Support NeoGAF

[charlequin]

Don't worry, everyone! No matter what happens I'm sure if this winds up happening it'll at least be a better Sony-new-team-sequel than Alundra 2.

i don't think it's possible because i imagine that many of the design features DS had (like the online mode,world tendency system,etc) are also patterned and copyrighted by Sony Japan.

Nah. You can't protect game mechanics through copyright and we'd already know about any patents related to the game system implementations in Demon's Souls. There shouldn't be pretty much anything stopping From from using any or all DS mechanics they're interested in carrying over.

 

[Danielsan]

I just don't see the point of a sequel without having much to do with the original game, kind of like BioShock and BioShock 2

Well Bioshock 2 was exactly that. More of the first game. Of course this also meant it wasn't very original or innovative. However if people are content with more Demon's Souls, that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

 

[Canova]

From Software wants the monies

no, it's more like Sony abandoned them, and now From Soft got the last laugh

 

[sublimit]

Don't worry, everyone! No matter what happens I'm sure if this winds up happening it'll at least be a better Sony-new-team-sequel than Alundra 2.



Nah. You can't protect game mechanics through copyright and we'd already know about any patents related to the game system implementations in Demon's Souls. There shouldn't be pretty much anything stopping From from using any or all DS mechanics they're interested in carrying over.

I'm sure they copyright certain game design schemes (for example i remember SCEJ recently copyrighted a design document for The Last Guardian) so it would be illegal for someone else to use them.
I really think it's impossible to make a true Demon's Souls sequel without the contribution of SCEJ.

 

[Kuran]

I'll take a teaser that looks exactly like Demon's Souls, seems to play exactly like Demon's Souls and is being developed by the Demon's Souls team who we know are fully aware of what Demon's Souls fans want over a sequel that only has the name and little more as of now.

Seriously, can anyone think of a developer SCEJ could commision that would make a good sequel?

WTF is wrong with GAF. They cry over some western DS shovelware developer going kaput, they laugh when the creator of Dead Rising quits Capcom, and now they act as if SCEJ is useless?

I am 90% sure Demon's Souls is as good as it is, because of SCEJ's involvement.
This is From software after all. Great concepts/ game worlds, but their execution was always limiting their appeal to a small audience.

And besides, from Wikipedia: SCE Japan Studio (Team Ico) – Ape Escape, Siren, LocoRoco, Patapon, Ico, Shadow of the Colossus, The Last Guardian

 

[InfiniteNine]

As long as the Maiden in Black is there, and From is co-developing it I'm okay with this.

 

[The_Reckoning]

I echo the above....

No From, No Sale!

 

[dralla]

if it's not From that who cares

 

[charlequin]

I'm sure they copyright certain game design schemes (for example i remember SCEJ recently copyrighted a design document for The Last Guardian) so it would be illegal for someone else to use them.

You are mistaken. Copyright covers the content of individual creative works; that includes the precise text, images, and sounds included within, as well as the manifest details of any narrative storyline presented (i.e. the existence of a specific set of characters and locations in a specific relationship to one another.) It does not protect game mechanics in any way. Developers are free to look at games produced by other developers and adapt their mechanics in any way they see fit. Copyright has no bearing on whether From can utilize any and all mechanics from Demon's Souls in Project Dark (they can and assuredly will.)

WTF is wrong with GAF. They cry over some western DS shovelware developer going kaput, they laugh when the creator of Dead Rising quits Capcom, and now they act as if SCEJ is useless?

There's a big difference between thinking that SCEJ are useless and thinking that in one specific case they can't duplicate the particular magic that made a specific title by a specific developer so great without access to said developer.

Think about it this way. The quality of Team ICO's games is unquestionably influenced and improved by the support they've received from SCEJ over the years, but if they were to somehow leave Sony and develop their next game as an independent developer, who would you trust to make the "real" follow-up to Ico, SotC, and Last Guardian -- Ueda's team working on their own, or SCEJ tapping some brand new team to make "Shadow of the Colossus 2"?

 

[Stike]

Next up: SCEJ purchasing From Software

Spoiler

utter speculation, of course!

 

[sublimit]

You are mistaken. Copyright covers the content of individual creative works; that includes the precise text, images, and sounds included within, as well as the manifest details of any narrative storyline presented (i.e. the existence of a specific set of characters and locations in a specific relationship to one another.) It does not protect game mechanics in any way. Developers are free to look at games produced by other developers and adapt their mechanics in any way they see fit. Copyright has no bearing on whether From can utilize any and all mechanics from Demon's Souls in Project Dark (they can and assuredly will.)

Ok if SCEJ filed a patent for some specific Demon's Souls design documents just like they did for The Last Guardian how could anyone else be able to use or copy those design ideas?

A patent for an invention grants a property right to the inventor that will prevent anyone else from making, using, or selling an invention. A patent lasts for a limited amount of time, usually 20 years from the date the application was filed, and is only effective in the country in which it was filed. The application for a patent must include a detailed description of how the invention works. Since a patent is considered "property," it may be bought, sold, mortgaged, or licensed by the owner.

 

[Kurosaki Ichigo]

Great, now Atlus USA can feel twice as cheated as SCEA takes Demon's Souls 2 under their umbrella :lol

^ Not funny at all if it ends up being true.

 

[John Rabbit]

Fuck yeah (but only if they collaborate with From Software.)

And people who are too eager to describe Project Dark as a "spiritual" successor to Demon's Souls chances are will be disappointed in the end.

you're not familiar with from software are you?

 

[oracrest]

Demon's Souls 2 needs to be made by FROM.

 

[Horns]

I'll buy two copies. One to import and one when it comes to the States.

 

[Corto]

And to think that Demon's Souls was mocked by so many people when it was first revealed at TGS 08! :lol

 

[sixteen-bit]

And to think that Demon's Souls was mocked by so many people when it was first revealed at TGS 08! :lol

oh man, i need to see that thread for the crow servage? got a link?

 

[makingmusic476]

Why are people saying things like "No From, no sale!"?

The interview was done simultaneously with both the producer of the game from SCEJ and the director of the game from From Software.

The director lets the producer answer the question, and why would the producer say there could be a sequel right in front of the director if they didn't plan to include From Software?

Also, given the words of both FS and SCEJ, they never expected the game to be the success it is today, especially after seeing first week shipment orders. It seems like both were waiting to determine whether a sequel would be a good idea, which makes me wonder all the more just how Project Dark will relate to Demon's Souls.

I get the feeling most people didn't read any more of the article than what's in the OP.

 

[Misterinenja]

Why waste time and talent to develop two similar games? But wait other one is exclusive so it must be better.

 

[Canova]

Why waste time and talent to develop two similar games? But wait other one is exclusive so it must be better.

because you can't have enough of a good thing

 

[MvmntInGrn]

And to think that Demon's Souls was mocked by so many people when it was first revealed at TGS 08! :lol

I remember comparing the TGS08 footage to the game after I played it. The framerate was pretty bad in the original demo. The demo had shadows (which were removed in the final release, then patched back in later without the performance problems). Some effects looked a bit different in the final release to (maybe simplified). Physics originally caused more slowdown to.

There are some TGS videos on Gametrailers if you want to check them out.

EDIT: Basically saying it doesn't surprise me it was mocked at first. Glad early importers of the game made a thread for it at kept it updated with impressions.

 

[WTFing]

So much potential, please be true! 2011 PS3 graphics and animations, this sequel'll be more than awesome!

 

[Corto]

I remember comparing the TGS08 footage to the game after I played it. The framerate was pretty bad in the original demo. The demo had shadows (which were removed in the final release, then patched back in later without the performance problems). Some effects looked a bit different in the final release to (maybe simplified). Physics originally caused more slowdown to.

There are some TGS videos on Gametrailers if you want to check them out.

Yes, I remember those. I was just pointing how ironic it is that a game can reach such a cult status with such a bumpy start.

 

[Canova]

Yes, I remember those. I was just pointing how ironic it is that a game can reach such a cult status with such a bumpy start.

The biggest underdog that becomes the standard of action RPG. From now on every single action RPG will be compared to Demon's Souls

 

[Skilletor]

The biggest underdog that becomes the standard of action RPG. From now on every single action RPG will be compared to Demon's Souls

Only by fanatics. :lol

 

[Corto]

Only by fanatics. :lol

That's what we all are. Aren't you?

 

[MvmntInGrn]

oh man, i need to see that thread for the crow servage? got a link?

This(start around 283) is the only thread I can find that talks about the TGS videos. Quite a few comments about the stiff-looking combat (though in most of the TGS videos I don't think anyone used lock-on).

From that link:

The fact that they're From. Have you played any of their games? Were you around for other From announcements, like the Armored Core 4 reveal, where people unfamiliar with From got similarly hyped? This is going to be the same deal. The game will come out, get terrible reviews, and no one will buy it but From fans.

I didn't really know about From at the time, but knowing what I know now this is probably the outcome I would have assumed for the game. Luckily it ended up very different.

 

[Skilletor]

That's what we all are. Aren't you?

A glutton for punishment, maybe, as I really enjoy the game. A fanatic? No. I would hate for more games to be like Demon's Souls. I don't have that kind of time to devote, and I rather enjoy faster paced ARPGs.

 

[charlequin]

Ok if SCEJ filed a patent for some specific Demon's Souls design documents

They didn't.

 

[WickedLaharl]

doesn't really matter to me if a sequel never comes. the spiritual successor is on the way and that's good enough (which i hope is successful and FS just builds upon it).

 

[sublimit]

They didn't.

You work for SCEJ?

 

[Zzoram]

There's no way Sony can patent the game mechanics, even if they want to. Imagine what would happen if someone patented online matchmaking lobbys or sniper score zoom for FPS games.

 

[Skilletor]

You work for SCEJ?

If Sony could do such a thing with game mechanics, don't you think they would have sued for Dante's Inferno?

Silly person.

 

[Totobeni]

well From used to work on their own IPs like Armored Core and other Mech games for other publishers all the time , so I don't see why they will not work on Demon's Souls direct sequel if SCEJ give them enough money next time.

No From, no sale.

I really don't know , sure without the original developers it can be shitty like Alundra 2 , but also they can hire quality team that can copy the game and improve it , for examples just see what Blue Castle ,Treyarch and Obsidian Entertainment do ,so it's possible to have good sequel from other than the original developers.

 

[sublimit]

If Sony could do such a thing with game mechanics, don't you think they would have sued for Dante's Inferno?

Silly person.

Congrats for your inability to read my posts correctly.

 

[TheExecutive]

Just came in here to post that SCEJ is a pile of dog shit for letting this franchise basically go. Looking forward to Demon's Souls 2 in 2016 when they actually gets their act together.

 

[John Rabbit]

Congrats for your inability to read my posts correctly.

what did he fail to understand? your assertion that SCEJ has in some way patented and copywritten game mechanics from demon's souls that existed before that title was even in development? or the part where you somehow feel a game that is in almost every way a king's field title, was improved upon by SCEJ saying "here's some money, make this game"?

 

[Skilletor]

what did he fail to understand? your assertion that SCEJ has in some way patented and copywritten game mechanics from demon's souls that existed before that title was even in development? or the part where you somehow feel a game that is in almost every way a king's field title, was improved upon by SCEJ saying "here's some money, make this game"?

I didn't read his post about the Last Guardian thing, but thanks.

That's basically what I was saying. Since, you know, Project Dark looks exactly like Demon's Souls.

 

[Snuggles]

Not sure how I feel about this, but the key word is "can" and not will so who knows if this will ever happen.

Demon's Souls is the game of the gen and I certainly want more, but we have Project Dark with the original dev's to deliver that. Considering how much I love the game, I'd hate to see a direct sequel that isn't worthy of the name. Oh well, it's all hypothetical at this point.

 

[Canova]

A glutton for punishment, maybe, as I really enjoy the game. A fanatic? No. I would hate for more games to be like Demon's Souls. I don't have that kind of time to devote, and I rather enjoy faster paced ARPGs.

Ninja Gaiden-RPG?


I'm all for that too!!!

 

[sublimit]

what did he fail to understand? your assertion that SCEJ has in some way patented and copywritten game mechanics from demon's souls that existed before that title was even in development?

*sigh*
I said that IF SCEJ filed a patent for a specific gameplay mechanic feature from Demon's Souls then how on earth could FS use it for another game of their own?Demon's Souls is property of Sony so chances are they may have filed some patents for some of the more unique elements of gameplay like the online system.Just like they patented the gameplay design for the last Guardian i posted earlier.If they didn't do it for DS then yes FS could probably copy these gameplay elements and use them for Project Dark.
But we don't know this yet.And who said that they did this before DS was in development???
If you want to believe that Project Dark will be Demon's Souls 2 then please by all means go ahead.
And as for your question of my familiarity with FS besides Demon's Souls i own and played every Armored Core since the first one came on playstation but no i haven't played King's Field.

or the part where you somehow feel a game that is in almost every way a king's field title, was improved upon by SCEJ saying "here's some money, make this game"?

Really?Do you think that SCEJ's involvement was only about the funding?If it is so then why the last Armored Core games turned out like shit?

 

[°°ToMmY°°]

maybe the "no sequel" response comes from the fact that from is busy with project dark right now and when that's done they could work together on a sequel to demon's souls...

 

[Noshino]

Nah. You can't protect game mechanics through copyright and we'd already know about any patents related to the game system implementations in Demon's Souls. There shouldn't be pretty much anything stopping From from using any or all DS mechanics they're interested in carrying over.

I might be mistaken, but I think you are wrong. Nintendo has patented game play mechanics, such as the "sanity meter" from Eternal Darkness, and their claim is pretty broad:

A video game and game system incorporating a game character's sanity level that is affected by occurrences in the game such as encountering a game creature or gruesome situation. A character's sanity level is modified by an amount determined based on a character reaction to the occurrence such as taking a rest or slowing game progress and/or an amount of character preparation. That is, if a character is prepared for the particular occurrence, the occurrence may have little or no affect on the character's sanity level. As the character's sanity level decreases, game play is effected such as by controlling game effects, audio effects, creating hallucinations and the like. In this context. the same game can be played differently each time it is played.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...50&s1=6935954.PN.&OS=PN/6935954&RS=PN/6935954

 

[Canova]

maybe the "no sequel" response comes from the fact that from is busy with project dark right now and when that's done they could work together on a sequel to demon's souls...

not possible. Sony would not ask From Soft to make Demon's Souls 2

That would be conflict of interest. Project Dark and Demon's Souls will be in direct competition.

 

[John Rabbit]

but no i haven't played King's Field.

Really?Do you think that SCEJ's involvement was only about the funding?If it is so then why the last Armored Core games turned out like shit?

the first bolded statement answers the second one. stop basing arguments on complete assumptions (SCEJ filing patents on gameplay mechanics) and perhaps familiarize yourself with the legacy that demon's souls comes from before making boneheaded statements.

youtube videos of the last king's field game and then take another look at demon's souls. they quite obviously come from the same creative space. miyazaki(from) and kashii(SCEJ) decided not to produce a continuation of the KF series since the lore of that universe wouldn't allow for some of the mechanics they wanted to use (assumedly the souls and world tendency stuff). everything that makes demon's souls the game that it is are ideas that from has used in previous titles, or very clearly comes from the same conceptual pool.

 

[guidop]

How is it going to play if they did magically sue From for patent infringement? Wonderfully i bet

If it wasn't an exclusive i don't think people would care, they would be happy for From

 

[RustyNails]

GIVE SPARKLY, ME! GIVE TWINKLY SPARKLY!

 

[sublimit]

the first bolded statement answers the second one. stop basing arguments on complete assumptions (SCEJ filing patents on gameplay mechanics) and perhaps familiarize yourself with the legacy that demon's souls comes from before making boneheaded statements.

youtube videos of the last king's field game and then take another look at demon's souls. they quite obviously come from the same creative space. miyazaki(from) and kashii(SCEJ) decided not to produce a continuation of the KF series since the lore of that universe wouldn't allow for some of the mechanics they wanted to use (assumedly the souls and world tendency stuff). everything that makes demon's souls the game that it is are ideas that from has used in previous titles, or very clearly comes from the same conceptual pool.

I give up with your reasoning.
If you think that just by playing one game qualifies you to make bold statements like pretending "knowing" who did what inside a studio that you don't know shit about then yeah,go ahead by all means.

 

[charlequin]

You work for SCEJ?

Patents are public and filed for before a product is released; that's how the system works. If Demon's Souls is out on the market (it is) and there isn't a publicly available patent on a system within the game (there isn't) then none of the systems in the game is protected by patent law nor will any of them become patentable in the future.

There's no way Sony can patent the game mechanics, even if they want to. Imagine what would happen if someone patented online matchmaking lobbys or sniper score zoom for FPS games.

As long as it is (wrongly and unfortunately, in my own opinion) true that software patents are permitted, there are elements of game design that would probably qualify as "game systems" which are patentable under the law -- but regardless, this is actually done fairly rarely in the realm of games specifically and it definitely, 100% does not apply in this case.

I might be mistaken, but I think you are wrong. Nintendo has patented game play mechanics, such as the "sanity meter" from Eternal Darkness, and their claim is pretty broad:

You just quoted a patent which is exactly what I said you can use to protect game mechanics.

 

[Noshino]

You just quoted a patent which is exactly what I said you can use to protect game mechanics.

My apologies Mr Charlequin, I always confuse copyright, patent, and trademark :lol