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[Kamakazie!]

I played the game for...many hours, I would say. ..........
............
..................

Oh, and the 360 version didn't get many of the bugs fixed until months after the PC version, if I recall correctly, but that's to be expected.

Many hours... so what happened was that you got your monies worth in terms of play time? Glad we got that sorted.
So a load of you are complaining that there hasn't been enough post release support (to justify a sequel) yet you all mention the numerous patches released... somewhat contradictory.

As for the bugs, there are bugs in every game and having played the game from the first week, for a multiplayer game where exploits will purposefully be looked for, i don't think there were all that many. The game was most certainly polished at release as it was extremely well balanced and the game played great.

 

[eznark]

It never dawned on me but the media doesn't get a lot of information about this. We see the great deals on Steam and assume they're laughing all the way to bank. I got to dig some information on this.

Personally I am more interested in their overhead than their revenue. I have a feeling Valve hemorrhages capital.

 

[Akia]

Personally I am more interested in their overhead than their revenue. I have a feeling Valve hemorrhages capital.

Too bad we'll never know.

 

[eznark]

Too bad we'll never know.

Which is why any extrapolations of Valve's financial standing based solely on sales is ludicrous.

 

[Odyssey]

Aren't we all being a little assuming that this game, with such a comparatively small development cycle to their other titles, will be the Valve game that will actually come out on time?

edit - I do believe Gabe said in an interview that those weekend deals (at least with Valve's games) come out of his bank account.

 

[Doytch]

Aren't we all being a little assuming that this game, with such a comparatively small development cycle to their other titles, will be the Valve game that will actually come out on time?

edit - I do believe Gabe said in an interview that those weekend deals (at least with Valve's games) come out of his bank account.

Uhhh, no. He's said that weekend sales generate more money for the game than if it were regularly priced, the exact opposite...

 

[bdouble]

Valve ever been untrustworthy?

Valve is a business and businesses need to make money, but Valve was never the sort of business that would take money over integrity.
all.

If your so convinced its a business stop giving them personal traits. They don't have "honor, integrity, respect" They have a reason and some of us just won't ever understand it or expect it. After listening to them and hearing whats in it I think there is a reason for doing this instead of DLC like they originally planned.

edit - I do believe Gabe said in an interview that those weekend deals (at least with Valve's games) come out of his bank account.

Wat?

The TF2 updates really pay off, with sale spikes after every update. 106% increase in sales. The ability to gift accounts has lead to a 71% increase in sales. It also helped retail, with revenue increase 28%. Also, a 75% increase in new users of Steam generally. The point I’d take from that is that Valve’s policy of offering more to consumers is actually the smart commerical thing to do, assuming the increase in revenue is enough.

The sales are having an enormous effect. The recent Left 4 Dead sale lead to a 3000% increase over the previous numbers. That is, more than in the weekend it was released. Plus, another 1600% in new customers to Steam. None of this effected retail numbers.

One third party game - annoyingly, they don’t say which one - saw increases of 36,000% in a weekend sale.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2009/02/19/gabe-newell-valve-are-very-rich-its-awesome/

 

[Zzoram]

Why would they need money when they're making money hanf over fist with Steam.

I think this may be exaggerated among the hardcore. I really don't think they are making that much money with Steam, and their PC sales have probably fell below expectations like every other PC developer recently.

 

[Zzoram]

Oh, and the 360 version didn't get many of the bugs fixed until months after the PC version, if I recall correctly, but that's to be expected.

Microsoft limits developers to 2 or 3 patches per game before they start charging the developer for patches. This is why TF2 style updates couldn't work for Valve, they'd have to pay Microsoft to update their own game for customers and make no money doing it.

 

[Mileena]

The only answer to the thread title is here.

 

[Zzoram]

Hopefully I exercise same restraint and this is my final comment on the subject. I wonder if the reason there's such a difference in viewpoints between the console and PC side has to do with what you're buying. Maybe PC gamers do have an entitlement complex, but that's because of the delivery system.

On console, you spend your 60 dollars and you own a tangible product. You don't like it, your network doesn't play nice with it, you get bored... you sell it. And you recoup a large chunk of your money.

Valve on PC is you buy, you own it. You realize after 2 hours you don't like it, or network settings are janky for some reason, you own it. You've paid 50 dollars for a 2 hour rental.

But there's always been a covenant between Valve and their customer. Don't worry about it. Pre-order on day one without worries because: 1.) You'll get your money's worth 2.) If there are technical problems/balance issues, we support are games forever and we'll address it.

The second thing on that list is the thing I feel was neglected on L4D with their shift in policy. And that's why many of us are feeling we have to be much more wary about what they're doing. The rules have changed.

You speak as if Left 4 Dead 2 will be janky or that Valve left L4D1 broken. The original was a bit shaky in the opening hours, but I have owned the game from Day 1 and have always been able to play and have fun whenever I want, with no crashes. You get a fully functional, fun game. You should know if you like it by the demo. They are still going to patch the original.

 

[Red Scarlet]

I think the reason I am miffed about it (and maybe some others), is that they pretty much are pulling the plug on new stuff for L4D1 now. We'll never know what all could have been eventually added to it, be it new maps/campaigns, new enemies, and weapons that are now being made for 2 instead. It's like the game died before its prime. Never know the true potential.

I'll still play L4D1 definitely, but it is kinda bummy that who knows, maybe we'd have a new campaign by now that now got pushed away for part 2.

 

[1-D_FTW]

You speak as if Left 4 Dead 2 will be janky or that Valve left L4D1 broken. The original was a bit shaky in the opening hours, but I have owned the game from Day 1 and have always been able to play and have fun whenever I want, with no crashes. You get a fully functional, fun game. You should know if you like it by the demo. They are still going to patch the original.

I went on a bender the day it was released and played the campaigns straight through. After that, I played versus exclusively. But I definitely had consistent problems with servers and versus.

Campaign didn't have these for me, but versus was a love/hate affair for me. Loved when I was playing, hated when I was fighting the problems.

My purchase will definitely hinge on a demo. If the demo includes versus and fixes the issues I had, I'll cave. But I kept wondering when L4D would fix problems and, to my disappointment, never came. So, yeah, I really hope a demo is there. Because I know what I need to look at and will quickly be able to judge.

 

[BlazeHedgehog]

If your so convinced its a business stop giving them personal traits. They don't have "honor, integrity, respect" They have a reason and some of us just won't ever understand it or expect it. After listening to them and hearing whats in it I think there is a reason for doing this instead of DLC like they originally planned.

Except, again, TF2.

3 new gametypes. 12 new maps. 15 18 new weapons, roughly 8 of which introduce brand new game mechanics such as mini-crits, stun effects, feigning death, and more. Though not a 1:1 comparison, I personally think it's equivalent enough to the changes happening to the game mechanics between L4D and L4D2.

Valve created the Steam software platform. Left4Dead is one of their properties. They could release DLC that turns it in to a kart racer for all anybody cares - but the point is that they could, because they're the ones who write the rules on that sort of stuff. There is nobody telling Valve, "this is too much new stuff, we have to make a sequel instead of DLC."

If Valve has enough time to create five campaigns for a sequel that is, at its heart, just an expanded version of a game I already own, then those five campaigns could have been released as DLC like they originally planned.

Apologize for it, defend it, but I have heard nothing about L4D2 that is too extreme for the type of DLC Valve has put out in the past for other games.

 

[Ikuu]

I like how they admit they didn't like how people were playing the game, but rather than actually fixing them they're saying, well if you buy the sequel it'll be fixed!

Personally I don't see why they couldn't of added some one map 'campaigns' for Versus atleast, it solves the issue of Versus being this huge time-sink and allows people to jump in quickly and finish a game, make it bigger than a normal map and add a rescue event at the end.

 

[Zzoram]

I think the reason I am miffed about it (and maybe some others), is that they pretty much are pulling the plug on new stuff for L4D1 now. We'll never know what all could have been eventually added to it, be it new maps/campaigns, new enemies, and weapons that are now being made for 2 instead. It's like the game died before its prime. Never know the true potential.

I'll still play L4D1 definitely, but it is kinda bummy that who knows, maybe we'd have a new campaign by now that now got pushed away for part 2.

The SDK is still coming out, so people who are really against L4D2 can still make maps for L4D1.

Ya I guess it sucks more content wasn't released, but I still got my money's worth.

Unlike the awful Far Cry 2 I bought at full price on Steam and couldn't stand to play more than 4 hours of. Or CoDWaW I bought for $25 and played 2 hours of before never wanting to again.

 

[Zzoram]

I like how they admit they didn't like how people were playing the game, but rather than actually fixing them they're saying, well if you buy the sequel it'll be fixed!

haha that's semi-true. The Charger is purely meant to prevent corner camping, and the new crescendo events are designed to keep people moving.

 

[Mrbob]

As crazy as this sounds, could this possibly be another Valve experiment?

Gabe has talked about how they are constantly trying different things to boost sales of their games. Since Valve has never tried something like this before, perhaps they'll take the L4D2 data and compare it towards the updates they have done with other games and compare sales data. Which could end up being a good thing or a bad thing.

At the end of the day, Valve had to expect some backlash at a L4D2 announcement but I believe it is much larger than they anticipated. I'm sick of the entitlement posts, you guys are way off base. It would be entitlement if the head honcho of Valve had not come out and said L4D would be treated like TF2.

But whatever, what is done is done. I'm not against paying for some extra campaigns like what L4D2 is offering (I don't think anyone has). But since this is an expansion pack, I want to pay expansion pack price ($20 to $30) and not full retail price.

 

[Blizzard]

Many hours... so what happened was that you got your monies worth in terms of play time? Glad we got that sorted.

So a load of you are complaining that there hasn't been enough post release support (to justify a sequel) yet you all mention the numerous patches released... somewhat contradictory.

As for the bugs, there are bugs in every game and having played the game from the first week, for a multiplayer game where exploits will purposefully be looked for, i don't think there were all that many. The game was most certainly polished at release as it was extremely well balanced and the game played great.

You just put words into my mouth. I don't consider "X number of hours" to equal "getting my money's worth" for multiplayer games. I feel like the amount of enjoyment I got from it and the polish and support were worth probably $25-30, especially now that I see a sequel is being released that I may not get. So, I feel I gave extra to support Valve at full price, but in hindsight I could have as well not gotten the game or gotten it at a discount and spent the time playing other games, if you're considering value. Everyone's different in what they feel their money is worth, though.

The numerous patches were largely to fix bugs, as was mentioned. There was one major content patch that I know of, and that provided two vs. mode campaigns (that should have been in there from the start, in some people's opinion) and survival mode (which I don't really like).

I also don't really know that it was extremely well balanced at release, but that's more a matter of opinion, I suppose. I feel like recently with the melee fatigue it is finally approaching a balance where the infected team nearly has an advantage.

 

[Blizzard]

Microsoft limits developers to 2 or 3 patches per game before they start charging the developer for patches. This is why TF2 style updates couldn't work for Valve, they'd have to pay Microsoft to update their own game for customers and make no money doing it.

And thus, my "but that's to be expected", due to the reasons you stated, no?

 

[ezekial45]

Except, again, TF2.

3 new gametypes. 12 new maps. 15 new weapons, roughly 8 of which introduce brand new game mechanics such as mini-crits, stun effects, feigning death, and more. Though not a 1:1 comparison, I personally think it's equivalent enough to the changes happening to the game mechanics between L4D and L4D2.

Lets be fair here. You're acting as though Valve released all the TF2 updates at once, which they didn't. All the TF2 updates so far have been released sporadically for the past year (first major one was in April 08). Valve is going to release L4D2 with 5 campaigns (roughly 20 different maps), new weapons, new enemies, new mechanics, and etc, ALL AT ONCE.

I can see where you're going, and why others are upset, but comparing two different games like this (one of which was just announced 2 days ago), is unfair.

 

[Red Scarlet]

You just put words into my mouth. I don't consider "X number of hours" to equal "getting my money's worth" for multiplayer games. I feel like the amount of enjoyment I got from it and the polish and support were worth probably $25-30, especially now that I see a sequel is being released that I may not get. So, I feel I gave extra to support Valve at full price, but in hindsight I could have as well not gotten the game or gotten it at a discount and spent the time playing other games, if you're considering value. Everyone's different in what they feel their money is worth, though.

The numerous patches were largely to fix bugs, as was mentioned. There was one major content patch that I know of, and that provided two vs. mode campaigns (that should have been in there from the start, in some people's opinion) and survival mode (which I don't really like).

I also don't really know that it was extremely well balanced at release, but that's more a matter of opinion, I suppose. I feel like recently with the melee fatigue it is finally approaching a balance where the infected team nearly has an advantage.

I still think something is up with your computer. I have a higher ping and a worse computer and never got those lag issues you did. I think your computer is half-broken. It's all that Mirror's Edge crashing.

 

[Blizzard]

I still think something is up with your computer. I have a higher ping and a worse computer and never got those lag issues you did. I think your computer is half-broken. It's all that Mirror's Edge crashing.

I will SHANK you.

Spoiler

Running Windows 7 beta and tons of Firefox tabs with GAF open might not have helped. It's a new computer built from scratch, it shouldn't be broken ;_;

Side note, you should get on Steam again. I haven't seen you in FOREVER.

 

[CajoleJuice]

When was the last time a high-profile PC developer came out with a full-priced direct sequel to a multiplayer-heavy game in ONE year? Especially to start off a franchise. Even Call of Duty 1 and 2 were released two years apart. I'm seriously curious, since I can't think of any.

 

[BlazeHedgehog]

Lets be fair here. You're acting as though Valve released all the TF2 updates at once, which they didn't. All the TF2 updates so far have been released sporadically for the past year (first major one was in April 08). Valve is going to release L4D2 with 5 campaigns (roughly 20 different maps), new weapons, new enemies, new mechanics, and etc, ALL AT ONCE.

I can see where you're going, and why others are upset, but comparing two different games like this (one of which was just announced 2 days ago), is unfair.

I'm going on what I know. It's not as though I don't want more Left4Dead, after all, and I'll be glad if Valve gives me a reason to stop worrying about all this bullshit and get the sequel. But they haven't. What they are showing and what they are saying is bad news right now.

My comparisons to TF2 are simply that dramatic "tweaks" to the game's original design are not out of the question with regards to downloadable content - and that's all I see L4D2 as. Introducing The Charger is a balance tweak in the same way that the Heavy being able to eat a sandwich to recover health is a balance tweak. Not the same kind of balance tweak, mind you, but none-the-less, it's new, different content introduced to existing gameplay to fix a "problem" (that's what everything new in L4D2 sounds like, to me).

If Valve themselves wants to make me eat my words, they are welcome. I will have no qualms conceding when given a reason to. Until then, I call'em like I see'em.

 

[Red Scarlet]

I will SHANK you.

Spoiler

Running Windows 7 beta and tons of Firefox tabs with GAF open might not have helped. It's a new computer built from scratch, it shouldn't be broken ;_;

Side note, you should get on Steam again. I haven't seen you in FOREVER.

I'm just taking a break from the game, since I can play my other stuff now at home. All I had at school was my PC, so I played lots of L4D then.

 

[CajoleJuice]

Hey Scar, do you still play L4D at all? I do kinda want to beat at least one campaign on expert.

And I'm retarded and didn't read your post RIGHT ABOVE MINE.

 

[Chinner]

L4D made more money on the Xbox.

Valve is salivating at making more Xbox dollars.

An Xpac the size of L4D2 doesn't cut it in the console world. So sequel.

Goodbye, Old Valve. It was nice while it lasted.

taa daaa

 

[Red Scarlet]

Hey Scar, do you still play L4D at all? I do kinda want to beat at least one campaign on expert.

And I'm retarded and didn't read your post RIGHT ABOVE MINE.

Duckroll asked if I had ever beaten an expert campaign on Monday, and he wants to try sometime this week. When he wants to I will probably go play with him, should be fun since it has been awhile since I last played. If you want to try expert sometime, just pm me on irc or whatever.

 

[wayward archer]

When was the last time a high-profile PC developer came out with a full-priced direct sequel to a multiplayer-heavy game in ONE year? Especially to start off a franchise. Even Call of Duty 1 and 2 were released two years apart. I'm seriously curious, since I can't think of any.

Unreal Tournament 2003 and UT2k4 is the only PC release like this I can think of.

On consoles Capcom released Resident Evil Outbreak and it's sequel a year apart, and those were multiplayer heavy games.

 

[VaLiancY]

Duckroll asked if I had ever beaten an expert campaign on Monday, and he wants to try sometime this week. When he wants to I will probably go play with him, should be fun since it has been awhile since I last played. If you want to try expert sometime, just pm me on irc or whatever.

I also need Expert on 2 levels when I damn sure known I've done 3. Damn buggy achievements and did you ever get your medals for Survival mode?

 

[Blizzard]

Duckroll asked if I had ever beaten an expert campaign on Monday, and he wants to try sometime this week. When he wants to I will probably go play with him, should be fun since it has been awhile since I last played. If you want to try expert sometime, just pm me on irc or whatever.

...Duckroll is a REAL PERSON and not a mod joke account? :lol :lol :lol

I should play with you two. It'd be great and I'd probably become a mod by association.

Oh, and I actually need like three expert survivals again since the achievement thing erased my What Are You Trying to Prove. (if I even go for achievements)

 

[CajoleJuice]

Unreal Tournament 2003 and UT2k4 is the only PC release like this I can think of.

Bah, duh. Forgot about that. :\

 

[Red Scarlet]

I also need Expert on 2 levels when I damn sure known I've done 3. Damn buggy achievements and did you ever get your medals for Survival mode?

...Duckroll is a REAL PERSON and not a mod joke account? :lol :lol :lol

I should play with you two. It'd be great and I'd probably become a mod by association.

Oh, and I actually need like three expert survivals again since the achievement thing erased my What Are You Trying to Prove. (if I even go for achievements)

Sure, just give me a hollar somewhere.

No, I still don't have the all golds achievement, and now the map that is bugged for me is my longest survival time on any of them.

 

[Cheeto]

Unreal Tournament 2003 and UT2k4 is the only PC release like this I can think of.

But, didn't UT2k4 include something like 80 new maps and new gametypes?

 

[Zzoram]

I'm just taking a break from the game, since I can play my other stuff now at home. All I had at school was my PC, so I played lots of L4D then.

That's an understatement :lol I think you averaged 80 hours per 2 weeks for several months straight.

 

[CajoleJuice]

That's an understatement :lol I think you averaged 80 hours per 2 weeks for several months straight.

Killin' zombies is a full-time job.

 

[lethial]

Money here!

 

[Zzoram]

Money here!

:lol

 

[Mash]

But, didn't UT2k4 include something like 80 new maps and new gametypes?

I don't know numbers but the UT2k3 and UT2k4 scenario seems like a good example of what's happening here too. A lot of people were pissed but Epic wanted to get it right and they felt that justified a do-over. BUT, they did give UT2k3 owners a rebate. Hint hint Valve.

 

[andycapps]

For those asking about going through expert campaign, I'd love to. Tried it a while back with vertopci and a couple other guys from GAF whose names are escaping me, but I have on my friends list. Took 4 hours and we ended up quitting out on the finale after trying it through at least 5 times. Friendly fire is the hardest part about it, IMO. Anyway, we ended up quitting out, my wife was PISSED at me for being on there that long and I was honestly getting fatigued at playing for that long straight. :lol

But if someone wants to try expert this Friday night, I may be able to make it. I'd probably vote for The Apartments.

Now that my derail is over, I'm done. I've already put in my two cents on the L4D2 being full-priced thing.. :lol

 

[BobsRevenge]

I don't know numbers but the UT2k3 and UT2k4 scenario seems like a good example of what's happening here too. A lot of people were pissed but Epic wanted to get it right and they felt that justified a do-over. BUT, they did give UT2k3 owners a rebate. Hint hint Valve.

They were going with a more sports style release schedule where they would release yearly. However, they didn't carry through with it and only released those two. They didn't do it because they wanted a do-over. I don't remember anyone being pissed. The shit was planned when they released UT2k7.

Valve is just being really fucking weird. I'm not going to buy L4D2, at least not until there is a damn good sale on it. Even then I'd feel suckered into it. :lol

edit: They still haven't released the fucking SDK for the first one. Goddamnit Valve.

 

[Grayman]

Where did you read this? I must know.

This is the first google result i got but the info was covered at other places. http://www.steamfriends.com/news/3911/steam-holiday-sales-are-success-valve-comics-way

I did embellish a little.

During the Holiday sales:

10% sale = 35% increase in sales (real dollars, not units shipped)
25% sale = 245% increase in sales
50% sale = 320% increase in sales
75% sale = 1470% increase in sales

 

[Zzoram]

This is the first google result i got but the info was covered at other places. http://www.steamfriends.com/news/3911/steam-holiday-sales-are-success-valve-comics-way

I did embellish a little.

During the Holiday sales:

10% sale = 35% increase in sales (real dollars, not units shipped)
25% sale = 245% increase in sales
50% sale = 320% increase in sales
75% sale = 1470% increase in sales

There is a reason they only speak in %. The VAST majority of games that received massive % boosts were extremely low volume to begin with. Games on 75% sale were things like Trials 2, which probably only sold 147 copies.

 

[Salmonax]

There is a reason they only speak in %. The VAST majority of games that received massive % boosts were extremely low volume to begin with. Games on 75% sale were things like Trials 2, which probably only sold 147 copies.

Left 4 Dead got a 3000% increase in sales during a 50% off weekend. I'd bet that's reasonably high-volume.

 

[RocketDarkness]

I'd be glad to help with any expert campaigns, Red. Just give me a shout when you're online.

 

[Red Scarlet]

It's up to them.

 

[wayward archer]

They were going with a more sports style release schedule where they would release yearly. However, they didn't carry through with it and only released those two. They didn't do it because they wanted a do-over. I don't remember anyone being pissed. The shit was planned when they released UT2k7.

Valve is just being really fucking weird. I'm not going to buy L4D2, at least not until there is a damn good sale on it. Even then I'd feel suckered into it. :lol

edit: They still haven't released the fucking SDK for the first one. Goddamnit Valve.

Next week according to the interview on the Rock Paper Shotgun podcast.

Supposed to have the custom map finder/autodownload feature as well. But we'll see. I'm more pissed at valve for slacking off on the SDK than I am about L4D2, personally. I'm ready for the community to take over and have tons of new maps, new weapons, slow zombie mods, ultra realism mods, etc etc...

 

[Zzoram]

Left 4 Dead got a 3000% increase in sales during a 50% off weekend. I'd bet that's reasonably high-volume.

That depends on what the % increase means. Is it, day over day increase? Weekend over weekend increase? Week over week increase?

I bet an average day outside of the launch window doesn't see particularly high volume.

 

[Zzoram]

Killin' zombies is a full-time job.

Just to clarify, I think It's awesome that Red Scarlet played so much L4D. I'm jealous.