bigboss370
Member
does it really? do we have pic/vid comparisons?
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Dead or Alive 5 or Tekken Tag 2? ;_;
- Thread starter MrCookiepants
- Start date
does it really? do we have pic/vid comparisons?
GoofsterStud
Member
OMG, thanks for showing that. Now I'm going to get DOA for sure. Other than the flowing dress, DOA looks significantly better, and it looks like that flowing dress is the exception and not the norm. To be honest I'd prefer more fighting games that had people in cloths besides skin tight fabric. Give more character!
I'll probably buy both in the long run. >.> Now where is my VF6
I'm so confused why do the VF characters in DOA anime more fluidly? Yes, Akira is stiff by nature, but the animation looks more fluid when compared to the actual DOA characters to me >.>
Note: Maybe more natural is the world I'm looking for. >.> There is just something off aboutthe other characters animations compared to the two Virtua Fighter toons.
Fixed: There you got a comparison pic.
Another Edit:
To make things fair now DOA comparison.
GoofsterStud
Member
???
DOA 5 looks really stiff in the videos I just watched. >.>
Why did I think it looked better?
Ragingnight
Member
I'll be 100% surprise if DOA5 makes it to evo. Not because of the gamplay, but because as far as I remember it never did well number wise.
The tekken community is fucking huge.
The tekken community is fucking huge.
Wasn't there a tournament for DOA5 that got 124 players or something like that recently unless I saw that wrong and it had decent views on the streams?
LowParry
Member
That stream I saw was with Dr. Dogg and...some chick. lol - total views was probably around 600 - 800 tops. At least that's what I saw when I tuned in late.
scytheavatar
Member
It's a free pre-release tourney, so it's not a good indication of how popular the game will be competitively. The DOA games never got good numbers previously because of stupid DOACentral and their anti-offline scene nonsense. Now that DOACentral is dead and people have migrated to Freestepdodge which has a more sane community DOA5 has a much better chance of success.
The IPL one had decent views but dont remember the numbers. I think 1300-1500. Which for DOA was decent and those numbers might grow more.
There is still DOA World with their fan fictions...
Anyhow there will be soon some tournaments with DOA5 on the roster with $10 entry. We'll see how those ones do and hopefully it does decent numbers.
Ragingnight
Member
You're talking about one event at Summer Jam.
DOA2, 3, and 4 all had poor numbers unless somebody corrects me.
Honestly I don't see DOA5 being added to the EVO lineup if its still 6 games. If DOA5 doesn't get added to the EVO lineup you can consider DOA5's competitive community pretty much dead (at majors and etc, locals will always do their thing).
1) SF4
2) MVC3
3) TTT2
4) KOF
are pretty much guaranteed
5th will be P4A if the numbers stay strong. Its been doing well in the WC. Had over a hundred entrants at SJ. Not to mention a HUGE japan following.
6th game imo will be either MK9 or Injustice. Whichever their community (TYM) supports.
5th/6th are all subjected to change pending on what happens from now till January. I don't see P4A dying before Jan. Injustice on the other hand might not even come out by JAn and that will REALLY hurt. They could always buy their way in MLG though. That WB backing.
edit
Thinking on it I see the 6th spot as competition between DOA5, and injustice/MK9.
LowParry
Member
This is true. The commentary didn't help at all though. I'm curious to see if streams will pick up DOA5 and see if it picks up steam. I think WNF is picking TTT2 here soon.
GoofsterStud
Member
Fixed: There you got a comparison pic.
Is it strange if I prefer the 6 pic?
I prefer the art style, I like the fact that he doesn't look greased up in oil, and the hair doesn't looks as chunky (polygony to me).
Am I alone? I probably am.
scytheavatar
Member
EVO has no fixed number of games, if enough people play the game in majors and prove there's a scene for that game it WILL be supported by EVO. And KOF is not guaranteed to be in the lineup, its numbers seem to have dropped sharply recently.
Ragingnight
Member
KOF dying in numbers? Its pretty much the same as it always has been US wise. Also the international community is coming into play now. CafeID blew it up this year.
EVO has no fixed limit but they do have a time and space limit. Unless EVO is at a BIGGER venue with more time, I see no way more than 6 games can be up. 6 games this year was already a big strain on a lot of players and TOs.
edit
Also support doesn't guarantee as a main game. EVO supported Skullgirls, but it wasn't a main game.
Master Thespian
Member
I always love the DOA vs TEKKEN animation discussions. Both games have their strengths and their flaws:
Dead or Alive
+A higher standard of consistency that makes the overall package shine.
+The throws and counters are very good, although sometimes there isn't enough of a sense of weight. Add into that the characters have numerous throws and counters that involve the backgrounds makes this even more impressive.
+Their hit and supplemental reactions are the best in the business. Whether it's standing hits, stuns, juggles, bounds, hits to a grounded opponent (which looks MILES ahead of anything anyone else has), laying prone, tech-rolling, or getting up off the ground, DOA is in class of it's own.
+Due to the fact that you don't need cancelling to move about *moderately well*, movement looks infinitely better (although the new universal sidestep's animation is shockingly lazy from Team Ninja).
-Strike animations are largely awkward (except for Akira, Sarah, Rig and probably Mila) because they not only lack proper acceleration, deceleration, and 'pop'; but because they also have improper fighting technique. Their shoulders are consistently too low, there's rarely torque on the hips for kicks or on the torso for punches. It only serves to exacerbate the fact that most techniques don't look nearly as accurate to their fighting styles as they should (although unless you participate in or watch combat sports or martial arts demonstrations you probably won't even notice this one). This might seem like a smaller problem in light of the above positives, but these are the most frequent animations in the game and the part that draws the most attention.
TEKKEN
+When it comes to strike and throw animations done in Tekken 4 and beyond, no one is seeing TEKKEN. All the things the DOA strike animations lack, the TEKKEN animations have in spades. Compare Bruce Irvin's muay thai to Zack's. Or Dragunov's sambo to Bayman's. Jin Kazama's karate to Hitomi's. Seriously. Pull up matches and compare similar moves. It's not even fair, really. Rig is the only character that looks as fluid, powerful, and accurate to the proper techniques as his TEKKEN counterpart (Baek). They even went back and reanimated their basic jab and the new mounted punches to have proper boxing fundamentals. TEKKEN doesn't have the variety of situational throws DOA does, but it has the most beautiful throw escapes around.
-TEKKEN is wildly inconsistent in many things* and it's animations are no different. It's good animations are better than anything out...but it's bad animations are also worse than anything around. Look at Kazuya's old TEKKEN 1 animations. Or the reversals that have been around since TEKKEN 2. Most of King and Nina's multi-throws are *dreadful*. This is to say nothing of the basic juggled animation, many stunned animations, prone position, cross chop, tackle, or shoulder ram. There's so much janky, old stuff laying around across the board that I couldn't really break it down into categories. It's like a 5-star restaurant serving fresh food and food from a month ago on the same plate; the mismash brings the whole dish down.
-No matter where you come out on TEKKEN's movement system and whether or not you appreciate the skill it takes to utilize it, it looks terrible from an animation standpoint. Characters seemingly having seizures for half of the match isn't attractive.
DOA's central problem in regards to animation is sort of the same as SoulCalibur's in that it has some outdated animations, but they aren't so egregious that the developers are likely to update them anytime soon, unlike TEKKEN and Virtua Fighter. TEKKEN, on the other hand, sees pretty frequent amounts of reanimation every new iteration, but the movelists and roster are so large (and rapidly expanding) that the time left for those things grows smaller and smaller.
*I can follow up this point later if need be (I'm mostly referring to analog vs digital gameplay and move input design).
Dead or Alive
+A higher standard of consistency that makes the overall package shine.
+The throws and counters are very good, although sometimes there isn't enough of a sense of weight. Add into that the characters have numerous throws and counters that involve the backgrounds makes this even more impressive.
+Their hit and supplemental reactions are the best in the business. Whether it's standing hits, stuns, juggles, bounds, hits to a grounded opponent (which looks MILES ahead of anything anyone else has), laying prone, tech-rolling, or getting up off the ground, DOA is in class of it's own.
+Due to the fact that you don't need cancelling to move about *moderately well*, movement looks infinitely better (although the new universal sidestep's animation is shockingly lazy from Team Ninja).
-Strike animations are largely awkward (except for Akira, Sarah, Rig and probably Mila) because they not only lack proper acceleration, deceleration, and 'pop'; but because they also have improper fighting technique. Their shoulders are consistently too low, there's rarely torque on the hips for kicks or on the torso for punches. It only serves to exacerbate the fact that most techniques don't look nearly as accurate to their fighting styles as they should (although unless you participate in or watch combat sports or martial arts demonstrations you probably won't even notice this one). This might seem like a smaller problem in light of the above positives, but these are the most frequent animations in the game and the part that draws the most attention.
TEKKEN
+When it comes to strike and throw animations done in Tekken 4 and beyond, no one is seeing TEKKEN. All the things the DOA strike animations lack, the TEKKEN animations have in spades. Compare Bruce Irvin's muay thai to Zack's. Or Dragunov's sambo to Bayman's. Jin Kazama's karate to Hitomi's. Seriously. Pull up matches and compare similar moves. It's not even fair, really. Rig is the only character that looks as fluid, powerful, and accurate to the proper techniques as his TEKKEN counterpart (Baek). They even went back and reanimated their basic jab and the new mounted punches to have proper boxing fundamentals. TEKKEN doesn't have the variety of situational throws DOA does, but it has the most beautiful throw escapes around.
-TEKKEN is wildly inconsistent in many things* and it's animations are no different. It's good animations are better than anything out...but it's bad animations are also worse than anything around. Look at Kazuya's old TEKKEN 1 animations. Or the reversals that have been around since TEKKEN 2. Most of King and Nina's multi-throws are *dreadful*. This is to say nothing of the basic juggled animation, many stunned animations, prone position, cross chop, tackle, or shoulder ram. There's so much janky, old stuff laying around across the board that I couldn't really break it down into categories. It's like a 5-star restaurant serving fresh food and food from a month ago on the same plate; the mismash brings the whole dish down.
-No matter where you come out on TEKKEN's movement system and whether or not you appreciate the skill it takes to utilize it, it looks terrible from an animation standpoint. Characters seemingly having seizures for half of the match isn't attractive.
DOA's central problem in regards to animation is sort of the same as SoulCalibur's in that it has some outdated animations, but they aren't so egregious that the developers are likely to update them anytime soon, unlike TEKKEN and Virtua Fighter. TEKKEN, on the other hand, sees pretty frequent amounts of reanimation every new iteration, but the movelists and roster are so large (and rapidly expanding) that the time left for those things grows smaller and smaller.
*I can follow up this point later if need be (I'm mostly referring to analog vs digital gameplay and move input design).
Great post. I think the reason I prefer Tekken over any other 3D fighter is exactly because it's the only one that gives you the impression of hitting your opponent HARD. When I look at a combo, it makes me want to learn how to do it. On the other hand, movements look so stupid in high level play. Namco should ditch that backdash cancelling animation, leave the movement intact but don't show the character going into crouch.
On a technical level, DOA is streets ahead. A lot of people like the artistic look of Tekken more though, apparently.
MrCookiepants
Member
T6 Jin's head is just awkward looking, especially in the jaw area. I get what you mean about the greased up look, but TTT2 Jin is much closer to what we're used to seeing in the CG movies and artwork.
Metalmurphy
Member
I love the invisible wall complaint. As if every single dead or alive never had that problem as well, doa5 isn't going to be any different.
I was gonna say the exact opposite.
defectivelasagna
Member
um. no
Metalmurphy
Member
I disagree. DoA5 models do have insane amount of detail in the faces, and personally I think that's a smart choice, it's impressive how they managed to make it look so smooth and round, and that's what people look at the most, but the entire models themselves I think Tekken has the edge. They are way more detailed, be it in body muscles, scars, veins, clothing, hair, etc. DoA5 models are actually quite simple.
Lighting wise I don't see anything special in DoA5 frankly. But then again, neither do I see it in Tekken. But there's no "miles ahead" discrepancy imo.
And sceneries, while DoA5 has the interactivity, which is great mind you, there's alot more shit going on in Tekken stages, be it in animated stuff or just static details.
As far as art style goes, and that's always subjective ofcourse, I prefer DoA.
What does DOA draw for tournaments on average- do folks show to play DOA?
I'm giving up on VF making EVO after seeing Summer Jam+MLG numbers- I just don't think it's enough.
denshuu
Member
There were more people playing DOA5 at Summerjam than Tekken. And Tekken 6 wasn't even at Evo this year.
Tekken 6 is a dead game these days, esp with Tag 2 coming out real soon. Not a fair comparison.
That said, did DOA outdraw VF? (VF had 32 at SJ)
I know there's more hype for DOA then I thought there would be- it's changed my tune on the game from meh to hype myself.
CadetMahoney
Member
I was 110% surprised KOF made it to EVO, let alone beat stream views over other games. But hardcore players supported it like no other, plus there were celebs like Bala helping gain interest.
I hope we don't see that fraudulent DOAMaster, and I hope we see some Koreans come over for DOA at a big event and show ppl what's what.
Thank god.
Dreamcancel had the same positive effect on the KOF community.
Does DOA have any advanced input techniques like ETEG or evade crouch dash cancelling?
grap3fruitman
Banned
Pre-release event with free entry. People traditionally have never showed up for DOA.
I'm not sure you have much of an interest in graphics (Or maybe you can't be bothered to discuss it I dunno). :/
Muscle toning, scars etc. aren't part of the models nowadays. They're added in ZBrush/Mudbox and are mostly part of the normal map. The actual meshes on DOA5 and Tekken look pretty similar on the torsos in terms of poly count, but DOA5 definitely has much better faces.
And what about the hair? DOA5 probably has the best hair I've ever seen in a console game, whereas Tekken's looks considerably more outdated. DOA5's is both high polygon and is using some kind of fancy shader, whereas Tekken's seems to be using a simple anisotropic texture and calling it a day.
This kind of thing applies to comparisons from every angle. Look at the skin, for example. DOA 5 uses a 'proper' (To the extent that it applies on outdated shader tech) skin shader, like you'd see in something like Uncharted. It's probably a faux subsurface scattering job, but it still looks really nice. Tekken uses a more standard lighting model, with what looks like a fresnel applied, giving it that strange glowy look. And then you've got the textures and whatnot, and the different dirt maps for when the characters are knocked down...
From a technical standpoint, I don't see how Tekken is more impressive. I haven't had a proper look at the stages in TTT2, so maybe they're really something special but based on the small amount I've seen, they're not...
Metalmurphy
Member
I do have interest in graphics, that's why I've been a PC gamer since I was 5
When I said model I meant the whole package, doesn't matter if it's a normal map, bump map, or whatever tech is being used, it's how it makes the model look, and TTT2 models look more detailed then DoA5 do.
Case and point:
And that's not a bullshot, something that's extremly hard to find in DoA5. I think DOA5 has the edge texture wise but again, bullshots make texture filtering wonders, so I'll wait to see some direct feed shots.
This is not a technical statement. It DOES matter if it's a normal map, because that means it has no bearing on the polygon count.
Metalmurphy
Member
No one, and I repeat, no one, uses an increase in polygons to make details like scars, veins, wrinkles, etc. Why would they? And why does it matter?
It's the final look that matters, and the final look is good.
That's what I said two posts ago!
Like I said, on a purely technical level, DOA5 is better. The meshes are better. The texture work is better. The lighting is better. It doesn't matter which 'looks' better because that's subjective.
Good lord.
Metalmurphy
Member
But why isn't the normal map use part of the technical level? That makes no sense. lol
And even if you don't wanna count it, for whatever reason, I still disagree that the meshes are better, there's still more detail on Tekken models, DoA5 models are very flat. Scars and faces might be normal maps, but the muscles aren't. DoA 5 Faces look great, rest, meh.
I also fail to see where the lighting is better. Seems every single area in DoA is using the same lighting as in Tekken there's an insane variation.
Don't know why you're all arguing about Evo, not like either game will be a factor, pretty sure SfxTks numbers from this year would double the combined numbers of Tag 2 and DOA 5 @ Evo.
Ono, Seth, Capcom said the exact same thing about SFxTK being a brand new engine because of 4 players etc.
Ono, Seth, Capcom said the exact same thing about SFxTK being a brand new engine because of 4 players etc.
The normal map IS a technical aspect, but completely removed from the mesh. The normal map is a texture. It has no bearing on the polygon count. Generally, normal maps aren't brought up in conversation unless they're exceptionally high or low resolution. TTT2 and DOA5 have completely standard normal maps. There is nothing significant about them whatsoever.
Metalmurphy
Member
What's with you and the polygons? That isn't the only thing you need to look at when considering a game on a tech level. Also read the rest of the post.
lol. Thanks for the laugh.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Terareflection
Member
This isn't a very smart comparison.
Okie dokie, I can see that this conversation is going nowhere. DOA5 is stronger. If you can't understand why even when someone is explaining it directly to you, that's your problem.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Thing is, at least he backed up his argument by showing examples, while you've been arguing that it's "better". Also I don't know why you want to discount normal mapping and then include the texture work being better in DOA5, when that doesn't contribute to the polygon count either.
I do think DOA5's lighting seems pretty good from the videos I've seen. I haven't really seen any high res proper footage yet to really judge the graphics of DOA5, so I don't really want to get into any discussion because I'm not informed enough. TTT2 does look fantastic though from what I've played in the arcade.
I do think DOA5's lighting seems pretty good from the videos I've seen. I haven't really seen any high res proper footage yet to really judge the graphics of DOA5, so I don't really want to get into any discussion because I'm not informed enough. TTT2 does look fantastic though from what I've played in the arcade.
Metalmurphy
Member
But you're not explaining it to me, your going "bu bu bu polygons" while disregarding everything else where Tekken is better.
And I'll say this once again, EVEN POLYGON WISE, I'm not sure sure DoA takes the cake, the faces do have a great mesh, the rest doesn't, all of DoA5 models are VERY flat. Even the males. Compare Bass to someone like Jin or Kazuya, the difference is huge, and NO, it's not "just" normal maps. (as if that's any reason to disregard it)
I think you're missing my point. He said the models were better because of something that is on the normal map, which is nothing to do with the model.
And normal maps aren't irrelevant, obviously (Pretty sure I never said they were), but it's incredibly difficult to tell when something has high res normal maps. I doubt any of us have played a game and thought "Man, these normal maps are way higher res than I'm used to seeing!".
Metalmurphy
Member
No, I did not. That was ONE of the reasons.
Also, it doesn't matter if it's high mid or low res when the other one is barely using them at all.
I only just saw this. Lol. This conversation is a joke if you think lighting refers to the variation of lighting quality. We're talking shaders and the like. Did you even read my post?
Metalmurphy
Member
It's easy to get one type of lighting better, if that's the only one you'll be using.
Canis lupus
Member
How many views does Tekken get?
Metalmurphy
Member
Is it?
Lets take a look at DoA5 lighting across several stages, even some at night that some how manage to get the same lighting. (gotta get some spot lights in there!)
Now Tekken
