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[Kuraine]

I'm obviously a bit biased since I work on the game (well, music), but this is definitely a super early look at combat. There's a lot of factors to how fights will play out that weren't in a state to be shown yet. Additional threat from zombies, special attacks on melee weapons to inflict various effects, etc. If you check out the Kickstarter update comments or forum thread, Brian's been responding to a bunch of comments and feedback.

One thing of my own is that smoother music implementation and different threat levels for combat music is still coming. And I'm going to be writing some variety of stings to play when hostiles are revealed in your fov.

So yes, there's a ways to go yet, but all constructive comments are super helpful

 

[Trigger]

Looks great. I'm hoping we get more updates on the characters and the shelter mechanics.

I don't like the camera though.

 

[Dr.Acula]

I used to hate turn-based RPGs until I've replayed my first RPG - Fallout 1-2 a year ago or so and played X-Com after that.

Now we have coming in the next 2 years:

-Underrail
-Age of Decadence
-Shadowrun
-Wasteland II
-Dead State
-Divinity: Original Sin.

Also similar:
-Project Eternity
-Torment

We'll be overwhelmed and spoiled.

I backed Wasteland2 b/c I was excited to play a retro turn based CRPG and Fallout 1&2 were two of my favourite games, then I backed Torment b/c it's supposed to be an adventure game on steroids. Project Eternity and Shadowrun (SNES game was one of my favs) escaped my backing b/c I wasn't aware when they launched -though I'm kinda glad for that in hindsight.

Really, I'm gonna play Wasteland for 10 hours, get bored of it, then have Torment come in my mailbox and not really be that into it, and I'll buy PE and Shadowrun off Steam and never play them

 

[Durante]

I'm sorry, but everyone who argues that less camera control is a positive is objectively wrong.

 

[Dr.Acula]

I'm obviously a bit biased since I work on the game (well, music),

Cool. I'm not a backer, and this game flew under my radar, but I'll make sure to check it out once it launches.

I think it's really neat that there are people like you and Brother None in the Torment thread who are communicating on boards with gamers. It really brings home that these are truly independent games being made, and that being crowd-sourced for funding really does result in the developers listening to the "crowd."

 

[Llyranor]

A bit rough on the edges, and some yet unimplemented stuff, but I quite like what I see. I'm more interested in the gameplay surrounding combat (and avoiding it) than the actual combat mechanics themselves. Otherwise, this will be basic turn-based combat, which will work fine for this game as long as it's solid enough.

'Zombie turn' will definitely be appreciated it (a la TOEE, kind of). Also, I really hope there are options to speed up walking/attack animations. 1x 2x 3x 4x or more, I'll take them all. Turn-based combat doesn't HAVE to be slow, it just has to be sequential (and you can even skip this part if it's all the enemies' turn and the AI calculates the moves beforehand, like in TOEE). You should get instantaneous (or near enough) feedback from your commands.

 

[FHIZ]

Lost me at standing directly next to a zombie and somehow miss with a blunt object.

 

[The_Player]

Looks like Silent Storm. Love it!

 

[trab pu kcip]

The most obvious thing based on the video that the game is missing is a cone of vision and fog of war.

Things just popping into existence while in reality they would be visible is easier to accept for me when the gameplay mechanics like vision are transparent to the player.

the first thing I thought. It really bothered me, I hope this is going to be fixed.
I kinda like how human enemies are so much more complex to deal with than zombies because they can make noise, come back to life if infected etc. just a lot more things to think about.
I agree that it still looks very rough though. we really need to see some more gameplay footage to be able to judge anything imo.

 

[Derrick01]

Lost me at standing directly next to a zombie and somehow miss with a blunt object.

That's dice rolls (and crpgs) for ya. It's the only part of them that I would be ok with streamlining into a player skill based system, but no one seems to limit the streamlining to just that. They end up stripping the entire game away.

 

[Alexios]

Lost me at standing directly next to a zombie and somehow miss with a blunt object.

If that's the kind of thing that stops you from being interested in such a game you would have found something else they would lose you with anyway. They all rely on unrealistic and abstract rulesets in different degrees. Like having turns for example.

That's dice rolls (and crpgs) for ya. It's the only part of them that I would be ok with streamlining into a player skill based system, but no one seems to limit the streamlining to just that. They end up stripping the entire game away.

How would you make melee hits player skill based n a turn based game? The only alternative I can see for such a situation is to not have the capability for misses, trading them off for minimal damage instead. Which still would have nothing to do with player skill. Just a different way to handle the same thing. If the combat system is good and balanced it's all good. This is really just a minor presentation issue. Human enemies could have a dodge animation so you'd get a dodge instead of a miss and zombies have all sorts of parts they may not really care about so that you'd get zero effect even with a hit. Maybe they'll change it into things like that once they get into the polishing off stage, or not care to spend effort on that over other things.

 

[Zeliard]

I love the idea that combat should be something to be avoided, but I think that would be communicated better if both sides were weaker. I understand that the player characters were buffed in the demo, but the zombies and human enemies should also be a bit more fragile. I think a concept of low defense/high damage would work well to keep combat a bit better-paced when you do get into it, as well as motivate the player to avoid it entirely if possible.

 

[FACE]

I love the idea that combat should be something to be avoided, but I think that would be communicated better if both sides were weaker. I understand that the player characters were buffed in the demo, but the zombies and human enemies should also be a bit more fragile. I think a concept of low defense/high damage would work well to keep combat a bit better-paced when you do get into it, as well as motivate the player to avoid it entirely if possible.

I definitely agree, a close-range shotgun blast on an armor-less character should generally instantly kill them.

 

[trab pu kcip]

I definitely agree, a close-range shotgun blast on an armor-less character should generally instantly kill them.

yes. I mean it made sense that the zombie took a lot of machete hits without dying, they explained that's that just one enemy specificity, but especially with the guns everything seemed a bit dragged

 

[Derrick01]

How would you make melee hits player skill based n a turn based game? The only alternative I can see for such a situation is to not have the capability for misses, trading them off for minimal damage instead. Which still would have nothing to do with player skill. Just a different way to handle the same thing. If the combat system is good and balanced it's all good. This is really just a minor presentation issue. Human enemies could have a dodge animation so you'd get a dodge instead of a miss and zombies have all sorts of parts they may not really care about so that you'd get zero effect even with a hit. Maybe they'll change it into things like that once they get into the polishing off stage, or not care to spend effort on that over other things.

Well the point I was hinting at is that I would prefer it to not be a turn based game and would prefer the combat to be more interactive from the player, a third or first person game like Dead Island I guess. But just for the actual combat, I still want everything else the game is offering including the sound meter. I feel like that would also create more tension with the zombies and other humans since you wouldn't be sitting there trading whacks with each other.

I also realize that is likely incredibly expensive and well out of the reach of what these guys could do financially, not to mention they don't seem to want to which is fine with me. It's only a minor complaint from me since they seem to (thankfully) be making avoiding combat more important in most normal cases. I'm letting my dreams get ahead of me again, where we can have a modern first or third person game with the depth of a crpg built around normal shooting or melee/stealth mechanics.

 

[Suairyu]

Rough-looking, but the whole exploration and scavenging for the base aspects are so intriguing.

I really wish I had known about this game during its kickstarter. Is there a slacker-backer option like most of the bigger titles have?

 

[Burt]

I love the idea that combat should be something to be avoided, but I think that would be communicated better if both sides were weaker. I understand that the player characters were buffed in the demo, but the zombies and human enemies should also be a bit more fragile. I think a concept of low defense/high damage would work well to keep combat a bit better-paced when you do get into it, as well as motivate the player to avoid it entirely if possible.

Completely agree with this. If you're trying to make combat a high-tension affair, 2-3 hits should be enough to splat pretty much anyone. Makes figuring out how to enter combat with the upper hand a much more important aspect.

Glad to see they've finally put out an update. Been following this game forever, and I don't think I've ever seen a more communication-averse development team in my life, which is pretty shitty considering that they were kickstarted.

 

[Labadal]

Completely agree with this. If you're trying to make combat a high-tension affair, 2-3 hits should be enough to splat pretty much anyone. Makes figuring out how to enter combat with the upper hand a much more important aspect.

Glad to see they've finally put out an update. Been following this game forever, and I don't think I've ever seen a more communication-averse development team in my life, which is pretty shitty considering that they were kickstarted.

They're talkative on the forums, but I do agree that they should probably do more official updates.

 

[Gilgamesh]

Lost me at standing directly next to a zombie and somehow miss with a blunt object.

I know it's RNG and all, but yeah, that did seem a little silly. Hit % is kinda annoying in most CRPGs. I'll be playing Fallout or Planescape or something and go through like 15 swings in a row at pure air sometimes.

 

[zkylon]

Killing enemies doesn’t give skill points - gathering resources or meeting objectives does

All sounds fantastic.

Looked pretty good, better than I expected, obvious roughness aside.

 

[Trigger]

Rough-looking, but the whole exploration and scavenging for the base aspects are so intriguing.

I really wish I had known about this game during its kickstarter. Is there a slacker-backer option like most of the bigger titles have?

Naw there hasn't been an update on pre-ordering, but I don't think the game will be very expensive at launch anyway.

 

[Tanolen]

It doesn't look any different from what I expected.
Maybe a bit better in some aspects (scenario) and a bit worse in others (character models and animations), but roughly on part with my prediction.

That said, the feature I liked the least in this demo is the goddamn free camera.
It looks like the one in Age of Decadence, which isn't good.

They should seriously consider the idea to lock the camera to a vertical axis (the center of the screen, the main character, whatever...) to allow smooth rotation around it. At least as an option.

The main developer behind age of decadence is working on this game.

 

[Unstoppable Lionheart]

Where's Evilore?

He was JUST noting his unhappiness with no updates to this game a couple of days ago.

He should be happy to see some of the progress (even if he still has a problem with the amount of updates).

Killing enemies doesn’t give skill points - gathering resources or meeting objectives does

All sounds fantastic.

Looked pretty good, better than I expected, obvious roughness aside.

That's money. Now I can actually play like I should instead of feeling the need to completely wipe an area clean of enemies.

 

[exmachina64]

Did Mitsoda voice a character in Bloodlines?

Where's Evilore?

He was JUST noting his unhappiness with no updates to this game a couple of days ago.

He should be happy to see some of the progress (even if he still has a problem with the amount of updates).

The combat video being released soon was mentioned when he was in that thread and I've seen the video mentioned in the news sections of a few gaming sites, so he's probably seen it by now.

 

[Trigger]

Did Mitsoda voice a character in Bloodlines?

His voice does sound familiar. Reminds me of a few of the npcs.

 

[Aselith]

That's money. Now I can actually play like I should instead of feeling the need to completely wipe an area clean of enemies.

Well, you still have to wipe it to make sure you got all the resources, yeah?

 

[Zeliard]

Did Mitsoda voice a character in Bloodlines?

He did voice work in the game, yes.

 

[Decado]

Interesting that they went with non-controllable NPCs. Not promising for the combat system, but it still could work, I guess.

It sounds a lot more promising than what was shown...which tells me they shouldn't have shown this (looks pretty bad, really).

 

[subversus]

Interesting that they went with non-controllable NPCs. Not promising for the combat system, but it still could work, I guess.

It sounds a lot more promising than what was shown...which tells me they shouldn't have shown this (looks pretty bad, really).

the whole idea revolves around your relationships with NPCs and how they behave in combat, i.e. a weak NPC can panic and run away, etc.

 

[trab pu kcip]

the whole idea revolves around your relationships with NPCs and how they behave in combat, i.e. a weak NPC can panic and run away, etc.

yes, that's also why you better keep an eye on dem toilet paper levels to keep everyone happy & cool.(and fresh of course)

 

[Trigger]

Interesting that they went with non-controllable NPCs. Not promising for the combat system, but it still could work, I guess.

It sounds a lot more promising than what was shown...which tells me they shouldn't have shown this (looks pretty bad, really).

Given how slow the updates have been it's better to show this alpha and give us a better idea of how the game plays than nothing.

 

[Tanolen]

His voice does sound familiar. Reminds me of a few of the npcs.

Wasnt he the news guy on TV

 

[Purkake4]

Looks ok, I guess. The commentary sounds really stilted, like he's reading it off a script or something.

 

[Decado]

the whole idea revolves around your relationships with NPCs and how they behave in combat, i.e. a weak NPC can panic and run away, etc.

So? No reason they can't do that with controllable NPCs (in combat). I've never actually seen it done well with non-controllable NPCs, at least not where there weren't a shit-tone of issues.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

Though obviously rough, this is everything I always wanted in a video game zombie apocalypse. I only wish that it were closer to being done. Would be fine with a hefty delay if it ensured the intended quality of experience at release...got a lot of stuff to play in the meantime.

 

[EviLore]

Phew, that looks rough.

Serious concerns about the combat mechanics. Standing in front of zombies and trading hits for five rounds (melee misses from behind on a shambling corpse?), and humans absorbing point blank shotgun blasts, none of it's the way to go about this.

 

[Derrick01]

Though obviously rough, this is everything I always wanted in a video game zombie apocalypse. I only wish that it were closer to being done. Would be fine with a hefty delay if it ensured the intended quality of experience at release...got a lot of stuff to play in the meantime.

I don't think they have a serious release date yet. I always took the december 2013 date they posted on their kickstarter as a placeholder since it seemed pretty hard to predict a date with so much work left.

But yes I want them to work on this as long as they need. As long as they keep us updated from time to time and not wait 8 months for another official update. I'm incredibly excited for this.

 

[benny_a]

Serious concerns about the combat mechanics. Standing in front of zombies and trading hits for five rounds (melee misses from behind on a shambling corpse?), and humans absorbing point blank shotgun blasts, none of it's the way to go about this.

I'm not a fan of hitpoint depletion in general. But turn-based are traditionally done that way, so I guess it's what everyone expects.

But they have said "effects" are missing.
What I think they could mean are stuff like: A point blank (or close) shotgun blast means the target moves two squares back and gets knocked on their back. Taking up one turn to get up.

This isn't particularly original but is what I expect of a game of this type at minimum.

 

[zkylon]

Phew, that looks rough.

Serious concerns about the combat mechanics. Standing in front of zombies and trading hits for five rounds (melee misses from behind on a shambling corpse?), and humans absorbing point blank shotgun blasts, none of it's the way to go about this.

I'm guessing the numbers are off at this early stage.

also remember these guys got almost ten times less money that shadowrun, wasteland, etc.

 

[Llyranor]

Btw, controllable NPCs will be a post-release modifier. It was one of the met Kickstarters goals.

 

[Jac_Solar]

If that's the kind of thing that stops you from being interested in such a game you would have found something else they would lose you with anyway. They all rely on unrealistic and abstract rulesets in different degrees. Like having turns for example.

How would you make melee hits player skill based n a turn based game? The only alternative I can see for such a situation is to not have the capability for misses, trading them off for minimal damage instead. Which still would have nothing to do with player skill. Just a different way to handle the same thing. If the combat system is good and balanced it's all good. This is really just a minor presentation issue. Human enemies could have a dodge animation so you'd get a dodge instead of a miss and zombies have all sorts of parts they may not really care about so that you'd get zero effect even with a hit. Maybe they'll change it into things like that once they get into the polishing off stage, or not care to spend effort on that over other things.

Melee = 100% hit chance. Damage based on players Melee skill.

NPC's with a very high dodge skill could dodge some hits. Proximity could also factor into the dodge chance. Dice roll compares the 100% hit chance of the player, and since the NPC is right next to the player, his 25 dodge skill gives him a 25% chance to dodge. Further away, his 25 dodge would equal 15%, assuming the player has a very long sword. Could extend to perhaps 2-3 tiles.

Point is, the game should require the player to invest a lot of effort into raising his dodge skill if he wants to start dodging melee. Only really high level NPC's, or unique NPC's should have a very high dodge skill.

Since there are also ranged weapons in this hypothetical scenario, spending all your XP/money on dodge would be a waste. Dodge should still be capped at less than 100% though.

 

[Unstoppable Lionheart]

Phew, that looks rough.

Serious concerns about the combat mechanics. Standing in front of zombies and trading hits for five rounds (melee misses from behind on a shambling corpse?), and humans absorbing point blank shotgun blasts, none of it's the way to go about this.

Didn't the update flat out say they still had a ton of balancing issues and it was just a showpiece?

 

[JDSN]

It looks really rough and the aspects that im interested (shelter, npcs interactions) werent shown. This is a December release right?

 

[Miletius]

Still stings me that they made so little compared to just about all of the other big crpg kickstarters. I would take this game idea over all of the others if I could only have one (and that's what they all still are right now, ideas and promises). That being said I'm glad they're not making combat the focus. I'll be trying to avoid it as much as possible like I would in a real zombie apocalypse and just scavenge for supplies.

To me the real game is going to be what goes on back at the base I create. At least going off what they said during their kickstarter.

I was about to say that I thought they were before the first run of really big gaming kickstarters but checking the date that just isn't true. I guess Mitsoda is just not as big as a name as Fargo and well, their pitch wasn't as polished as SRR and WL2.

I do think that companies have learned a lot about how to pitch since the early days of KS so in theory a Dead State kickstarter starting now instead of almost 10 months ago would probably earn more money than before. No way it would get anywhere near the Torment of Eternity numbers though.

Edit: Mitsoda should ask Brian Fargo for pitching lessons as part of the payment for Torment.

 

[Jenga]

I was just pulling your leg, no ill was intended.

no how dare you try to belittle a god

 

[Llyranor]

I was about to say that I thought they were before the first run of really big gaming kickstarters but checking the date that just isn't true. I guess Mitsoda is just not as big as a name as Fargo and well, their pitch wasn't as polished as SRR and WL2.

I do think that companies have learned a lot about how to pitch since the early days of KS so in theory a Dead State kickstarter starting now instead of almost 10 months ago would probably earn more money than before. No way it would get anywhere near the Torment of Eternity numbers though.

1) 'indie' game compared to those
2) was 'vaporware' instead of non-existant pre-KS

 

[subversus]

no how dare you try to belittle a god

you may laugh all you want but I want my leg back

 

[Derrick01]

I was about to say that I thought they were before the first run of really big gaming kickstarters but checking the date that just isn't true. I guess Mitsoda is just not as big as a name as Fargo and well, their pitch wasn't as polished as SRR and WL2.

I do think that companies have learned a lot about how to pitch since the early days of KS so in theory a Dead State kickstarter starting now instead of almost 10 months ago would probably earn more money than before. No way it would get anywhere near the Torment of Eternity numbers though.

Edit: Mitsoda should ask Brian Fargo for pitching lessons as part of the payment for Torment.

Besides Mitsoda not being as big of a name I think a lot of it was because it wasn't playing off any past nostalgia like Wasteland 2, Shadowrun and Torment are. Obsidian was big because it's god damn Obsidian, they're a big name to RPG fans across the industry. Mitsoda has a completely new IP in a new, tiny, and unknown studio. They had a lot of things working against them from the very beginning which made the not-so-amazing kickstarter pitch hurt even more.

 

[Llyranor]

Besides Mitsoda not being as big of a name I think a lot of it was because it wasn't playing off any past nostalgia like Wasteland 2, Shadowrun and Torment are. Obsidian was big because it's god damn Obsidian, they're a big name to RPG fans across the industry. Mitsoda has a completely new IP in a new, tiny, and unknown studio. They had a lot of things working against them from the very beginning which made the not-so-amazing kickstarter pitch hurt even more.

That + zombie fatigue, I guess. Nonetheless, it met all its goals except the expansion pack.

 

[zkylon]

also zombies.

zombies were cool like 5 years ago (not really but sure) when dead state started development, now I can't stand the sight of them.