Can't be worse than HR's vanilla boss fights, right? I only want to hear more about the level design in DX:MD (e.g. will it have more open ended levels, preferably with more variety) and this might very well surpass DX:HR, which was my favorite game (or 2nd/3rd favorite depending on my mood) of last generation.
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Deus Ex: Mankind Divided is completely ghostable, also during boss fights
- Thread starter Red Hood
- Start date
Can't be worse than HR's vanilla boss fights, right? I only want to hear more about the level design in DX:MD (e.g. will it have more open ended levels, preferably with more variety) and this might very well surpass DX:HR, which was my favorite game (or 2nd/3rd favorite depending on my mood) of last generation.
Regarding the camera style, I actually wouldn't mind if they used the 3rd person/over the shoulder perspective more then just when in cover. I actually like it more for walking around non-combat zones, makes you less some floating hands in the area and more part of it, somehow. I'd also be interested in a hybrid system like some Metal Gear Solid games where both the 1st person/3rd person view modde are an option.
My main request as well. Compared to the original it still felt like HR was too corridor focussed / areas were too small. Im assuming this was mostly an issue with regard to last gen console memory, so hopefully current gen allow for this.
Also, I hope there will be more room for going off the story path. HR had some nice choices such as
Waiting too long to save the hostages
the upgrade
Killing agent Navarre on Lebedev's plane
Then again, even minor upgrades to HRs formula will be great, still one of my favorite games last gen.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
They've talked about how the AI now has more diversity in equipment and their own augs, and if done right I think that'll go a long way towards deepening the challenge of stealth runs. I loved stealth in HR, but end of the day the similarities between all AI encounters and how you can approach them resulted in settling on an overpowered combination of augs and equipment and reusing it throughout the game. The AI never accommodated for your growth nor challenged you to adjust your play.
If the AI is capable of simply doing more, with greater diversity in their functions, then hopefully that will mean I can't simply crouch walk + cloak + stun gun absolutely everyone with ease.
MAX PAYMENT
Member
Does anyone else find it funny that you can walk into a boss arena and be like "Not doin it!" And walk around?
They did? That's great! I always found it a little odd how they wouldn't use their augs against you, like it was just cosmetic or something.
tringworldso
Member
Good. Adam will be the ultimate agent who will save the world without taking a single life.
And only hundreds of mooks in the hospital from getting their jaw caved in by titanium fists
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
This is a bizarre complaint to me. Literally none of the classic immersive sims/stealth games do you what you're talking about. Not System Shock 2, not any of the Deus Ex games, not the Thief series, not Dishonored, none of them. Every single one has their levels carefully "designed" to be sandboxes; they're not emergent and persistent through procedural generation.
Now, if you just mean that the design should be more open and organic, with fewer obvious routes through the levels, I can agree with you. This was one of the few ways where DXHR was a significant step down from Deus Ex 1. But you seem to be saying that this design style can't co-exist with ghostability, which is wrong. If the player has enough tools and the stealth system is flexible enough (both of which I don't have any concerns about, because DXHR already qualified), then it's not a problem.
People don't want to get oneshot by a hitscan gun in the first level.
I suspect it might be a combination of what people expect how games play (and guide them through the game) and that making (stealth) games hard but fair with tons of options is really difficult for the level designers. Not saying the level designers got worse, but if you have to combine having tons of options that are all equally viable with keeping the game approachable to newcomers, it's really hard to find a middle ground.
tringworldso
Member
What is this even... ghosting through the game is a challenge. Go through it without knocking out a single enemy, not alerting anyone, not tripping any alarm. Of course I'd like a bigger reward for that because it takes time (and many a time reloading) rather than going guns blazing which gives lesser xp and takes a lesser time as well. It's up to you entirely how you want to play in the end.
Hehe... I'm considering ghosting through the game again but not sure how well it'll work with the upgraded AI. Previous AI I could game by stacking boxes in their line of sight and performing illegal actions lol.And only hundreds of mooks in the hospital from getting their jaw caved in by titanium fists
At least in DX:HR I think you can knock out enemies and still get the 'Ghost' XP bonus for the level. They just mustn't see you. I knocked out plenty of enemies (more XP...) and still got Foxiest of Hounds. I think you can also have enemies go into 'alarmed' state and still get Ghost, but I'm not sure about that. Would be interesting if they introduced an extra challenge where you aren't allowed to take anyone out at all.
Yup, since there's a couple of plot driven Alarmed states. They have to push the alarm button on the wall for it to count.
DarkConfidant
Member
Same here. I also tried the no kill route, and that made you susceptible to bosses (whom you had to kill), as one who wants to be stealthy and nonlethal only had 3 weapons with which to do so. Because I only had three weapons, I never upgraded my inventory to carry more than that, nor did I carry any lethal weapons.
The second any boss battle began, I had to dump my entire inventory into the floor, and run for my life, as I attempted to scoop up am assault rifle.
probably, I wanted so bad to just murder everything in HR but since you got more exp for going stealth I couldn't help but stealth the game even the second time. not cool!!! My need to lvl up exceeded my need to shoot to kill. haha.
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
I don't get this argument at all.
Many games punish or reward you based on play-style or decisions. Your decisions do become more meaningless if they have no consequences.
It makes perfect sense that the game would reward you for taking the time to be stealthy and not kill every human being you come across. I don't do ghost play-style, and never once did I feel forced to do so for extra XP. The game gives you plenty of XP just playing a mixed play-style.
Kill or ghost when you think it is appropriate. I killed who I had to, knocked out who I could, avoided some all together. Never once did grinding XP cross my mind.
Bioshock punished you for harvesting little sisters by giving you less total adam, but more right off the bat. and many games give you extra XP for certain things like headshots and whatnot.
Absolutely no reason they should be equal XP play styles.
D
Deleted member 102362
Unconfirmed Member
Missing Link boss fight gives me plenty of confidence they'll get it right this time.
that's why I loved MGS4. ghosting that game was fantastic and you never thought about needing more exp to upgrade a certain skill. I love both games its just a pet peeve for people who like to max out the characters attributes. Especially when you know that by the end of the game you will not have everything. Some skills completely changing the game. I guess second play through!!
You mean
Burke
Burke
D
Deleted member 102362
Unconfirmed Member
See, that would be cool, too.
afternoon delight
Member
I wonder how many games have claimed this before release. I'm especially wary after HR.
Ghosting by itself was not the issue or anything like that, rather:
That the player got rewarded for backtracking to knockout everyone after ghosting the area.
Icyflamez96
Member
And only hundreds of mooks in the hospital from getting their jaw caved in by titanium fists
Can't you get through without engaging the enemies at all? (except the bosses of course)
Was the missing link boss along the lines of the directors cut bosses, or better?
Icyflamez96
Member
dp
Fiery Phoenix
Banned
Isn't that usually how it's done in stealth-heavy games, though?
Stealth is supposedly harder/requires more skill than guns-blazing, so it's naturally more rewarding.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
Ideally this wouldn't be the case though, not in an RPG, where the choice between guns blazing or stealth is less about difficulty and more about the role you decide to play. Your choice should resonate with the game world for sure, but rewards/consequences should manifest in story and how encounters develop.
In an RPG where XP is the most valuable economy, HR is a bit broken by over rewarding pacifist stealth. It's a domino effect; stealth is already fairly easy, and if you chose that path you rack up XP quicker than any other, resulting in faster acquisition of augs and equipment that further reduces the difficulty of stealth. It unfairly punishes the combat path which is just as reliant on augs and equipment to do well, but evolves a lot slower. In short, there's basically zero reason to play lethal combat over pacifist stealth.
In my opinion, the Director's Cut boss fights were merely extra ways of finding ammo and some little new ways of dealing lethal force. Nothing explicitly stealthy or non-lethal. The Missing Link's battle was considerably better in my opinion. Though I'd say that was one of the very few redeeming aspects of The Missing Link compared to the excellent whole of DX:HR.
The thing with this specific boss fight in TML was that shit starts getting down with lots of soldiers and some bots. You conveniently start near cover and from there on out you can either take cover and shoot them all, or remain undetected from that point onwards, ghosting all the way through this specific end boss and killing him/knocking him out unseen.
Basically what I'd really like Mankind Divided to do is somehow triggering the boss fight without being seen by him/her (maybe setting off an alarm prior to the battle will alarm the boss and otherwise not?), and then being able to kill or knock them out unseen.
Icyflamez96
Member
Huh. Interesting. On my last playthrough of the game a few months ago, (first playthrough of DC, 4th or 5th playthrough of HR in general) I got up to the DLC, and thought it was very good. I didn't finish it though because at one point I stopped going stealthy and start killing which made it feel like I cheapened the experience of the whole DLC so I stopped playing lol. I'm playing through the DC again now atm so I'll be there soon.
It's not that The Missing Link objectively sucked, because it didn't objectively suck, I just thought it didn't have added value to the bigger whole of DX:HR. It's just... there. It felt, and was, basically nothing more than a side quest. There is some little information/depth regarding the main story, but that felt very shoehorned to me.
The article is misrepresenting what he actually said. He was responding to a question on Twitter asking if the game would have something like BioShock Infinite's 1999 Mode. He said Give Me Deus Ex was their equivalent, but that it would be a little different.
Messofanego
Banned
Good point. As someone who when given the option to be stealthy in a game, will do only that, I can still understand the frustration for combat build players since it's an RPG especially promising open choices. No wonder developers don't make many immersive sims, there's so much to account for compared to other RPGs.
I'm not sure I understand: you don't have to backtrack, you can just take them out, and as long as they didn't see you and nobody finds them, that still counts as ghosting in terms of the XP reward. Or do you mean that you first ghost the area, and then go back guns blazing when there are too many guards to stealthily take them out one by one?
I have to admit though that I sometimes go out of my way to knock someone out when I could just have sneaked past them because I wanted the XP (and any possible credits and pocket secretaries).
He probably meant that he feels kinda forced to knock-out every single enemy in a level so he doesn't feel like he misses out on EXP. Can't say I disagree with him. I hope they leave take-down bonuses (be it lethal or non-lethal) out completely and basically return to an objective-based EXP system like the original.
Though I do want them to keep the Ghost and Smooth Operator bonuses.
Solid Raiden
Neo Member
I too felt compelled to get max exp by knocking out every enemy and going through levels every possible way due to the system they had set up. I didn't complain though, because I didn't mind finding every possible way through a level and how it compared to my initial method. Still, I'd prefer they revamp the system and I can try different methods on subsequent playthroughs.
HR Director's Cut got me hyped for going back to original Deus Ex.
Is that a preferred approach for the classic one also?
Icyflamez96
Member
I'm glad they seem to be revamping the energy system. I got really fed up with how it was handled in HR. It made upgrading the amount of max energy bars you had almost worthless.
DOWN
Banned
I think most games design for ghosting with the idea that ghosting just means no one saw you and things can basically return to normal after you've left in canon, but you are allowed to interact with them. So it is often necessary to knock someone out and hack up a storm which leaves a trace, but don't kill or be seen doing it.
KyanMehwulfe
Member
for me the main thing is that the ghosting has as much freedom as a firefight...
so, not just a go to X, press Y, use Z and this linear order let's you remain unrecognized or unidentified... but rather, multiple free roaming ways to do so... pure stealth, using illusions or misdirection... political alliances or conversational tricks... hacking... et cetera
so, not just a go to X, press Y, use Z and this linear order let's you remain unrecognized or unidentified... but rather, multiple free roaming ways to do so... pure stealth, using illusions or misdirection... political alliances or conversational tricks... hacking... et cetera
Riposte
Member
I don't know why some people make it sound like stealth is harder than shooting your way out. That's rarely true unless stealth means leaving enemies completely untouched (IIRC this was less rewarding). All it does is take longer and require busywork where the difficulty decreases sharply over time. (Ideally, stealth would get harder the longer you stay somewhere, but whatever.)
That's great news! I don't think I've read that yet, where did you read this?