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[Foxtastical]

I don't get the love for Heavy Rain.

I finally played it this past weekend. I thought it was an absolute joke in regards to characterization and plot. More red herrings please?

So how does a kid die from having a car slowly rammed into the back of his father anyway?

This bothered the fuck out of me. In the game's attempt to depict reality, the game is full of uncanny valley moments. Not just in regards to visuals, but in how people act, talk and show emotion.

 

[Truant]

Stop being a patronising and condescending twat. Many people loved the game, including me. Including much of the press. You don't always have to mock someone who has a dissenting opinion to yours. It's not "bad taste" just because it's not to your tastes. Lose the superiority complex already. Just appreciate that different people have different tastes and be done with it.

With any other game, film, book, or band I would. But not with this game. Not with Heavy Rain. It's just too awful.

 

[Ellis Kim]

With any other game, film, book, or band I would. But not with this game. Not with Heavy Rain. It's just too awful.

And that's you're problem.

Its almost as if people don't know what "suspension of disbelief" even means anymore.

 

[nib95]

With any other game, film, book, or band I would. But not with this game. Not with Heavy Rain. It's just too awful.

Lol, stop acting like this tact by you is unique to HR. I've seen you do it arguing other games too. Your best method of argument tends to just be mocking, criticising or downplaying the opinions of others who disagree. It's like the Tea Party tact of debating games or something. Can't remember specifically, but I think it was you who did a similar thing with Uncharted?

Apologies if I'm getting you mixed up with someone else, but the name and Avatar certainly ring true.

 

[Peff]

And that's you're problem.

Its almost as if people don't know what "suspension of disbelief" even means anymore.

More like "complete and utter destruction of disbelief".

 

[Sadist]

Yeah no David.

 

[daviyoung]

nm

 

[Foxtastical]

Heavy Rain was terrible. It failed on just about every front -- and it told its story so poorly that you either have to assume that Cage has mental problems or that he simply holds nothing but contempt for his audience. Considering how similarly awful Indigo Prophecy was, I'm not sure which.

The fact that so many heap praise upon the game can only be seen as a massive leap backward for interactive storytelling. Many other games tell better stories in a better way and are better games as well, but Heavy Rain gets the attention due to its visuals, production values, and partly for its exclusivity.

People like to think that Heavy Rain, as a "cinematic" game, is somehow a legitimization of games, that it has some artistic merit. Oh, it's so movie-like! Movies are art! I feel that, since I am watching a game that poorly apes some cinematic conventions, that I am now playing art! Whee. For how ridiculously bad HR is, that is perhaps the most annoying thing about it all.

At least the music was decent, I guess.

Great post that sums up my similar feelings on the matter.

 

[crowphoenix]

Man, no. No, you don't. Heavy Rain was one of the worst stories I've ever seen. The characters, the presentation, the writing: all of it was absolutely awful.

 

[Ellis Kim]

More like "complete and utter destruction of disbelief".

You say that like you've never played a video game before.

I also want to go on record and bet that more than half of the people falling into this thread's trap and making one-off hate posts didn't even read the damn quote that the OP so obviously avoided quoting in the OP for his own desire to start a shit-heaping thread.

 

[Truant]

Not sure if that was me, could be.

Look, it's not like I walked into the HR experience with a negative mindset. I bought the damn thing, played through all of it. My reactions are based on, and exclusively so, the game itself. I can't help that I was expecting a deeper and better written game, when it prides itself on being a mature story-based experience.

Like I said, I appreciate the stuff Quantic Dream tried to do. I'm a big fan of Omikron, and I loved the first half of Fahrenheit.

 

[rvy]

He'd make great friends with Hayashi.

 

[Ellis Kim]

Not sure if that was me, could be.

Look, it's not like I walked into the HR experience with a negative mindset. I bought the damn thing, played through all of it. My reactions are based on, and exclusively so, the game itself. I can't help that I was expecting a deeper and better written game, when it prides itself on being a mature story-based experience.

Like I said, I appreciate the stuff Quantic Dream tried to do. I'm a big fan of Omikron, and I loved the first half of Fahrenheit.

Frankly, I feel that Heavy Rain appeals much more to the emotional side of its storytelling than any sort of logic. If that's what bugs you, then oh well. But I do suggest that it'd be a good idea to learn to let go of hating something when there's a distinct group of people who love the thing you hate.

 

[nib95]

More like "complete and utter destruction of disbelief".

To be honest, there needs to be some level of "suspension of disbelief" with all video games, simply because technology is not advanced enough. Just take for example, based on your avatar, this scene from Mass Effect 2. because of the janky animations and not so realistic facial mapping (similar problem with HR), you could also be completely thrown off. Or just take it as it is within the confine of video games. Admittedly, the VA is really good in ME2, though I've always thought Shepard himself sounded like an automated robot lacking in personality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QUlULSV8zU&feature=fvst

On a side note, I am extremely excited to see what LA Noire brings to the table. The facial scanning tech looks absolutely brilliant!

 

[Acquiescence]

It's a bold statement for Cage to make, but honestly - how many developers are really doing what Quantic Dream are doing right now? I remember back in May of last year when Alan Wake came out, a release date that was still hot on the heels of Heavy Rain. Remedy's game was frequently garnering comparisons with Heavy Rain, for little conceivable reason other than both games had a focus on narrative. But the fact that Alan Wake was the best that the press/gamers could offer as a contender to Heavy Rain speaks volumes I think.

I honestly don't think Cage is too far off the mark there. Fair play to him. Heavy Rain was an astonishing achievement, practically did create its own genre and the only game around that's like it is QD's previous effort Fahrenheit. They own the genre until someone else comes along who has the balls to make a game similar to Heavy Rain and can surpass it.

 

[Ellis Kim]

To be honest, there needs to be some level of "suspension of disbelief" with all video games, simply because technology is not advanced enough. Just take for example, based on your avatar, this scene from Mass Effect 2. because of the janky animations and not so realistic facial mapping (similar problem with HR), you could also be completely thrown off. Or just take it as it is within the confine of video games. Admittedly, the VA is really good in ME2, though I've always thought Shepard himself sounded like an automated robot lacking in personality.

And that's why I roll with a Femshep

It's a bold statement for Cage to make, but honestly - how many developers are really doing what Quantic Dream are doing right now? I remember back in May of last year when Alan Wake came out, a release date that was still hot on the heels of Heavy Rain. Remedy's game was frequently garnering comparisons with Heavy Rain, for little conceivable reason other than both games had a focus on narrative. But the fact that Alan Wake was the best that the press/gamers could offer as a contender to Heavy Rain speaks volumes I think.

I honestly don't think Cage is too far off the mark there. Fair play to him. Heavy Rain was an astonishing achievement, practically did create its own genre and the only game around that's like it is QD's previous effort Fahrenheit. They own the genre until someone else comes along who has the balls to make a game similar to Heavy Rain and can surpass it.

While not exact, I'm willing to say that LA Noire is kinda in the same vein, just more traditional in its use of user interface than Quantic Dream's approach.

 

[Renewman]

This thread is hilarious. Once again the denizens of GAF believe that the small minority of vocal posters here are better than everyone else through sheer elitism. Never change GAF. In any case, despite the whole "kid dying from being protected bit," I felt the game was pretty damn good. The voice acting for Ethan was a little off but the game is nowhere as bad as most of you people are making it seem. Sometimes I think you guys like to hate on games just to hate. You're like an even more elitist version of /v/ on 4chan. That's pretty shitty.

 

[SovanJedi]

I liked the demo, but everything I've seen or read on the game points to an awful, awful story.

Perhaps if this type of interactivity was applied to a game which didn't have a laughable, hokey plot and stiff animation I would be happy with that... but as it stands, this guy doesn't own anything of the sort. He's getting rather big for his booties.

 

[daviyoung]

practically did create its own genre

No. One game does not a genre make.

 

[Peff]

You say that like you've never played a video game before.

I also want to go on record and bet that more than half of the people falling into this thread's trap and making one-off hate posts didn't even read the damn quote that the OP so obviously avoided quoting in the OP for his own desire to start a shit-heaping thread.

You say that like other video games have an equal focus on a terrible story.

To be honest, there needs to be some level of "suspension of disbelief" with all video games, simply because technology is not advanced enough.

It has nothing to do with technology.

 

[Ellis Kim]

This thread is hilarious. Once again the denizens of GAF believe that the small minority of vocal posters here are better than everyone else through sheer elitism. Never change GAF. In any case, despite the whole "kid dying from being protected bit," I felt the game was pretty damn good. The voice acting for Ethan was a little off but the game is nowhere as bad as most of you people are making it seem. Sometimes I think you guys like to hate on games just to hate. You're like an even more elitist version of /v/ on 4chan. That's pretty shitty.

This is GAF, yo.

Anyways, I'm out (for now).

You say that like other video games have an equal focus on a terrible story.

lol subjective verb

 

[Dabanton]

And that's you're problem.

Its almost as if people don't know what "suspension of disbelief" even means anymore.

There is "suspension of disbelief" which is something like in Uncharted 2 where every time Drake looks like he'll fall to his death another character catches him at the last minute. And then there is "SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF" and that's what Heavy Rain dealt in.

The game lets you hear what your playable characters are thinking. Yet one particular storyline then makes no sense at all and is in fact a massive crock as QD have basically gone back on the rules that their own game had created. If i'm a character why would i not be thinking of certain important story details? Don't know if you can, but if i'm thinking about something it's hard to push it out of my head. And you would think if i knew that. I would certainly be thinking about it quite a lot... So what QD did is engage in very bad storyteling. Bordering on fraudulent.

I'm not even going to go into another character and his convenient blackouts.

HR turns on such an outrageous 'twist' that it's hard to believe Cage dared put it in the game without removing other elements.

 

[Typographenia]

I wouldn't go so far as to say Cage "owns" the genre, but it was definitely a step in the right direction after Fahrenheit/Indigo Prophecy.


I really enjoyed Heavy Rain, and I know there are some major problems with it. However, the fact that this game exists amongst the throngs of COD type games is really refreshing.
If Cage and Quantic Dream continue to hone their approach to this type of game I think there is some real potential for what they're doing. Will they ever be the best? Who knows, I wouldn't mind it happening.

The main things I think they need is Cage to be willing to allow someone else to write, co-write, or be more critical in editing with him next time. He tried too hard for a shyamalan surprise ending that it fell kind of flat.

I definitely want more games in this vein, and whether or not it's Quantic that brings it to us doesn't bother me. I think the sales help prove that there is a willing audience, and we're all waiting for it to happen.



Also, if he were to continue making games, and they all became horrible, I would be perfectly fine with it as long as we got more soundtracks as good as Heavy Rain's.

 

[nib95]

You say that like other video games have an equal focus on a terrible story.

It has nothing to do with technology.

Of what I've read from those posts, some seem like valid complaints or holes and others just seem extremely nit picky or loose. Almost like a person was playing the game just to try and find faults in it. The fact that it's the same person making most of the posts sort of solidifies that possibility. I certainly didn't read in to half those things whilst playing it, just like I don't in most games. I.e, arguments similar to why Nathan Drake is a rubbish character because he kills thousands of people and is a socipath and silly things like that.

 

[Ellis Kim]

There is "suspension of disbelief" which is something like in Uncharted 2 where every time Drake looks like he'll fall to his death another character catches him at the last minute. And then there is "SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF" and that's what Heavy Rain dealt in.

Yep, and that's what any self-respecting gamer roles with. Caps, bolds, however you want to emphasize it: suspension of disbelief, and a willingness to give a game a chance to take your hand and walk you down its road, no matter the gutters, road bumps, pot holes, or sneering looks from onlookers.

I also think LA Noire will be far more sucessful. Rockstar\Team Bondi has a great cast and I assume to be a good script especially since it's based off of real cases. I prefer LA Noire's approach. I do acknoledge that LA Noire might not have the multiple endings and "you can complete the game even if characters die" thing. However, I think it will be way superior in storytelling.

Bolded wouldn't be the reason why it'd be a good script.

Spoiler

Seriously, though, I'm out (for now).

 

[thehillissilent]

And that's why I roll with a Femshep


While not exact, I'm willing to say that LA Noire is kinda in the same vein, just more traditional in its use of user interface than Quantic Dream's approach.

I also think LA Noire will be far more sucessful. Rockstar\Team Bondi has a great cast and I assume to be a good script especially since it's based off of real cases. I prefer LA Noire's approach. I do acknoledge that LA Noire might not have the multiple endings and "you can complete the game even if characters die" thing. However, I think it will be way superior in storytelling.

 

[shintoki]

More like "complete and utter destruction of disbelief".

When I hear suspension of belief, it's feels similar to "Just turn off your brain at the door", or "Well, there are worse movies". It's an excuse used to say it's bad, but it's okay!

 

[flyover]

If Cage and Quantic Dream continue to hone their approach to this type of game I think there is some real potential for what they're doing. Will they ever be the best? Who knows, I wouldn't mind it happening.

The main things I think they need is Cage to be willing to allow someone else to write, co-write, or be more critical in editing with him next time. He tried too hard for a shyamalan surprise ending that it fell kind of flat.

Couldn't agree more. I didn't think Heavy Rain was so great, but it's important that people keep trying to push what games can be -- and can be about. So, I'm glad I bought it.

If Cage can expand what kind of games become commercially viable, then more (and better) games of that type will be made by others in the future. So more power to him.

As far as his own games, he's shown that he's good at getting his vision executed, which is great. I just wish, as you said, that he'd remove himself somewhat from the game design/writing equation. I don't know if his ego will allow it, but he's a solo artist who needs to be part of a band.

 

[Foxtastical]

Of what I've read from those posts, some seem like valid complaints or holes and others just seem extremely nit picky or loose. Almost like a person was playing the game just to try and find faults in it. The fact that it's the same person making most of the posts sort of solidifies that possibility. I certainly didn't read in to half those things whilst playing it, just like I don't in most games. I.e, arguments similar to why Nathan Drake is a rubbish character because he kills thousands of people and is a socipath and silly things like that.

Those posts are incredibly telling. It's not nitpicking when every discourse behind Heavy Rain is about how brilliant of a narrative experience it is. When that expectation is set, I certainly don't think we should be content with what was delivered.

And yeah, this thread has convinced me to write that graduate paper on Madison's inclusion being primarily used as a tool to make the player feel vulnerable in scenarios (and other gendered dimensions of the game).

 

[hosannainexcelsis]

Yep, and that's what any self-respecting gamer roles with. Caps, bolds, however you want to emphasize it: suspension of disbelief, and a willingness to give a game a chance to take your hand and walk you down its road, no matter the gutters, road bumps, pot holes, or sneering looks from onlookers.

Seriously, I'm out.

Any story, whether in a game or otherwise, has to earn my suspension of disbelief by creating an internally coherent world which I can accept on its own terms. Heavy Rain does not do that. It's supposedly set in the real world, and while I can suspend my disbelief for something like the ARI system, handwaved as near-future tech, it gives me no reason to do so for the nonsensical actions and thoughts of the characters.

It's not like I hate Heavy Rain. I like some of the concepts behind it, some of the setpieces were emotionally effective, and overall I do not regret playing it. But none of that excuses a messy plot, and to hold it up as the king of interactive story-telling is just silly.

 

[Alexios]

Eh, it' up to the game to cause this suspension of disbelief (edit: beaten by above), not the gamer to accept any crap thrown his way for its sake... It's not about having the most technically accomplished graphics or the best voice acting or whatever else, these just stick out like a sore thumb when the rest of the game, the whole, the sum of its parts, fail to cause this suspension of disbelief. Imo, Shenmue 1 is still way more immersing than what I played of Heavy Rain. Oh, and it has actual gameplay too. That doesn't mean it's flawless or anything like that. Anyone can point out obvious flaws like the voice acting and animations, or even the combat system. Suspension of disblief can't be forced on anybody, it will come naturally or it won't come at all. That's what I think at least, I never succeeded in forcing myself.

 

[Adam Blade]

Granted, I've never even played Heavy Rain, but does nib95's fulsome praise for it mean that there are enough brown and black people in it?

Also, has David Cage never heard of ADVs?

 

[InsaneLuchador]

by the statement i thought he was with telltale.

 

[Quadrangulum]

I don't think this "genre" has enough important or noteworthy gameplay features to distinguish itself from other excellent storytelling games quite a few of which were fantastic releases this generation. I suppose the advocates are extolling the graphical leap? If that's the case, I'm skeptical since immersion can and should be accomplished instead through excellent dialog, writing, characters, story etc.

The visuals can be a nice bonus but in the end, the strength of the narrative is the only leg these kinds of games should be allowed to rely on. Because of this, I find it difficult to see the reason for a different category that's actually meaningful and I fail to understand the fuss over the game since by even the most optimistic reckoning, Heavy Rain's story just doesn't stand out.

 

[nib95]

Those posts are incredibly telling. It's not nitpicking when every discourse behind Heavy Rain is about how brilliant of a narrative experience it is. When that expectation is set, I certainly don't think we should be content with what was delivered.

I don't think that is entirely it. I never thought Heavy rain excelled so much specifically because of it's narrative, which lets face it, is a relatively standard murder mystery affair. I thought what made the difference was in it's implementation, atmosphere and pacing. There's less emphasis on action, more emphasis on the characters, the world in which they exist, emotional connections, developments and just general detailing lacking in other games. A lot of the mundane boring stuff people are complaining about are things that make HR stand out for me personally (I made a post just yesterday about how I appreciated a similar take on tasks and daily life in Mafia II). I also like the sequence of events in which everything takes place, it's an almost 24 esque development that see's you through chronologically beginning to end with no jarring deviations or dramatic time spans like most other similar titles.

 

[Mesijs]

Silent Hill: Shattered Memories says no.

If you want to experience a brilliant narrative experience, play this game.

 

[The Technomancer]

http://media.gamer.nl/site/dump/20100323002438-SM2.jpg[G]

Silent Hill: Shattered Memories says no.

If you want to experience a brilliant narrative experience, play this game.[/QUOTE]
Eh, as much as I love SM the main experience had some flaws as well. But I would [i]much[/i] rather future video game narrative experiences take their cues from SM. That game did a lot right.

 

[Foxtastical]

I don't think that is entirely it. I never thought Heavy rain excelled so much specifically because of it's narrative, which lets face it, is a relatively standard murder mystery affair. I thought what made the difference was in it's implementation, atmosphere and pacing. There's less emphasis on action, more emphasis on the characters, the world in which they exist, emotional connections, developments and just general detailing lacking in other games. A lot of the mundane boring stuff people are complaining about are things that make HR stand out for me personally (I made a post just yesterday about how I appreciated a similar take on tasks and daily life in Mafia II). I also like the sequence of events in which everything takes place, it's an almost 24 esque development that see's you through chronologically beginning to end with no jarring deviations or dramatic time spans like most other similar titles.

I like Heavy Ran's attempt at creating gameplay out of something that doesn't necessarily involve shooting, killing, fighting, etc. That's cool, I want more of that.

Really, http://www.gamecritics.com/daniel-weissenberger/heavy-rain-to-the-bitter-end-part-4, this article nails down a lot of why Heavy Rain's narrative trips and falls all over itself.

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

http://media.gamer.nl/site/dump/20100323002438-SM2.jpg

Silent Hill: Shattered Memories says no.

If you want to experience a brilliant narrative experience, play this game.

Is it good on PS2? That's the only version I can play right now.

 

[oracrest]

I really loved Heavy Rain.

The thing I enjoy about it most was that it told a story about everyday people. In that respect, I find it is a thematic area that is rarely explored in games.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Reminder that when Heavy Rain started, one of the "big things" David Cave promised was no supernatural elements. He then proceeded to create a plotline that depended entirely upon a supernatural element, and only months before the game came out removed the related sequences entirely because somebody realized how dumb it was to put psychic powers in an otherwise "realistic" murder mystery. However, this totally broke the plot since one of the biggest mysteries in the game which drives a HUGE part of the plot, now has no possibly natural explanation whatsoever. Cage made no attempt to fix this, and when questioned about this after release, answered that "plot holes" were actually "MacGuffins," like the kind Alfred Hitchcock used! (In case it's not obvious, that's not what a MacGuffin is AT ALL) It was only months later when a Deleted Scenes video came out that the real reason was revealed.

Also included in that video was the revelation that segments establishing the female main character's backstory and profession, both of which are the entire foundation for her motivations and character, were cut out entirely. The reason for her insomnia (it was supposed to be related to her foreign coverage of wars) was never explained, yet the very first scene that the player sees her is a sequence in which she walks around in her underwear, gets naked, takes a piss, and then gets brutally held down and murdered by strong men in black masks... turns out to be a bad dream caused by her insomnia! Tee-hee! That's your introduction to her, and it's fitting, since she spends the entire game running away from men who want to rape and murder her.

 

[Abooie]

I really loved Heavy Rain.

The thing I enjoy about it most was that it told a story about everyday people. In that respect, I find it is a thematic area that is rarely explored in games.

Spoiler

]A serial killer who didn't know he was a serial killer and an agent with alien future tech and a serious drug problem are everyday people?

 

[Prince of Space]

I'm currently replaying Heavy Rain and, screw the haters, it's really good comedy.

Pretty much. I replayed the game a while back and let my roommates make all the choices, which led to much laughter.

David Cage is gaming's equivalent of Ed Wood, and Heavy Rain is his Bride of the Atom. I can't wait to see how laughably awful his next game will be.

 

[bill.cosby]

Yeah....

 

[Sotha Sil]

Heavy Rain was good at creating empathy (I really felt for the characters; foreign accents/uncanny valley didn't bother me), but clearly failed at storytelling (many plot points were so absurd they broke suspension of disbelief, and ultimately made no sense).

All in all, I still think it was both an intense, worthwile experience and an embarassing failure of a game.

So yeah, I guess I'll repeat what I said in countless HR threads: Mr Cage, please, please leave the writing to someone else.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

While Heavy Rain was an interesting experience to playthrough, it wasn't that great of a narrative.

999 on the other hand, THAT was rather innovative in how it pulls off it's storytelling when you get through all the endings.

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

Too bad that's one genre no one wants or cares about.

1.5 million people disagree with you.

 

[oracrest]

999 on the other hand, THAT was rather innovative in how it pulls off it's storytelling when you get through all the endings.

I'm looking forward to playing it. I picked it up on the Aksys benefit sale.

 

[bhlaab]

Very little was interactive about Heavy Rain

 

[Acquiescence]

1.5 million people disagree with you.

2 million now.