Sorry, I don't post often. Should have quoted it.
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Destiny's raids will not support online matchmaking with random players.
- Thread starter sjay1994
- Start date
KillerDark
Member
You can definitely tell the difference from posters who have played raids before and those who haven't. It seems that everyone who is crying foul over this thinks that they'll always find a good PUG to play with. Even getting simple dungeons done in WoW is an exercise in futility.
Hell let them turn on matchmaking in Destiny. I want to see people eat crow thinking that they'll easily beat a raid. I had a hell of a time just finding people smart enough to fire at the legs on the strike miniboss. I can't count the number of times my group had 2 morons run up to the mech and try to blast him down toe-to-toe.
Opening up the raids to everyone through matchmaking will be a complete clusterfuck. Those who don't believe that are deluded. If you truly want to see what those of us who are ok with this raid, go into WoW and try to get a decent group together for a raid or even a heroic. Good luck
The hardest part of WoW raids were coordinating enough people to show up and do their roles without messing up. The vast majority of the mechanics in WoW raids were easy but the average player was bad. Despite that, LFR is a thing and it works great to allow people to see the content. What's so bad about having that?
So much elitism in this topic its hilarious.
TriniTrin
war of titties grampa
No one knows what's so bad about having the option. It's just a bunch of raid elitists and bungie defenders that don't want a matchmaking option. None of them have come up with a compelling reason WHY the OPTION for matchmaking damages the raid game mode in some way.
Also, the social system for an mmo should be set up so it's intuitive and easy to group up with random people if you want. The communication and social system in Destiny do not seem that great from what we've seen.
KillerDark
Member
This would be great, Destiny definitely needs something along those lines if Bungie isn't going to include MM
These are not standard raids, these are 6 man raids... You dont need the level of preparation by comparison. I'm having a very hard time buying into the idea that 6 man raids are going to be something where you have to find 6 people who are just on the same page, specially for a skill based game. Raids are hard because finding 10-40 people who can pay attention in MMO's is a harder task, not due to content, really.
Oh the part about wasting time with try-outs in raids vs elsewhere... what I'm saying is, at this point, end-game, you'll have already "wasted this time" prior to ever getting to the point where you can attempt a raid. The 1000's of randoms you come across... some of those will be players who you've teamed up with on raids, in PvP, etc... you've joined them on fireteams for strikes, etc... prior to ever reaching a raid. Those are the guys you want to keep on your friends list for future, harder, strikes.. higher level PvP matches, and eventually... raids.
Most people are assuming their FL today is what it will look like come time to do a raid and they're saying "I don't have that many friends! I have to have randoms help me!" What about playing the game for several months... time you couldn't play a raid anyways. Don't you think you'll come across a few "randoms" during that time who you will later spend a lot of time in-game with who you'll want to bring along with you when you eventually can attempt a raid?
You have no idea what kind of preparation is needed. Agreed I would assume 40 people would be tackling something much more "difficult" by comparison, but you also have to consider when you only have 6 people, more is riding on every single person to do exactly the right thing at the right time. You don't know what those requirements will be in these raids yet.
KillerDark
Member
What about cases where you have 2+ friends who play the game so you really won't ever see randoms throughout the majority of the game? It is still going to boil down to finding randoms to fill out the rest of the group.
Agreed completely on both points. This wouldn't be as much of an issue if Destiny actually had good (or any) social systems/communication built into the game, but unfortunately its completely lacking (based off the beta).
I don't follow. Are you saying, you'll always roll with a fireteam of 3 and thus you'll never meet any other players along the way?
StUnNeR H2K
Member
Then those friends you make through strikes will be your friends for raids. I'm under the impression nobody is hitting 20 and doing a raid (or completing it at least). The message I'm getting from all this is they want raids to be a positive experience, and the difficulty is high enough that random players won't get the job done. Random players going into a raid experience and failing miserably would send a bad message that the content is to difficult or broken, and players might walk away from the game. Forcing people to communicate and work together will create more positive experiences, and help create a better social environment.
Really none of us can say this is a good thing or bad thing, just speculate. Later this year we will all find out if no matchmaking was a good decision or a bad decision. Bungie is riding on that it is the right decision and I agree from my past experience in games with difficult raid content.
KillerDark
Member
Exactly that. I play with my wife and best friend online. (We even have a 4th we know will be getting the game that we have no clue what to do with... Thanks for that seemingly arbitrary 3 player limit Bungie) We have been playing shooters and co-op games together for years. We will be playing Strike/Story/Free roam together to get to the end game. But once we're there, surprise, we're boned. Thanks based Bungie.
lol well I mean if you ALWAYS play with the same 2 people, never play alone, they never play alone, never play any 6 player modes, never meet anyone in explore modes or PvP... I...Yep, that's correct
I guess you're shit out of luck.
Jest Chillin
Member
Scenario 2b: You queue up to fill with two randoms. Clear the trash up to the first boss. Wipe due to lack of communication. Random 1 drops group. Queue up to fill the spot. Random 3 comes in, sees that you wiped on the first boss and drops. Queue up again.. Random 4 comes in and sticks around. Beat the first boss. Clear trash and beat the second boss. Random 2 gets the loot he's looking for and drops group. Queue up again... etc..
Scenario 3: As you play throughout the game and use matchmaking for Strikes and Crucible, you take note of players you perform well with and add them for future Strike runs and eventually Raids, since Bungie has told you ahead of time that you'll need 6 people that you manually group with. By the time you reach the point where you want to Raid.. you have a large list of people on your friends list that you know can perform reasonably that you can ask to join group with you.
You don't get to see anyone perform before they're matchmade with you. They're just random people dropped into your group. You know literally nothing about them including their class or their build. Things that can be very important in Raids.
I'm not saying that it's rare to pick up randoms to fill out a group. I'm saying it was rare to succeed with PUGs until WoW put in an easier difficulty.
And while LFR may have increased the raw numbers of Raiders, WoW's overall population has lowered since it's introduction. A coincidence I'm sure, but still relevant when you're suggesting that more Raiders = more Players. It's also worth noting that WoW reached it's popularity height before LFR was introduced despite most players not Raiding. They did so due to having a myriad of other activities for players of all varieties to do. Destiny won't have as many other activities as WoW obviously but they do have other Endgame options and have said they plan on actively facilitating special events and things of that nature for the players. Iron Banner is an example of such as it's not one of the normal Crucible modes.
The thing here is that people who are arguing against Matchmaking are not saying that Bungie is perfect. Just that they have the only perspective that is informed by 100% factual information as they've designed and play tested the content. Those arguing for matchmaking are working off of assumptions and quite a few don't have any experience with Raids of any kind to contextualize Bungie's design overall.
It's like telling someone who has never had Mochi that you're going to give them Ice Cream they should eat with their hands, and they reject the idea immediately.
The randoms you play with earlier are people that you would be experiencing content with when there is less demand on performance. Playing strikes with them gives you an impression of their playstyle and ability, allowing you to have some control over the people you choose to match yourself with later in Raids, when it really matters.
So to weigh in with a valid opinion we need to post our raid credentials, what if we do and still think there should be matchmaking anyway? Perhpas the people crying foul are willing to put up with possibly shitty groups for the added convenience. And the idea that getting ordinary dungeons done in WoW is "an exercise in futility" is laughable.
DomsPlaying
Member
Very interesting, seems like a design decision to not allow match-making for Raids rather than technological limitations. I tend to agree that I would prefer optional match-making but this won't prevent me from buying the game not by a long shot.
Though these Raids appear to be the main "end-game" content they are offering in order to earn legendary loot and rare items, so some folks could be turned off by no match-making functionality. Here's hoping my DestinyGAF application is approved, then can look forward to tackling these bad-ass 6-person Raids!
Though these Raids appear to be the main "end-game" content they are offering in order to earn legendary loot and rare items, so some folks could be turned off by no match-making functionality. Here's hoping my DestinyGAF application is approved, then can look forward to tackling these bad-ass 6-person Raids!
StUnNeR H2K
Member
It may be a big part of the "end-game", but this is the way they want to manage it. They could easily put in a matchmaking system, and I'm sure they could make it work but they would have to turn down the difficulty of the content (making an assumption here based on what they have said). They want content that is so difficult that it requires some pre-coordination/work to accomplish. This is what raiding is about. They might change their view later down the line or after release, but I'm all for harder content if it means picking up five random players won't cut it. Nothing is making this content inaccessible you just have to put in some effort for it.
Also if the raids do take 2 - 3 hrs to complete... Every "random" group will dissolve before it is ever finished.
It doesnt matter if I've done them or not, there is a reason MMO's design raid content around 20+ people, it takes longer to clear. If MMO's were build around 4-6 man content, content would be cleared a lot faster because it's much easier to find 4-6 people who can pay attention to simple tasks. Outside of giving us Ikaruga like difficulty or giving us "Legendary" like difficulty there isnt a MMO raid mechanic out there that wouldnt be easier with only 4-6 people to worry about(specially without a typical trinity system). I mean reall, what raid mechanics in the game(outside of gear checks) could they use that would make it comparable to getting 20 people who are not morons together? And your arguement of the 6 people mattering more? Ya, there it isnt near as hard, there is a reason MMO's design their content around large groups.
You keep saying it's elitism, when it's clearly not from my stand point. I've done matchmaking in WoW and I can't think of a single time in the years I've played WoW that I had fun with randoms. There are the quitters, the leeroy jenkins fools, the people who just got ilvl and have no idea what to do with their class, etc etc.
I'm all for everyone playing raids and there should be an easier way to get a group together in Destiny, but from my personal experience I would rather have it walled off at the beginning so people you group with will more than likely communicate and actually try. I'm extremely cynical when it comes to playing with randoms because there is always someone there who has no clue what to do or does know what to do but doesn't care. Now add in K/D ratios and you'll get those lone wolf youtube wannabe CoD gods who don't play the objective and just want to get kills. Hell it was already like that in the beta. I don't want to deal with that when someone aggros a huge group when the rest of the raid group is doing something else.
Sorry but you've never once had a random group who died constantly from not doing their job? I find that hard to believe. Maybe you were just extremely lucky on your server. The one I was on was not like that.
I'm all for matchmaking later on after the raids(s) have been tuned appropriately. I highly doubt the raid environment will be done well before the end of the year. Let it be how it is right now and then later on Bungie can open up the raids to matchmaking once they know from their server data what needs to be tuned to make it better for a PUG.
Moon_frogger
Member
There's nothing good about this. People are assuming that handling the matchmaking this way somehow guarantees quality content but it doesn't at all. It's just another barrier to entry. I've played lots of mmos with good and bad randoms but taking away the option does not automatically mean they will suddenly have this awesome, challenging group oriented content. It just means less people will get to experience it. Guaranteed these raids will bs figured out, exploited immediately and within 2 months they will be a cakewalk for the majority of players. Without someone sort of matchmaking nobody will be playing Anythjng but the newest content and the game will die. Bungie is making the wrong choice.
You don't get to see people play while dancing at the tower or typing of forums either. How is that the better option?
Matchmaking is the SAME DAMN THING as DestinyGAF. DestinyGAF is a smattering of 1000+ gamers of different skill levels and abilities. You will then tap into that pool of 1000+ users to form a party to go raiding.
Well holy shit, that sounds a heck of a lot like Matchmaking, just with more hoops to jump through.
And what if these are nothing like typical MMO raids in terms of the challenges they present?
MADGAME
Member
I certainly don't know what the final content will entail but it will be interesting to see how similar (if at all) Destiny raiding is compared to WoW, given the number of references to it in this thread. I've never played WoW so I can't comment on that, but based on what I heard in the IGN vids it sounds like classes (tanks, dps, etc) aren't applicable and everyone's job is to "shoot guys". Will communication and coordination be necessary? Sounds like a definite but probably not nearly as intricate organization and planning as what is needed for WoW, although that remains to be seen.
Trickster
Member
Many people would argue that LFR is a terrible thing. It's essentially is a raid, without all the things that make raids fun and rewarding to do. Given it's complete lack of overall challenge and requiring anything from 90% of the people in a LFR raid, combined with it being far and away the quickest and easiest way of getting gear on new characters. Then it's popularity isn't surprising, it appeals completely to human nature of taking the easy path whenever available.
If Blizzard were to change loot rewards to properly reflect the time and effort required to do LFR. Then it's popularity would plummet overnight.
K
kittens
Unconfirmed Member
I still don't see what the big deal is. Games have content that's difficult to access all the time. They're supposed to require effort and skill. And Destiny isn't even the first game to require players to go outside of the game to coordinate or accomplish a challenge. Far from it. So... What's everyone freaking out over?
Wow isnt comparable though or most MMO's. MMO raids required large coordination and finding 20-40 people who could follow mundane tasks(which in MMO's is really hard). In a skill based game it's not going to be as much of an issue, since the whole point of FPS's is paying attention to your surroundings. MMO's have trained a generation of... lets call them geniuses who cant figure-out how to stand out of fire, thanks to healers and good tanks keeping them alive, FPS games you are trained to keep yourself alive.
I very much doubt it would just be too hard to finish with matchmaking, when you only need 6 people and most of them will have mics.
There isnt much they can do that we have not seen in FPS's or MMO's, dude. Like I said, unless they just throw legendary difficulty things at you, there isnt really anything that can make 6 man content comparable to 20-40 man content. And if their strikes are any indication of difficulty, then the game is not that hard even based on other FPS games.
The leveling up to get to the raid is supposed to require effort and skill. The Raid is supposed to require effort and skill. Not making a party because there is no matchmaking.
Congrats. Yours is easily the worst argument I've read in here yet.
"Never once" is pretty different from a categorical statement that doing them is an exercise in futility. But the shitty runs were a price I was willing to pay for the ease of dungeonfinder as opposed to stalling in chat trying to get a group together.
Trickster
Member
You...you really have no understanding of the difficulty jump a raid normal entails from the rest of the content in a game, do you?
Perhaps you can explain it to me with all your hands on experience. No, not with Wow raids, with Desitny Raids. With FPS raids. With this Raid.
Also, how does my statement reflect your response? I was stating the challenge is in the Raid, not in spending hours on forums making your party.
Like I said, it depends on what server you're on. The one I was on was an entire exercise in futility. That is until they changed how it worked across servers. I left not too long after that though because playing with randoms sucked so much. I'll probably be back once the expansion hits though. WoW crack
Sounds like we should close this thread up until the game comes out since none of us really have any idea if this is a good thing or bad thing.
K
kittens
Unconfirmed Member
Thank you, it's an honor. But again, why shouldn't creating a party require effort? This isn't the first time a game has done this.
Outside of Wildstar, I'm not sure what raid mechanics you find exponentially difficult? Raids are hard because it's hard to find 20+ people who can pay attention and who have good enough gear. The actual mechanics in a MMO are not anything harder then in other video games(in fact, imo, raids are a bit easier in terms of understanding what is actually needed), the difficulty is gear checks and weeding out inept players with their inability to pay attention to fairly simple tasks.
I guess this is where the discussion ends. If you're telling me you know what Bungie can and can't do... I can't argue with that.
Yea, not standing in the goo and having DPS checks on bosses sure make things hard./s I'm not sure why you're drawing comparisons to traditional MMO raids when a 6 person
FPS raids will need be drastically different, more so when you consider there is no trinity mechanic of the party to balance around.
Couldn't that have been solved with better matchmaking and a better screening process to enter matchmaking in the first place?
I mean since it's basically what a lot of GAF is going to do anyways it would have been nice to set a flag for RAID matchmaking within clans.
Ivory Samoan
Gold Member
Heavy pre-requisite bound MM would work.
Level 20 tick
Headset tick
Minimum 1 Exotic Equipped tick
*insert number here* Light Level tick
...if you try and enter the matchmaking without even one of those requisite levels/things done, you get a rejection explaining why you cannot enter matchmaking for raids.
Thoughts?
Level 20 tick
Headset tick
Minimum 1 Exotic Equipped tick
*insert number here* Light Level tick
...if you try and enter the matchmaking without even one of those requisite levels/things done, you get a rejection explaining why you cannot enter matchmaking for raids.
Thoughts?
Trickster
Member
You were saying the guys argument was bad because "hey leveling also requires skill". That is a really poor argument that shows your lack of understanding of the challenge that raids normally present comparatively the the rest of the games they're in.
KillerDark
Member
Sorry, your last paragraph in the previous post came off that way to me.
I can understand that at least. There definitely will be some people like that, I completely agree. It is possible to find cool/good people from randoms though too. One of the best players I ever met on WoW was a random met during a MC raid in Classic... we played together through Mists. If you don't want to deal with that you don't have to use matchmaking, I guess I don't understand why you would want less options? Allow matchmaking (or some way to create a party specifically for raiding) for people who have no other way to experience it... if you don't want to use it you aren't required to.
I'm well aware of that, it still can be fun though. Yes its extremely dumbed down, but it at least lets people get a taste of it when most probably wouldn't otherwise. It also lets Blizzard design more raids because more of their player base will use it, which is a good thing. How would matchmaking being in Destiny actually hurt anyone? You can use it if you want or need to, but you don't have to if you don't want to.
I agree that it would be ideal to play with friends but I should still have the choice for convenience.
Jest Chillin
Member
So then you're asking for a complete overhaul of the current Matchmaking system in the month~ before launch so that players don't have to do anything but queue and wait for their group to be populated. And you don't see how that's even less social than what people are already claiming Destiny to be?
Except Destiny doesn't appear to be made like an MMO where the vast majority of content is just a quest given. Going to mess around in Explore mode would be fine for what you're suggesting but queuing for Raid while in a Strike or Story mission would be quite different from Queue for a raid while doing daily quests in an MMO.
You just told me that people can queue for Raids while they're doing other things.. yet every single console MP mode that has a queue/search requires people to sit in a lobby while the search is conducted and only pulls people who are doing the same. If it's such a simple task then why hasn't anyone made it possible to queue for MP while playing Campaign? It's probably entirely possible but my guess is, it's more trouble than it's worth.
I've said that in-game options need to be improved. The comment that you're responding to was in response to the suggestion that not everyone has a forum community to use. Everyone actually does as Bungie specifically redesigned their entire website to be used as such.
PvP challenge and matchmaking is inherently different than PvE. It's more difficult in some ways but less in others. PvE requires specific builds to compliment players as well as to counter the challenge presented by the content. In PvP, a player or team can be successful even with an inappropriate/subpar build by outplaying the other person. Human vs Human interaction leaves room for mistakes that can be forced and capitalized on. This isn't true of scripted encounters.
It's not the same thing as by talking to people you actually get information about them before you're running the content. You can find out how they like to play, what their class is, what they're build is.. what expectations/goals they have, etc... You literally get none of that information in a matchmade queue.
Queuing for a Strike and finding out that everyone is a Hunter with Sniper Rifles isn't that bad. Queing for a Raid and getting the same thing can be awful if the content requires Titan's Shield Super to survive a boss attack. Or damaging enemy shields requires Void elemental weapons/attacks but everyone placed in your party is Solar or Arc. Being able to learn this information before you start a Raid makes a big difference.
I understand, StUnNeR H2K. But the issue at hand is Destiny's apparent lack of in-game tools to form/join raid groups. People are suggesting matchmaking as a possible solution to that problem. I think it's okay to disagree with this suggestion but, regardless of this debate, the main problem (destiny's poor social interaction tools) is still there.
All we are saying is that something should be done to address it. And while I'd agree that public matchmaking may not be the best solution for raids (because of the reasons that you and others have pointed), I think having it as an option (even if only temporary) is better than doing absolutely nothing to address the aforementioned problem.
MADGAME
Member
There has been zero evidence that class specific abilities will be required. If no one has a Titan Defender subclass build in your example, then the Raid can't be completed, period. Info in the IGN vids stated they aren't doing "classes" in the traditional sense and everyone's job is to "shoot guys". Coordination and communication I'm sure will be critical, but assuming subclass requirements is premature speculation at this point and goes against the piecemeal we've received.
I guess you have more faith in their innovation then I do. I'm assuming they cant create this super difficulty mechanics, outside of just ramping up the gear check, based on raiding in a lot of MMO's and playing a lot of FPS games. You are assuming their innovation in this part justifies the lack of matchmaking, that's fine with me, but if this was Vegas I most definitely would be taking my odds.
No worries
I think I'm ok with it as it is right now because it will be extremely difficult to get a good group of randoms together. I really don't think the raid(s) will be tuned correctly for at least several months after the more hardcore players get into it. Bungie will tweak stuff in the raid. We all know they will. I firmly believe they'll open it up to matchmaking at some point, but just not at launch.
Admiral Woofington
Member
I can tell you right now that shit will be a whole lot better if you don't have 6 warlock support classes playing together.
Matchmaking should be an option imho but it isn't the end of the world if it's not included. A dedicated group and clan to find proper teammates, coordinate a time you can play together and things of the sort will go a long way.
I don't know what all the arguing is about. We should all.be able to agree that:
Locking out content from casual players is bad.
A raid being hard is a good thing.
Putting in a matchmaker for said hard content would allow for casuals to play said content even though their chances of success are slim.
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I mean during the beta and alpha match making for the strike gave me turrible players at time. I ended up beating the strike with 2 players twice. Other times they were both so bad we couldn't get through the beginning zone. Saying it's too hard isn't an excuse.
A matchmaker would only be a good thing.
Locking out content from casual players is bad.
A raid being hard is a good thing.
Putting in a matchmaker for said hard content would allow for casuals to play said content even though their chances of success are slim.
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I mean during the beta and alpha match making for the strike gave me turrible players at time. I ended up beating the strike with 2 players twice. Other times they were both so bad we couldn't get through the beginning zone. Saying it's too hard isn't an excuse.
A matchmaker would only be a good thing.
This stuff just makes a lot of sense, but imo, I think they are doing this to stretch out how long the content lasts. I think matching making it would teach players early on to what to expect from a raid and in turn people would adjust quickly, content would be cleared to fast. Making you use your friends list or have a pre-made makes it mroe time consuming, which I think is the goal. This is just my opinion, obviously, but it comes across that way to me.
MADGAME
Member
I agree from a strategy perspective variety of Guardian class and subclass will probably pay dividends in the raid, but I doubt there will be subclass requirements to complete them.
Trickster
Member
I understand why you and others make the argument "what would be bad about just the option?". And I agree that without context, the option doesn't hurt the game. But in reality what will happen with a matchmaking option for raids, is that pretty much every single group that tried out the raid via matchmaking would in all likelyhood be able to make no progress. At that point, all the matchmaking option would do is provide players with a bad experience, and alot of whining about raids being too hard and requiring nerfs.