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Opinion Event #DICE2020 Epic CEO Tim Sweeney condemns loot boxes, says game companies should 'divorce themselves from politics'

Clear

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Sometimes, an exploration of “both sides” lends itself to a dangerously misleading false equivalency between good and evil. It is a dishonest cudgel against those who have decided to take a firm stance against hate. I don’t care about “both sides.”
Every true believer thinks they are on the right side of God/history/morality etc.

This is why rational, good-faith debate is the real proving ground for ideas, and that requires more than a single perspective.
 

Vanitymachine

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Sometimes, an exploration of “both sides” lends itself to a dangerously misleading false equivalency between good and evil. It is a dishonest cudgel against those who have decided to take a firm stance against hate. I don’t care about “both sides.”
If you’re making a fantasy game or a simple action game than a black and white, good vs evil perspective is fine.

But if you’re trying to seriously address political themes than that doesn’t work. As much as you want to believe in a simple dichotomy of good vs “hate” it doesn’t exist. People have legitimate reasons when they hate others and those reasons should be explored and not just written off as blind evil.

If you are presenting one side of an issue in a wholly positive light and the other in a wholly negative than it feels like propaganda because in reality nothing is that simple.
 
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Clear

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It annoyed me how the writer of that PC-Gamer article gets all indignant about how not being political is a dangerous thing.

This is, in a word, nonsense. It stands up to zero scrutiny as a proposal. Especially when the scene has prospered and grown into what it is today without the overt politicization of the last few years. I mean, are they saying that gaming in the 70's and 80's was dangerous?

To me it seems no more, nor less, than an admission they care more about their pet political causes than games and gaming culture.
 

EDMIX

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Nothing wrong with politics in gaming
Thats it.

How its handled or done will always have folks cry about it. So when I hear this whole "companies should", first thing I think of is, "Companies should" DO WHAT EVER THE FUCK THEY WANT WITH THEIR WORK!

Gamers need to learn what everyone else has learned from other media, don't like it, don't watch, read or listen to it. You don't see people who write books, bitching about other books like the bible existing as some bad example for them or something, as if creating a book was only made for them to make the exact thing they are making and no one else. Could you imagine watching a tv show and someone who directed the tv show is now telling the Church or religion channel they should "Divorce" themselves from religion? Oh tell the news channel that they need to "divorce themselves" from politics? oooooooooorrrr watch something else.

Think about it, how self centered does someone have to be to seriously think they speak for the entire medium and what THEY LIKE must be applied to everyone else? How many other mediums do you see this stupid attitude? So I'm a firm believer in developers FREELY creating what they feel like. If they want to pander, that is their work, if they want to force a subject, that is their work.

Did you not realize that is what you see from those channels on TV that are all about religion?
 
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EDMIX

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You can't really keep politics out of games, any more than you can keep spiritual themes out of games. Politics has to do with the nature of how power, money, resources, and status are organized and distributed. That's often integral to the stories that games tell.

What I'd like is for progressive politics, the SJW/PC/woke nonsense, to get out of gaming. That would be nice. I acknowledge that this is just my preference, and I would defend the right of any developer to create anything they want to.
I agree with you first part of your post, for that reason I disagree with your second part...

"What I'd like is for progressive politics, the SJW/PC/woke nonsense, to get out of gaming"

Using your own words friend..."You can't really keep politics out of games"

I'd like for developers to create what they feel like it, regardless if I personally like it or agree with it or not. Overall I agree with most of your post though.

Darkmakaimura Darkmakaimura "he means injecting personal politics" Doesn't really matter, its still politics. Did you think you disagreeing with it suddenly made it something else? So it being personal or not is pretty much irrelevant as why on earth would it being "personal" have anything to do with the game? So if we have a game with republicans and democrats as characters in the game, its ONLY not ok if its "personal"? How exactly could you NOT make it personal? This is why I take the stance of just supporting developers to create what they feel like. Creating anything is personal btw.
 
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joe_zazen

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Every true believer thinks they are on the right side of God/history/morality etc.
these are the people who infest twitter and places like resetera. They seem to have infinite energy and time, lol.

This is why rational, good-faith debate is the real proving ground for ideas, and that requires more than a single perspective.
Being exposed to counter arguments is uncomfortable, which is people seek out bubbles. It is hard to fight against this. But, yeah, you are right.
 

Darkmakaimura

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I agree with you first part of your post, for that reason I disagree with your second part...

"What I'd like is for progressive politics, the SJW/PC/woke nonsense, to get out of gaming"

Using your own words friend..."You can't really keep politics out of games"

I'd like for developers to create what they feel like it, regardless if I personally like it or agree with it or not. Overall I agree with most of your post though.

Darkmakaimura Darkmakaimura "he means injecting personal politics" Doesn't really matter, its still politics. Did you think you disagreeing with it suddenly made it something else? So it being personal or not is pretty much irrelevant as why on earth would it being "personal" have anything to do with the game? So if we have a game with republicans and democrats as characters in the game, its ONLY not ok if its "personal"? How exactly could you NOT make it personal? This is why I take the stance of just supporting developers to create what they feel like. Creating anything is personal btw.
Maybe V Vanitymachine and Humdinger Humdinger said it better than me.

But I think there's a big difference between having politics in game and injecting much more personal politics or propaganda.
 
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Humdinger

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I agree with you first part of your post, for that reason I disagree with your second part...

"What I'd like is for progressive politics, the SJW/PC/woke nonsense, to get out of gaming"

Using your own words friend..."You can't really keep politics out of games"

I'd like for developers to create what they feel like it, regardless if I personally like it or agree with it or not. Overall I agree with most of your post though.
I'll try to clarify, because I don't think we disagree. When I said, "I'd like SJW/woke stuff to get out of gaming," I was expressing a personal preference, not a call for action/suppression. That's why I followed with, "But that's just my personal preference, and I would defend their right to create anything they want."

It's the difference between a personal preference/opinion and a statement of moral imperative. It's the difference between what I like personally and what I think the "rules" or the policy "should" be. It's the same with free speech. I dislike many of the political opinions I hear people express. I think they are stupid opinions, and I would prefer if those people held different ones or just piped down. But at the same time, I recognize that everyone has the right to express their opinion, even if it's a stupid one. I'm not interested in suppressing anyone's right to free expression.

Same thing here. My personal opinion is that SJW/woke stuff is annoying BS, and my personal preference is that it go away. But I also support developers' right to create anything they want, even it's it's stuff I consider dumb crap.

In other words, I have my preferences, but I also have my principles. The principle is more important than the preferences, but that won't stop me from having preferences.
 
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Tygeezy

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That is so far from a fair characterization that I don't care if this results in a double post. You know exactly what you are getting from the battle pass. And in STW they show you exactly what every possible paid lootbox contains.
And the game is free...
 
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EDMIX

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I think there's a big difference between having politics in game and injecting much more personal politics or propaganda.
i don't. Politics is inherently personal. What someone else views as their politics, other might see as "personal politics" or "propaganda" etc. At the very least, have the respect to understand that not everyone that has a different opinion then you, is hatching some secret "propaganda". Even look at the word itself "information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view" The issue I take with this is, how on Earth do you KNOW that person is purposely being misleading? So when I disagree with someone who has a different religion, political background etc then myself, I don't go around making it seem as if they are misleading anyone on purpose, I simply understand they truly have a different belief then me.

Thats like saying someone that believes in god and goes to church DOESN'T believe in god and MUST be misleading on purpose to scam someone or something...maybe, but chances are they might 100% believe that stuff, which means everyone you disagree with, can't really be all propaganda, they might 100% fully believe that. Give the respect to others to entertain that they truly believe in something no different then YOU believe in something. Its why I never classify anyone I disagree with in such a manor as I won't do something like pretend I'M the only one that can believe in something, it makes no sense. The best anyone can do is respectfully disagree, but don't go around making it seem as if someone you disagree with, doesn't believe in the thing they are talking about. You both just believe in different things. its why its not even possible for someone to say only have politics, but btw make it NOT personal or make it not "propaganda" etc.

1 persons "propaganda" is another persons true and honest belief structure. Who can say what is someone's "personal" views and why on earth would anyone in any industry in the arts try to govern, control or limit that? THAT IS MORE SCARY then someone simply having some personal political or religious view! Who is to say or govern what is "personal politics or propaganda" in a game? What happens when that board or committee is majority "SJW" and they start to deem having a gun in a game as 2nd amendment, right wing "propaganda"? You see how slippery that slope goes? I don't think you could really handle such a group doing that to all games, you can't really have a rule, law etc that you also can't be judged by yourself. Its best to have ALL OF US be allowed to voice a view freely. (didn't mean to make a baby tree lol)
 

desertdroog

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I was amazed at how crazy things were going when the game Shadow Complex boycott was hotly floated by members on this site:


That's the kind of politics around games that is the cancer. The game was actually political in nature, but wasn't skewered for the world it built, rather the game was attacked because of Orson Scott Card's politics outside of the Empire universe he made, which the game was based in. Though, some were completely turned off that someone would make a game with a right wing telling of a story, Card's religion and political stance on gay marriage had poisoned the game Daniel Mustard had made as love letter to Metroid and Castlevania mechanics.

This was the beginning of the end for rational discussion with people who rode or died on Identity Politics regarding games, note the date that happened and compare and contrast with the 'Gamers are Over' series of articles that came up after it.
 
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EDMIX

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That's the kind of politics around games that is the cancer.
I don't think any politics in games or any art is a "cancer".

Buy something else, play something else, read something else etc. Thats like picking up a political book and saying ahhhhh yes "That's the kind of politics around Books that is the cancer". Read something else sir.

Other mediums have no issue existing with people that have some political or religious views and that have some media that supports those views. Gaming needs to grow up and get over it. 1 Political view over the other DOESN'T OWN GAMING! If someone wants to not have that in a game, make it yourself, if someone wants that in a game, do it yourself. No one is stopping anyone from doing that and no one is forcing anyone to play a game with a view they disagree with anymore then someone is forcing someone to read the bible or read a book about politics.

It would be like saying those religious books are ruining reading and other books and or is the "cancer", never mind you could...you know...READ ANOTHER BOOK! That is the way gaming needs to be seen in the future if it wishes to even be taken seriously as an art form. I don't read every book, I don't watch every film, I don't listen to all music, so clearly I won't read a book about views I don't support like some pro KKK right wing book or something, I don't watch films on views I don't care for or support (Miss me with that Hallmark channel BS lol), I don't listen to christian rock.

THUS...I don't go around telling folks that the pro KKK book is a "cancer" to books, I don't go around telling folks that Hallmark is the "cancer" of tv and don't tell people that christian rock is the "cancer" of music. We need to let gaming be open enough that even views we don't support, can actually just be games for THOSE THAT SUPPORT THOSE VIEWS! Thats it..
 

desertdroog

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I specifically said politics "AROUND" games, not in games.

Its a key distinction that informs my gripe in the context of this threads discussion
 

CitizenX3639

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In simple terms, our wokeness has weakened our product and in order to defuse and increase our profit we will denounce all the fake liberal agenda.

Basically like all schills, they want your money and will do anything for it.