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[Enduin]

I kind of wonder if the relatively short port time from the Wii U to Switch and likelihood that they had to do some really crazy wizard shit to get this thing working at all on the Wii U lead to them simply not being able to optimize the game's engine for the Switch. So there's a lot of really specific Wii U coding and elements there to squeeze the life out of that system which just is a liability on the Switch.

The big knock to this idea though is the fact that only Docked mode seems affected. Portable runs almost perfectly fine and far better than the Wii U besides. So what is it about a modest resolution bump, not even to 1080 which the system specs seem specifically designed for, causes such issues.

MK8 obviously has a whole lot less going on, but they were still able to go full 1080p 60fps locked, unlike on Wii U which was only 720p 59.9FPS(or whatever it was) and with 2 players with then a reduction to 30fps for 3+ players. It's confusing.

Could the physics be taxing the CPU so much that it creates a bottleneck there? But would that really limit resolution and framerate? Shouldn't that still fall to the GPU, which should be able to account for both.

 

[Skulldead]

I'm surprise to heard : "Better get news soon for a patch". patch what ?

720p in dock mode ?

Remove Effect in 900p ?

Correct dock overclocking mode ? If this is the case this is a serious Nintendo fail.

 

[Socivol]

Just started watching this myself. So much shimmering, Christ. Nintendo needs to discover anti-aliasing, stat.

I've never understood why people say this game looks so good. The aliasing is terrible in this game.

 

[tomwhite2004]

Except the GPU clock increase in docked mode theoretically means it should be able to up the resolution while keeping the same level of performance. For some godforsaken reason that's not happening. Memory bandwidth seems the most likely culprit, which means this console (handheld) is gonna be shit for resolutions over 720p.

Could also explain why the digital foundry splatoon video was shown running 720p in both docked and portable mode.
If there really is a memory bandwidth issue then extra gpu speed in docked mode is essentially worthless.

 

[Rodin]

Yeah, I am sure it is indeed great. That is not in dispute. But I still think that it gets more leeway because it is a darling and that is where I am going to leave it.

At any rate, moving on. The only interest I had in Switch was it's ability as a home console. It fails on every front compared to the competition and is even more expensive.

It fails because of a wii u launch port?

So it succeeds when Mario Kart 8D drops?

I kind of wonder if the relatively short port time from the Wii U to Switch and likelihood that they had to do some really crazy wizard shit to get this thing working at all on the Wii U lead to them simply not being able to optimize the game's engine for the Switch.

The big knock to this idea though is the fact that only Docked mode seems affected. Portable runs almost perfectly fine and far better than the Wii U besides. So what is it about a modest resolution bump, not even to 1080 which the system specs seem specifically designed for, causes such issues.

MK8 obviously has a whole lot less going on, but they were still able to go full 1080p 60fps locked and with 2 players with then a reduction to 30fps for 3+ players. It's confusing.

Could the physics be taxing the CPU so much that it creates a bottleneck there? But would that really limit resolution and framerate? Shouldn't that still fall to the GPU, which should be able to account for both.

Like i said sounds very likely to me that they weren't able to properly optimize bandwidth usage due to the vastly different RAM configuration compared to wii u .

 

[NESpowerhouse]

Is it too late to cancel my pre-order? The UPS guy is out for delivery now.

Spoiler

JK, I'm not that petty.

Spoiler

For real though, I cancelled my Switch preorder a little while ago once I figured out that I wouldn't be able to afford it.

 

[DJwest]

How's the Wii U version?

 

[Yautja_Warrior]

Docked framerate looks pretty similar to what I've been getting on the Wii U version. Definitely playing in handheld mode, now I've got my Switch.

 

[Equanimity]

I've never understood why people say this game looks so good. The aliasing is terrible in this game.

Art style

 

[Guymelef]

I'll be playing the Wii U version so hopefully the framerate there isn't so bad it kills me.

I've bad news for you.

 

[big fake]

If Fallout 4 was called Zelda and had bombs and shit it'd be at 98 right?

Come on dude, a game in todays review landscape getting a 93+ meta is hard, a 98 with performance issues like this is not something to just look over. 98 is a huge leap from the median review scores of the gen. It is a pretty big anomaly, and I DON'T doubt its a fantastic game, likely the top 3 games of the gen, but shit like this really irks me. Last Guardian is a fantastic game, my GOTY last year but it was pushed down by its performance issues on base PS4 hardware. It's a double standard to a certain degree. Not trying to drain hype from Zelda, but Its nice to have reasoning and equality in reviews.

EDIT: Just as you see, I don't care for framerate as much as others do, I would live with it to experience the game. My TLDR is that I wish there was equality with reviewers when it comes to these things.

 

[mindatlarge]

Played for 3 or 4 hours last night in docked mode and noticed a couple drops here and there, but nothing that lasted for long or jumped out at me as game breaking. Guess it depends how important this sort of thing is to you, hope it does get patched for those that really care.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

And Witcher 3 before being patched. And all Souls games. And all Bethesda games. And most of the PS360 games. Plus, those sweet game breaking glitches.
But this got one point too much on metacritic so we should all agree that there is some Zelda bias in gaming journalism.

Pretty much this. The double standards are so transparent I wonder how some posters can even complain about performance with a straight face. This isn't even defending it, just pointing out how the same people okay with the performance of those games suddenly care about framerate with a game they probably have no interest in buying anyway

 

[Raguel]

this dude's talking about common sense but you can tell he hasn't read a single one of the reviews

because almost every one of them mentions the framerate as something they were able to overlook

but

yknow

#commonsense

Hah yeah. Some of the knee jerk reactions here is just glorious. And christ, I'm getting real tired of these frame rate purists/whiners. I've played games since the NES and frame rates never bothered me. Playing GTA IV with its shoddy frame rates never bothered me. Playing the Witcher 3 with is hit or miss frame rates never bothered me. It's like the can't grasp that sure, drops in frame rates are abboying, but if it's not detrimental to the game, then it's not an issue. Just like what almost every reviewer has said about this game. Some of you seems like you just want to attack Nintendo and Zelda. It's ridiculous.

 

[Huge Succeeded]

Just Cause 3, as an example.

I remember the reviews noting how obtrusive Just Cause 3's performance issues were.
just as I recall several Zelda reviews noting how Zelda's performance issues can also be obtrusive.
The difference being that apparently there's a profoundly well built and engaging video game propping up Zelda, despite its performance issues.
Just Cause 3 ain't that game to me. It's an extremely shallow playground, and even if it had zero performance issues I don't think it would have reviewed as well as Just Cause 2 did. (and I enjoy Just Cause 3 fwiwi)

 

[sixteen-bit]

I hope they'll patch the docked version for better stability.

 

[hodgy100]

How's the Wii U version?

i would say the same framerate as switch docked but at 720p

 

[Easy_D]

Art style

Yeah the art is soo good. Well realised too. Jaggies suck but meh, not the biggest issue. I say this as someone who creamed his pants repeatedly over the incredibly IQ in DOOM, never seen a game that smooth.

I guess it's all about tempering your expectations, hard to get disappointed when you know what to expect.

 

[Aostia]

This is fucking unacceptable. Get your shit together, Nintendo.

what I find unacceptable are comments like this.
this game has been reviewed by MANY major outlets as a MASTERPIECE, and they played the same game that has some issue performances
the reason why I really don't get along with DF isn't because of what they do, but because of reactions from people
the game IS GREAT, even visually, not for me but for everyone, expect those who prey tech over everything else

this is my opinion, you can find it unacceptable of course, but the line of thoughs for which Zelda BotW in unacceptable is what ruined the industry for me in the last years

 

[Ac30]

I'm surprise to heard : "Better get news soon for a patch". patch what ?

720p in dock mode ?

Remove Effect in 900p ?

Correct dock overclocking mode ? If this is the case this is a serious Nintendo fail.

They said it's probably a streaming issue which makes no sense as it's running fine undocked. This us probably patchable and a bug with the docked mode.

 

[Shifty1897]

Nah, the "2017" thing is obnoxious. Framerate has never been tied to whatever year it is. We are going to have 20 fps games on PS6 trying to push out 8k pixels decades from now.

DON'T YOU PUT THAT CURSE ON ME RICKY BOBBY

 

[Raysoul]

I heard from a friend that changing the Switch' output mode to 720p increases the performance on docked. Can somebody also test it?

Bumping my question just in case...

 

[Jarmel]

It's a hugely ambitious game running a on tight hardware budget, I don't think Nintendo need to feel too embarrassed about it. With better optimisation solutions for the new hardware it's bound to improve in the long term.

The dozens of journalists who gave it a gushing, perfect score without noting that it runs a bit like ass in docked mode though, yeah they ought to feel a bit embarrassed.

If this had've been a Ubi game tanking to 20 fps, you know it've been docked points.

If we were talking the Wii U version I might give Nintendo a pass or hell even if there were differences in texture/shadow/LOD quality it might be justifiable. All this is is a resolution bump (not even to 1080) and the docked Switch completely fails at that test. Nintendo has been promoting the console as a home console and for the portable version to be better is embarrassing for Nintendo.

Reviewers also have some egg on their face but I've long since realized that they don't care about any sort of FPS issue.

 

[Necro900]

Docked performance is straight up bizarre.
As they said you could run through one area at 30fps just fine and then do the exact same thing and get 20fps, that doesn't make sense

I think this is the thing we should concentrate on. I mean, could going from 720p to 900p really hammer performance to this degree? Even using the console on the dock and thus unlocking its full power?

What if Nintendo forgot to include the "disable energy saving when docked" instruction in the Day one update, and the poor console is trying to run 900p on undocked level hardware, lol

 

[hughesta]

"Unplayable" lmao

I played three hours last night and I'm sensitive to frame drops and it never stuttered for more than two seconds at a time

 

[platina]

So no 'secret sauce' in the dock after all.

nah just a bunch of these minions running around inside and when they get tired enough that's when the framerate starts to chug.

 

[Rafus]

Yeah, I just played the first part, and noticed the big drops in some areas and in combat.

 

[Interfectum]

"Unplayable" lmao

I played three hours last night and I'm sensitive to frame drops and it never stuttered for more than two seconds at a time

It's unplayable for people who had no intention of playing it to begin with. They are just salty about the metacritic score.

 

[papercan55]

Wait so if the U version dropped below 20, would it hit 10?

wait a few days, when enough people have reached a few villages and certain other locations people are going to flip tables.
this footage and the great plateau is one thing, it actually get's better after your off the plateau.
But when you hit a village, especially in the rain it slows to a crawl.

 

[Magic Mushroom]

If issues like this were not overlooked, it would not be sitting at 98. #commonsense.

They are not overlooked. Many reviews mention the performance. But the gist is that it's pretty much the only blight on an astonishing game.

 

[jett]

It does (or more specifically can) run at different clocks.

And this does seem like a v-sync issue.

I don't know about it being a purely v-sync issues. Seen footage where it freezes considerably later on. I mean multiple seconds where the screen is static. DF's graph would mark 0fps in those cases.

 

[TheExodu5]

This is the main reason I'm holding off the Switch at the moment.

The concept is a complete failure if docked and portal performance can't be normalized. What a disappointment.

With regards to the Wii U version, I suspect it will hold a lower sustained framerate but without the stutter that we're seeing in Switch Docked.

 

[Socivol]

Art style

Having a cool art style and LOOKING good aren't the same. I think it looks interesting and really vibrant for a Zelda game but jeez the graphics in motion are not very good.

 

[Huge Succeeded]

Come on dude, a game in todays review landscape getting a 93+ meta is hard, a 98 with performance issues like this is not something to just look over. 98 is a huge leap from the median review scores of the gen. It is a pretty big anomaly, and I DON'T doubt its a fantastic game, likely the top 3 games of the gen, but shit like this really irks me. Last Guardian is a fantastic game, my GOTY last year but it was pushed down by its performance issues on base PS4 hardware. It's a double standard to a certain degree. Not trying to drain hype from Zelda, but Its nice to have reasoning and equality in reviews.

Not a single person has demonstrated EVEN A SINGLE THING that conclusively demonstrates there's no 'reasoning and equality' where BoTW reviews are concerned.
It's always nebulous shit about how the previous Zelda games were received, as though this one is even enough like them to slate that nostalgia a bunch of you think you understand. That nostalgia that EVERYONE has, apparently.
Nothing that actually relates to
the content of these reviews themselves.
Someone ought to actually pick apart some of these reviews and forward something S U B S T A N T I A L to back up their cries of bias and double standards.

 

[Equanimity]

Yeah the art is soo good. Well realised too. Jaggies suck but meh, not the biggest issue. I say this as someone who creamed his pants repeatedly over the incredibly IQ in DOOM, never seen a game that smooth.

I guess it's all about tempering your expectations, hard to get disappointed when you know what to expect.

I feel the same way.

Having a cool art style and LOOKING good aren't the same. I think it looks interesting and really vibrant for a Zelda game but jeez the graphics in motion are not very good.

Also true, but I don't mind since my graphical expectations are of a powerful portable machine.

 

[RootCause]

I'd rather play the docked version in 720P resolution. Hope they do something about it.

 

[Griss]

What's scary about this video is that they didn't actually go to anywhere that the framerate really drops.

The 20fps drops seen in the video on the Great Plateau I noticed at the time but considered them 'acceptable' - because I'm not very framerate sensitive.

But there were at least three entire areas in the game where I found myself thinking 'This is not acceptable.' And I'd wager the framerate there is in the mid-to-low teens at times.

 

[Bluth54]

There is no power in the dock.

The GPU does run faster in docked mode though. It's supposed to be fast enough to produce a 1080p image but maybe it can't clock up high enough to do a 1080p image if the Switch uses the faster portable mode?

 

[hughesta]

It's unplayable for people who had no intention of playing it to begin with. They are just salty about the metacritic score.

Yeah, I know. Still frustrating to see great games get dogged for minor problems because some people don't want them to be great.

 

[forrest]

What happened between the build they found to have really decent performance and the final build?

 

[gregor7777]

Very impressed it runs and looks as good as it does in portable mode. An achievement for Nintendo. Bravo.

 

[phanphare]

Come on dude, a game in todays review landscape getting a 93+ meta is hard, a 98 with performance issues like this is not something to just look over. 98 is a huge leap from the median review scores of the gen. It is a pretty big anomaly, and I DON'T doubt its a fantastic game, likely the top 3 games of the gen, but shit like this really irks me. Last Guardian is a fantastic game, my GOTY last year but it was pushed down by its performance issues on base PS4 hardware. It's a double standard to a certain degree. Not trying to drain hype from Zelda, but Its nice to have reasoning and equality in reviews.

EDIT: Just as you see, I don't care for framerate as much as others do, I would live with it to experience the game. My TLDR is that I wish there was equality with reviewers when it comes to these things.

there's a double standard to be sure, but not with reviewers

seriously go read some of the reviews. the framerate was mentioned in almost every single one of them. despite that it got the scores it did. should tell you something.

 

[hodgy100]

Wait so if the U version dropped below 20, would it hit 10?

no it would go to 15 because 15 * 4 = 60 double buffered vsync requires even frame pacing.

 

[OrbitalBeard]

Two hopes:

1. Some performance patches throughout the year
2. A MAJOR performance patch when the inevitable "Switch Pro" launches

Yeah, I know. Still frustrating to see great games get dogged for minor problems because some people don't want them to be great.

I mean, I have no problem with people being disappointed about this (heck, I am too!). Plus, this is a Digital Foundry thread, where tech discussion is obviously heavily encouraged. But a number of posters on GAF are so incredibly transparent, it's hilarious.

 

[Vampirolol]

I think this is the thing we should concentrate on. I mean, could going from 720p to 900p really hammer performance to this degree? Even using the console on the dock and thus unlocking its full power?

What if Nintendo forgot to include the "disable energy saving when docked" instruction in the Day one update, and the poor console is trying to run 900p on undocked level hardware, lol

There must be a reason behind it and power doesn't seem likely, since even the worst case scenario would still put the Switch over Wii U by a big margin. Maybe it's optimization, a bug, the engine having problems... it's still their first huge open world game. Or maybe it's really some power problem and we should all freak out.

 

[Feel the Swift]

I want to believe this is only at the beginning of the game.

:/

 

[Matt]

I don't know about it being a purely v-sync issues. Seen footage where it freezes considerably later on. I mean multiple seconds where the screen is static. DF's graph would mark 0fps in those cases.

Hmm. I don't know then, I'll see after I spend all weekend playing it. I haven't seen that in my previous experiences with the game.

 

[Raguel]

Not a single person has demonstrated EVEN A SINGLE THING that conclusively demonstrates there's no 'reasoning and equality' where BoTW reviews are concerned.
It's always nebulous shit about how the previous Zelda games were received, as though this one is even enough like them to slate that nostalgia a bunch of you think you understand.
Nothing that actually relates to
the content of these reviews themselves.
Someone ought to actually pick apart some of these reviews and forward something S U B S T A N T I A L to back up their cries of bias.

Don't bother with these people. They just salty cause Zelda got such a highe score. Trying to make a mountain out of an ant hill.

 

[Mael]

"nananana it's because it's Zelda that it's not getting hammered for performance!"

That explains why the Legend of Zelda : Skyrim was so highly rated!

 

[NSESN]

What's scary about this video is that they didn't actually go to anywhere that the framerate really drops.

The 20fps drops seen in the video on the Great Plateau I noticed at the time but considered them 'acceptable' - because I'm not very framerate sensitive.

But there were at least three entire areas in the game where I found myself thinking 'This is not acceptable.' And I'd wager the framerate there is in the mid-to-low teens at times.

You are playing the Wii U version right? Maybe it isn't as bad in the switch version