well. I've always seen the PS3 as being the console for the "cinematic gaming experience" and a slightly more discerning, and mature demographic than that of the 360.
I also don't think their track record should come into it. Look at Media Molecule... LBP was the company's first game. There's obvious pedigree in the execution of Heavy Rain and there is obvious progression in confidence and skill with each subsequent game. Omikron->Fahrenheit->HR.
PS: Fuck Peter Molyneux.