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[SlipperyFishes]

I just wanna point out that it's pretty amazing that I can't think of a single memorable white character (Misty's partner is the closest) in Luke Cage. That was pretty much a cast of colour and nobody batted an eyelid.

More movies and television like this please. I know one show doesn't say there's no racism here and I'm not trying to say that at all but maybe studios can look at the success of that show and not bank on White Guy #7 in the Lead Actor Folio more often.

 

[Khoryos]

I just wanna point out that it's pretty amazing that I can't think of a single memorable white character (Misty's partner is the closest) in Luke Cage. That was pretty much a cast of colour and nobody batted an eyelid.

Shades?

 

[Lime]

Eh, I can see and respect artistic integrity and historical accuracy (provided that the accuracy is actually accurate), but that doesn't mean I'd not be perfectly fine with "shoehorned" diversity. I do enjoy diverse casts more, but it's how people make out historical accuracy to be unethical and racist that I have a problem with.

Same goes for artistic integrity.

Your conception of historical accuracy is predicated on hegemonic historical sources and white/washed popular media that make you think that the past was homogeneous.

Artistic integrity is also a flawed concept as "artists" don't live in a vacuum and always are influenced by their surroundings and the context in which they live in. It's not like "art" is produced without outside influence (lol!) and taking in feedback is part of being a professional artist. Hell, listening to other people is part of being a human being. And that's not even taking into account that much 'art' is basically commercial products aimed at making as much money as possible.

 

[Zeuanimals]

I'm sorry "shoehorn" is not a good answer. Minority actors need roles too, limiting them from ever doing anything set before 1850 is fucked.

What do you guys think of the argument that it's just movies and that if Hollywood's not hiring minority actors, then those actors should just find other jobs? I know it's a terrible argument but I haven't spent much time dissecting why and I should be sleeping instead of doing that.

Edit: I guess a better way to phrase it is that diversity in media doesn't matter or something.

 

[forrest]

It may have been pointed out, but I love that it's a thread on "Diet Racism" then proceeds to use images of only white people as examples.

 

[Gnome]

What do you guys think of the argument that it's just movies and that if Hollywood's not hiring minority actors, then those actors should just find other jobs? I know it's a terrible argument but I haven't spent much time dissecting why and I should be sleeping instead of doing that.

Edit: I guess a better way to phrase it is that diversity in media doesn't matter or something.

Read the post directly before this one and you can immediately draw the connection that white washing media creates a misconception of history. Also, telling non white actors to find other jobs is victim blaming.

It may have been pointed out, but I love that it's a thread on "Diet Racism" then proceeds to use images of only white people as examples.

Because contextually it's the diet racist arguments ala the bingo card image that are being posted all over the place and are currently being addressed which are in reference to current cultural trends in which white characters dominate? Maybe that's why? Just a little?

 

[Trokil]

Pretty sure that's not true. Test pilot is the most I heard of.

Same goes for the plural of black samurai. There was afaik exactly one. A movie about him might be a good idea because that seems to be an interesting story, but falsification of history because it's not inclusive enough is a pretty silly suggestion.

History gets falsified by both sides pretty badly to make a point. For example.

In university, we had a whole course about gender development during the First World War and yes, there where women on the front lines, more than 99% of the soldiers were male. Women did things they did not before, like driving the x-ray trucks, working in factories or even playing professional soccer. World War 1 was very important for women’s rights, but not because women had an active role in the trenches.

The same thing is pretty much true for the Second World War. Again women had to take roles in society, they did not have before and did not want to give them up again. Both wars were important for gender equality, but again not because women were fighting in the front lines.

You have to take a development for what it was, not how you would like it to be. Else you just open everything for discussion and give people the room for interpretation you don’t want. This includes accepting, that there were things like the Sowjet women’s battalion during World War 1, but this was something very, very unusual and this nowhere reflects the reality of the war. If you take every minor thing and inflate it, you will get exactly those thing you don't like from the opposite side, like the good slave owner or the rightous south or all that stuff.

 

[Sumio Mondo]

Wasn't The Last Samurai inspired by this guy's life:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_Brunet

A better example would be when they hire white actors/actresses clearly meant for Asians like Ghost in the Shell where you have a white woman playing a character called "Makoto". Or Emma Stone playing a Hawaiian/Chinese girl. That's worse.

 

[MistakenMobius]

Wasn't The Last Samurai inspired by this guy's life:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_Brunet

Not an American.

A better example would be when they hire white actors/actresses clearly meant for Asians like Ghost in the Shell where you have a white woman playing a character called "Makoto". That's worse.

Motoko

 

[Trokil]

A better example would be when they hire white actors/actresses clearly meant for Asians like Ghost in the Shell where you have a white woman playing a character called "Makoto". That's worse.

Max Landis explained, if Scarlett Johansson would not have taken the lead, the movie would not have been made. You either get this or no movie, it is as simple as that.

 

[Sumio Mondo]

Max Landis explained, if Scarlett Johansson would not have taken the lead, the movie would not have been made. You either get this or no movie, it is as simple as that.

Then don't make the movie. I'm not supporting a film that gets made off the back off "only whites can do it".

 

[Gnome]

Max Landis explained, if Scarlett Johansson would not have taken the lead, the movie would not have been made. You either get this or no movie, it is as simple as that.

No movie might've been the better choice then, rather than giving in to institutionalized white washing.

 

[Trokil]

No movie might've been the better choice then, rather than giving in to institutionalized white washing.

Well, then a lot of movies will not will be made. Without Brad Pitt 12 years a slave would not have been made either or at least would have been very hard to get greenlit. Hollywood works this way at the moment, you somehow need this big star to get things going.

And the really sad part is, they also take Scarlett because they want the money from the Asian markets and a Japanese actress in Ghost in the Shell would have actually made less money in China than Scarlett will.

 

[MistakenMobius]

No movie might've been the better choice then, rather than giving in to institutionalized white washing.

True, but i would go even further that we have institutionalized American washing.
The office a British tv show has been us remade for us viewer.
A lot of French movie had the same ( la totale becoming true Lies)
And countless Asian movie.
Americans just cannot watch non American media

 

[NEO0MJ]

I'm not a racist but isn't it wrong to change the past?

Just kidding. Lots of good points, especially with regards to how important it is to stick to historical accuracy unless the one out of place is white.

 

[Jackpot]

Further examples:

"Calling someone a racist is worst than being a racist", a variation on "being intolerant of the intolerant is just as bad"

Will admit that racism exists but will never agree that any specific actions or news stories were racist.

 

[Henkka]

Then don't make the movie. I'm not supporting a film that gets made off the back off "only whites can do it".

Landis' point wasn't that "only whites can do it", it's that there are no Japanese-American actresses with the box office draw that can justify the budget of a big sci-fi movie (At least in the eyes of studios). Idris Elba can carry Dark Tower because he's a big name actor, and he's not white. Hell, the character he's portraying isn't even black in the book. Literally nobody would've complained if Roland was portrayed by a white actor, but the studio still went with Elba. That should tell you that to Hollywood, it's more about risk than race. While it's possible that GITS could be a hit with a relatively unknown Japanese-American actress, big studios see that as a risk they're not willing to take.

 

[A Fish Aficionado]

Being a Catrina is not cultural appropriation, because it is one of it self.

 

[Plum]

If whitewashing is bad (which it is most definitely), how come making historical figures who were white not white isn't? I'm genuinely confused here. The argument against the "historical accuracy" bullshit seems to be that diversity has always existed to some extent (which I agree with), not that it's fine to make any real-life person any race. EDIT: To clarify I'm only talking about real-life historical figures (so no "legends" like Robin Hood) and characters whose race is an integral part of the story being told.

 

[A Fish Aficionado]

As someone Latino, having a white dude dressing up in a sombrero and singing the Mexican yell, or any of the Polk instruments we inherited from you, isn't offensive.

Being the caricature if speedy Gonzales is.
There's always a context.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

That shit is the reason why i dont look through the imgur frontpage often anymore.
The other day i saw a post with tweets from Steve Crowder talking about how black people started slavery and white people ended it... like wtf.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Then don't make the movie. I'm not supporting a film that gets made off the back off "only whites can do it".

Sounds like a perfectly valid reason to not support it. But people are still going to make movies you don't like, that's the nature of mass-market entertainment media, and either enough people care about the casting that the film fails or they don't, and if it fails it's for any other reason.

 

[Slayven]

I am throwing "Both sides" in there too. Cause that has been coming up a lot


"Cops are killing black people"

"Welll both sides need to take a step back and try to see it from each others point of view"

People have literally said that

 

[Toa TAK]

Great OP. Especially on the Historical Accuracy bit.

 

[Funyarinpa]

Your conception of historical accuracy is predicated on hegemonic historical sources and white/washed popular media that make you think that the past was homogeneous.

Artistic integrity is also a flawed concept as "artists" don't live in a vacuum and always are influenced by their surroundings and the context in which they live in. It's not like "art" is produced without outside influence (lol!) and taking in feedback is part of being a professional artist. Hell, listening to other people is part of being a human being. And that's not even taking into account that much 'art' is basically commercial products aimed at making as much money as possible.

I didn't say anything about who my sources were or about who was truly being historically accurate, I do think that many who claim that as a defense are inaccurate. I meant the general concept of adopting a historical setting with its good parts and bad parts.

As for artistic integrity, I might need to revisit discussions- the meaning is a bit muddled. I didn't wish to say that they are immune from feedback and criticism, though.

 

[ClosingADoor]

If whitewashing is bad (which it is most definitely), how come making historical figures who were white not white isn't? I'm genuinely confused here. The argument against the "historical accuracy" bullshit seems to be that diversity has always existed to some extent (which I agree with), not that it's fine to make any real-life person any race. EDIT: To clarify I'm only talking about real-life historical figures (so no "legends" like Robin Hood) and characters whose race is an integral part of the story being told.

I'm having a hard time thinking of when this happened. Do you have any examples?

 

[Plum]

I'm having a hard time thinking of when this happened. Do you have any examples?

This post for example:

Why even give a handwave? Does it really matter if a black man is playing Julius Caesar? It doesn't matter. Present the character and let it go, the audience will figure it out.

I just don't see the reason why "does it really matter?" is an argument in this case but when that same argument used by a diet racist/idiot to excuse whitewashing is wrong (which, again, I agree with). Why is a black man playing Julius Caesar (a well-defined, real-life figure whose race is clear) fine?

 

[Charles Brandon]

some comments

On "there is no racism in the UK/Europe" -

Whilst I cannot speak for the rest of Europe, there is, of course, racism in the UK and I can scarcely believe that anyone would claim otherwise with a straight face. Whether there is "as much" racism in the UK as in the US is open for debate and beyond my experience to make a qualified comment. What is true though is that racism is contextually different in the UK.

We didn't have slaves here (officially - although obviously we traded in them) and we didn't fight a civil war that was at least partially over that issue. That's a fairly fundamental difference.

Does that mean that racism does not exist? No. I'm sure people of ethic backgrounds will tell you that they have experienced many of the issues that trouble POC in the US, although mercifully we don't have much history of cops killing people based on the colour of their skin with one very notable exception. The metropolitan (read: London) police have been accused publicly of being "institutionally racist" and whilst I hope things have changed since then I have no doubt that some of those attitudes remain.

Clearly, the brexit vote brought out some people who had been hiding in the woodwork and whilst anti-immigration sentiments should not necessarily be conflated with racism there is obviously a lot of crossover. And a lot of that vote WAS concerned with antimuslim feeling, even though the immigration of muslims was largely unaffected by brexit.

Anecdotally, based on some visits to the US and New Orleans in particular, I would tentatively suggest that perhaps the UK is not as segregated as the US but again that's not really a qualified comment.

on "historical accuracy" -

Agree with the sentiments of those who are dismayed by whitewashing of non-white events for commercial success and white saviour type storylines. Not OK in my book.

However, I'm not ready to completely write off historical accuracy as a justification for having an entirely white cast in certain games or films. Whilst exceptions can often be found many pre-20th century cultures were almost entirely mono-ethnic. I have no issue with any game or movie that choose to reflect modern diverse societies in that context but I don't believe that it should be mandatory.

Many of us live in places where there are communities of people with heritage from africa, the sub-continent, eastern europe, east-asia and elsewhere because of economic and social factors that would obviously not have been present in say, the court of anyone who may lay claim to have been the "real life" King Arthur. The presence of black, chinese and indian people in that context would need some justification if accuracy is desirable (although if it's just a fantasy then the same rules don't necessarily apply).

 

[ClosingADoor]

This post for example:



I just don't see the reason why "does it really matter?" is an argument in this case but when that same argument used by a diet racist/idiot to excuse whitewashing is wrong (which, again, I agree with). Why is a black man playing Julius Caesar (a well-defined, real-life figure whose race is clear) fine?

Ah, I thought you were talking about instances where this happened in movies, which I don't think it has.

As for historical figures, I agree that it would be preferable to use the real life ethnicity if the movie is portrayed in a mostly realistic way. If it is Julius Caesar Zombie Hunter or whatever, or just uses the character as inspiration, changing it is fine.

 

[Henkka]

I think it also kinda depends where the Caesar movie is made. If it's a Bollywood film, they're probably going to get some big Indian movie star to play Julius Caesar, and that's fine imo.

 

[Alej]

Racism is a real problem, but a bunch of fools talking about it and playing semantics, i don't know, it's free speech.

There is no war to win on the internet. You won't change people opinions by excluding them from the conversation.

And then, i'm a redhead, i know what is racism (i don't like this word, should be ostracism), i had been discriminated countless times because of my pilosity color and skin tone. I feel offended sometimes and i know what it feels to be beaten, harassed, etc, because of being different.

But in the end, you can't argue about us not being different, we are, we don't lie in the same genetic group. We are different, gender different, physically different, even culturally different, we can't be the same. Julius Caesar wasn't black or redhead.

We should argue about what unify us, what we all agree with (love for our children and parents, friends, how we look at the sky, how we are all on earth). Then, as we understand ourselves more, we could eat at the same table and stop virtually killing us. That's it.

 

[Plum]

Ah, I thought you were talking about instances where this happened in movies, which I don't think it has.

As for historical figures, I agree that it would be preferable to use the real life ethnicity if the movie is portrayed in a mostly realistic way. If it is Julius Caesar Zombie Hunter or whatever, or just uses the character as inspiration, changing it is fine.

Yeah, that's where I'm getting at. Though now that I think about it there was a BBC period drama where a real-life king was played by a black man, not sure what it was called however.

Personally I think examples such as that post and the drama harm more than they help; it gives ammo/credence to the actual racists (diet or full sugar) to make bullshit arguments whilst taking away from the roles people of colour had throughout history and glossing over the genuine prejudices they might have faced back then as if they never happened. An example I could give is if Battlefield 1 hadn't featured the Harlem Hellfighters and instead just made Lawrence of Arabia a PoC.

I think it also kinda depends where the Caesar movie is made. If it's a Bollywood film, they're probably going to get some big Indian movie star to play Julius Caesar, and that's fine imo.

Yeah, global barriers can definitely be a barrier. It's why, despite being set in a clearly Germanic setting, the Attack on Titan live action films all starred Japanese actors. I was more directing it at films made in Hollywood or Britain where there's always actors and actresses from every single race ready to be casted.

 

[Peltz]

What's the A2 square on this card about (aka the shoehorning only if the writing is good)?

What would be an example of this?

 

[Aaron]

Then don't make the movie. I'm not supporting a film that gets made off the back off "only whites can do it".

Motoko is a cyborg that doesn't look remotely asian. Why should they hire an asian person to play her? This was a design choice by the Japanese artist and creator of the series. It was clearly a choice considering there are asian characters in the comic, and in the movie they will be played by asian actors. Why can't you respect the choices of the artist? We don't even know if Motoko is asian since we've only seen her in a cyborg body, and nothing relating to her parents ancestry is ever mentioned. We don't even know if she's a real person. Should an AI made in Japan only be played by a japanese actor?

 

[Infinite]

When people treat your humanity as if it's an academic debate. Fucking hate that shit

 

[Clefargle]

Yeah I can't stand all the whiny nonsense about tiptoeing around racism whether blatant or not. Some people have sooooo much invested in it that they will argue down to the wire and push absurd unrelated things like "academic freedom" to try and give themselves cover.

 

[Htown]

Wasn't The Last Samurai inspired by this guy's life:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_Brunet

That doesn't make it better really.

All the Samurai stories in history that Hollywood could choose to tell, and they pick the one where they can throw in a white guy and make him the center.

And it's not even him, it's just loosely inspired by him.

Motoko is a cyborg that doesn't look remotely asian. Why should they hire an asian person to play her? This was a design choice by the Japanese artist and creator of the series. It was clearly a choice considering there are asian characters in the comic, and in the movie they will be played by asian actors. Why can't you respect the choices of the artist? We don't even know if Motoko is asian since we've only seen her in a cyborg body, and nothing relating to her parents ancestry is ever mentioned. We don't even know if she's a real person. Should an AI made in Japan only be played by a japanese actor?

This is so fucking stupid I don't even know where to start.

 

[Carcetti]

What's the A2 square on this card about (aka the shoehorning only if the writing is good)?

What would be an example of this?

"This black/gay/woman character wasn't written well enough to be a standout / Oscar material so it was just shoehorned in to be 'diverse'. All characters should be white men by default unless those characters are superbly written because white man is the default state of humanity that needs no reason to be included"

 

[AuthenticM]

What's the A2 square on this card about (aka the shoehorning only if the writing is good)?

What would be an example of this?

Lots of time, you will see the argument that goes something like this: "I'm okay with having women or minorities as the main character, but only if the writing is good."

This is total diet sexism and diet racism because these people would have never ever said that shit about having a straight white male as the main character. Major double standard.

 

[Dice//]

I just wanna point out that it's pretty amazing that I can't think of a single memorable white character (Misty's partner is the closest) in Luke Cage. That was pretty much a cast of colour and nobody batted an eyelid.

More movies and television like this please. I know one show doesn't say there's no racism here and I'm not trying to say that at all but maybe studios can look at the success of that show and not bank on White Guy #7 in the Lead Actor Folio more often.

Luke Cage sprinkled in white people like white shows sprinkle in black people. It was great flipping things around like that.

 

[MistakenMobius]

Motoko is a cyborg that doesn't look remotely asian. Why should they hire an asian person to play her? This was a design choice by the Japanese artist and creator of the series. It was clearly a choice considering there are asian characters in the comic, and in the movie they will be played by asian actors. Why can't you respect the choices of the artist? We don't even know if Motoko is asian since we've only seen her in a cyborg body, and nothing relating to her parents ancestry is ever mentioned. We don't even know if she's a real person. Should an AI made in Japan only be played by a japanese actor?

All characters of GITS are Japanese.
They work for the Japanese Public Security.
There is no indication that they might be another ethnicity.

 

[twobear]

What's the A2 square on this card about (aka the shoehorning only if the writing is good)?

What would be an example of this?

it's just a weird argument that people sometimes use, like, 'they should include a minoriy/female character if they're written well otherwise it's just shoehorning it in for the sake of it, which is bad'

which seems like an odd argument to use, firstly in the context of videogames where the examples of genuinely good writing can be counted on the fingers of one hand, and secondly because the idea white males being the 'default' is exactly part of the problem

 

[SlipperyFishes]

Shades?

Totally forgot about Shades because compared to other characters he was forgettable.

 

[Infinite]

Totally forgot about Shades because compared to other characters he was forgettable.

He's Latino

 

[SomedayTheFire]

What's the A2 square on this card about (aka the shoehorning only if the writing is good)?

What would be an example of this?

The argument? I've seen it mostly about gay characters. Those people don't want gay (or other minorities but I've seen it being used mostly for gay people) characters who are just gay people. They want it to be gay characters that "fit in" with the others and assimilate. Basically saying "it's OK if that character is gay but don't tell us, show us, or acknowledge it"

 

[BronsonLee]

I mean we definitely should stop whitewashing anime adaptations

But we also should stop adapting anime

Because anime is wrong

 

[Charles Brandon]

He's Latino

I don't understand why "Latino" is considered a different race from white in the US. I'm probably missing something...

 

[crimsonheadGCN]

You forgot "racism is over."

Can be combined with "we have a black president."

I remember someone that I know once saying that blacks had no right to complain about treatment because they got a black man to become a president.

 

[JimmyRustler]

I don't really get why always Hollywood gets so much hate for using white leads and not say Germany for using white lead in their movie or Japanese for Japanese leads for their movies, China Chinese leads, Bollywood Indian leads and so on.

 

[lightskintwin]

I just wanna point out that it's pretty amazing that I can't think of a single memorable white character (Misty's partner is the closest) in Luke Cage. That was pretty much a cast of colour and nobody batted an eyelid.

More movies and television like this please. I know one show doesn't say there's no racism here and I'm not trying to say that at all but maybe studios can look at the success of that show and not bank on White Guy #7 in the Lead Actor Folio more often.

There have been and still are plenty of Black television shows and Black films. I'm kinda astounded when somebody says something like this.

I don't really get why always Hollywood gets so much hate for using white leads and not say Germany for using white lead in their movie or Japanese for Japanese leads for their movies, China Chinese leads, Bollywood Indian leads and so on.

Because America is 63 percent non Hispanic White and shrinking:

The percentage of non-Hispanic white people in the U.S. population has reached an all-time low: 63%. That is 197.7 million white people out of 313.9 million Americans. In 2000, whites were 69% of the population. In 1980, they made up 80%