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[Hawk269]

Where does this thing about the weather changing in Forza only if the player car is moving? Unless something recently changed, when I was playing the demo before the game came out, I would park the car in a corner and let the storm pass so I could race where the sun was rising. I clearly just sat on the track and the rain started to stop, then the cloud cover changed and sun started to peak out. Basically I was on Lap 1 towards the end where the Storm was heavy, stopped let the storm pass and where it looks like the last 1/2 of lap 2 where you get some sun and the nice lighting off the track and ended racing the last 1 1/2 laps in that condition. So not sure where this "car must be in motion" in order for the weather to change. Unless I'm mistaken.

 

[Purdy]

Not sure which one it is but one of them I can constantly see objects in rear view mirror disappear/pop out which is very disappointing.

Thank god we got both as they offer very different experiences, combination of both would be sweet .

 

[rodrigolfp]

Forza 7 has broken CPu scaling on PC, i am not sure a locked 120 fps is even possible

Where i said 120fps is possible now? But if is really not possible now, will be in near future. That glorious forever backward compatibility.

 

[potatohead]

GTS is superior in every facet bar resolution. Even though it was a pro vs high end pc. Shame EG couldn't call it how it is in the final summary. Called it down the middle, when it's anything but.

Yea that's the sad thing.

Credit is due where credit is due. Give Polyphony their virtual trophy, they deserve it.

It is simply next level graphics. And it has nothing to do with being extra technical or pixel pushing, it's the art design and lighting design, but that is the difference maker between looking OK and looking amazing.

Like it's absurd they want to walk down the middle path so badly they can't simply comment to say the lighting is what carries GT graphics over other games. That is what it is at the end of the day, it has a lighting solution beyond what other games have.

 

[Seganomics]

GTS comes out on top here in terms of the overall presentation. It just has a slightly more pleasing appearance. Which isn't a knock on Forza, both teams have obviously placed their focus on different areas for these titles.

 

[Hawk269]

Not sure which one it is but one of them I can constantly see objects in rear view mirror disappear/pop out which is very disappointing.

Thank god we got both as they offer very different experiences, combination of both would be sweet .

That is both of them. I have seen it playing both games. I am not sure which one has a farther distance, but in my playtime with both it happens in both games.

 

[SEGAvangelist]

You know what's crazy- barely any one is talking about GT Sport's HDR implementation. The HDR sample video that's provided by Digital Foundry .net or even the YT Video is absolutely incredible.

I was not impressed with GT Sport's HDR implementation. Played it on an LG B6 and I much prefer the improved contrast in FM7.

 

[Purdy]

That is both of them. I have seen it playing both games. I am not sure which one has a farther distance, but in my playtime with both it happens in both games.

Perhaps you’re right, I wonder if one is much worse than the other, only visual flaw that bothers me whilst playing either

 

[skyfinch]

Where does this thing about the weather changing in Forza only if the player car is moving? Unless something recently changed, when I was playing the demo before the game came out, I would park the car in a corner and let the storm pass so I could race where the sun was rising. I clearly just sat on the track and the rain started to stop, then the cloud cover changed and sun started to peak out. Basically I was on Lap 1 towards the end where the Storm was heavy, stopped let the storm pass and where it looks like the last 1/2 of lap 2 where you get some sun and the nice lighting off the track and ended racing the last 1 1/2 laps in that condition. So not sure where this "car must be in motion" in order for the weather to change. Unless I'm mistaken.

It's time of day they were mentioning not weather.

 

[Hawk269]

Perhaps you’re right, I wonder if one is much worse than the other, only visual flaw that bothers me whilst playing either

When I get chance, I will look at both, but it happen regardless. I will try using the same tracks to see which may have a longer draw. Did the video talk about the reflections when in hood cam view and seeing reflections on the front hood of cars in both games? I found that it looked a bit worse in GTS than in Forza. Just curious if they cover that? I am in the middle of stuff and cant watch the video.

 

[BBQ_of_DOOM]

When I get chance, I will look at both, but it happen regardless. I will try using the same tracks to see which may have a longer draw. Did the video talk about the reflections when in hood cam view and seeing reflections on the front hood of cars in both games? I found that it looked a bit worse in GTS than in Forza. Just curious if they cover that? I am in the middle of stuff and cant watch the video.

I know the low res cube mapped reflections are mentioned in the article somewhere.

 

[pottuvoi]

Where i said 120fps is possible now? But if is really not possible now, will be in near future. That glorious forever backward compatibility.

120hz output on consoles would be lovely.
It would allow additional stable framerates and half the time of small drops and tearlines are visible.

Variable is better, sadly thee no support on TV.

 

[Dictator93]

Where i said 120fps is possible now? But if is really not possible now, will be in near future. That glorious forever backward compatibility.

Well its unlockable framerate on PC atm is a bit questionable unless you have freesync or gsync, but even then you have disparate frametimes. Also, given its current frametimes and numbers, we could have a Batman sitatuation where the engine design deciaions + caching / streaming may never actually allow a hitchvree proper hfr experienece. I am thoroughly disappointed in the pc version of fm7, modern CPUs should be destroying it given the xb1 version.

 

[Caayn]

The difference is that these games are trying to simulate many of the same things on the same tracks with common vehicles. It’s interesting to compare.

Is it though?

This comparison would've made much more sense last generation when both franchises and platforms were closer together. Last gen they both aimed at a high car count and the platforms they were running weren't that far apart. Right now they're pretty far apart. Is it surprising that the game with a stronger base platform, less content and longer development time can achieve more?

 

[therealbigrich]

GT does look better and that's pretty good

 

[Sad Affleck]

Also a good point.

I don't find it a particularly good point. Rendering a game at a high resolution is not a waste of resources.

 

[rodrigolfp]

Well its unlockable framerate on PC atm is a bit questionable unless you have freesync or gsync, but even then you have disparate frametimes. Also, given its current frametimes and numbers, we could have a Batman sitatuation where the engine design deciaions + caching / streaming may never actually allow a hitchvree proper hfr experienece. I am thoroughly disappointed in the pc version of fm7, modern CPUs should be destroying it given the xb1 version.

If variable frametimes above 60fps botters you, you can always lock to 75, 100 or whatever you like.

 

[BBQ_of_DOOM]

I don't find it a particularly good point. Rendering a game at a high resolution is not a waste of resources.

Maybe in certain (most?) situations, sure. Just not sure that applies here.

 

[chubigans]

I don't find it a particularly good point. Rendering a game at a high resolution is not a waste of resources.

When you go above 1080p, checkerboard rendering can really look great in certain instances. I’m not saying 4K doesn’t look better, but there’s a balance there you can achieve.

Forza engine was built from the ground up to power through high resolutions though (on the XB1 launch it was one of the few games at native 1080p, at 60fps no less) so I’m not sure how much it would improve the game if they targeted lower res.

 

[Dictator93]

If variable frametimes above 60fps botters you, you can always lock to 75, 100 or whatever you like.

Kind of, presuming your display supports those refresh rates. Also, that does not mean stable frametimes

 

[Dr.Phibes]

Fantastic video John! I’m so glad you used the GT Sport soundtrack across the whole vid. Soooo good.

Glad that GT gets the praise for trackside detail like it deserves.

And Forza is 90gb?! That baked solution is not sustainable if they ever want to do time of day and more tracks.

99gb actually. And the game loves to crash towards the end of 3 hour races...

 

[Sad Affleck]

Maybe in certain (most?) situations, sure. Just not sure that applies here.

I don't see why not. In my eyes GTS looks better due to the lighting system and car detail but that doesn't mean that Forza's 4K resolution is a waste. Both studios did their best to achieve specific goals within their development limitations. Before anyone criticizes the direction each studio took he has to take into account factors such as available time, budget, content and such.

 

[BBQ_of_DOOM]

I don't see why not. In my eyes GTS looks better due to the lighting system and car detail but that doesn't mean that Forza's 4K resolution is a waste. Both studios did their best to achieve specific goals within their development limitations. Before anyone criticizes the direction each studio took he has to take into account factors such as available time, budget, content and such.

Right, which requires a certain allocation of resources. But, we also aren’t privy to the stuff you added in the last sentence.

I’m just a bit surprise the X’s first party graphical showcase isn’t as impressive as maybe it could have been. But that’s largely speculative and likely outside the bounds of this thread.

 

[JP]

Fantastic, one of my favourite Digital Foundry videos so far. Who'd have believed it, they both have their strengths and weaknesses but are both really good. Hell of a thing.

I think I agree with everything said in the video and I've never really understood the need that some have to try and dismantle the achievements that each franchise has earned. Gran Turismo has long been my favourite of the two franchises but that's not dismissive of anything that Forza does, I love those games too.

It's perfectly natural that people may prefer one or the other and I'd question anybody whichever one works better for them. I'm far more into the Horizon series than the Motorsport series now and I really do think that the "Forza Style" of graphics is better suited to that franchise.

Gran Turismo Sport is fantastic on the Pro and I really can't wait to play the Forza games on my Xbox One X early next month.

 

[Kabuki Waq]

I was not impressed with GT Sport's HDR implementation. Played it on an LG B6 and I much prefer the improved contrast in FM7.

Isn't that because lgs game made hdr implementation is way too dim?

 

[sixteen-bit]

Damn, the last sim I played was GT3 and I thought racing games would never looks better. This vid was amazing

 

[SEGAvangelist]

Isn't that because lgs game made hdr implementation is way too dim?

Nope. Looks worse in HDR Standard too (GT Sport). I really don't see why DF thinks GT Sport HDR looks so good. Many Pro games do it better, IMO.

 

[Tajaz2426]

Nope. Looks worse in HDR Standard too (GT Sport). I really don't see why DF thinks GT Sport HDR looks so good. Many Pro games do it better, IMO.

Looks great on my KS8500. How they implement HDR with settings is pretty nice too.

 

[EvB]

Isn't that because lgs game made hdr implementation is way too dim?

It depends on which LG Oled you are using too, the 2017 models have a higher peak brightness.

 

[BeeDog]

Great video as always. One thing though, doesn’t GTS actually have 30 cars on stage during endurance races? Might recall incorrectly, but I’m quite sure someone showed that.

 

[Genio88]

Forza 7 looks better

 

[Gurish]

It's pretty disappointing that there is no bottom line and DF decided to stay politically correct, I'm sure that John still has a preference, a game that edges out the other, even if both are looking incredible there must be one that looks more appealing for him, even by little.

 

[Gowans]

Awesome, need to race home and watch this on my tele, been looking forward to it since Dark said it was coming. Will be great to see the impact of the different choices the make.

I caught this vid yesterday of a split screen lap on the same track, car and conditions.

https://youtu.be/iPAJglzjOHc

 

[Rodelero]

I don't find it a particularly good point. Rendering a game at a high resolution is not a waste of resources.

It is arguably a highly inefficient use of resources though. Boosting resolution is the brute force approach to better visuals. Simple to do, significant IQ boost, but extremely expensive. I don't think we're at the point where consoles are powerful enough for it to be worthwhile - especially given the massive improvements in (cheap) anti-aliasing this generation and innovations like checkerboard. The resolution jump during this generation is just bizarre when you think about it. Last generation we were barely managing 720p, this generation the PS4 was mostly managing 1080p and the Xbox One was struggling to, suddenly Microsoft feel it's worth pushing 4K60? It's the wrong way to wow people, that's for sure. The Xbox One X will be the most powerful console - but what does it matter if the PS4 Pro has the best looking games (exclusives) anyway?

 

[Griss]

Fantastic video, wonderful watch.

All the extra detail on the GT cars seems pretty useless to me, but where GT takes the crown comfortably is their lighting. It just looks so real.

On the other hand, the fact that Forza tracks have collidable objects and the cars show real damage makes things that much more immersive for me.

Both games are outstanding achievements, but the amount of content Forza has easily trumps the slight technical advantages GT has in my eyes.

 

[dr guildo]

Both games are gorgeous !!

 

[Salvadora]

GTS takes it for me based on the video.

Lighting looks (much) better.

Although some of those Forza tracks are stunning.

My god is it so hard to stick to the topic at hand?

The amount of content is mentioned multiple times within the comparison.

 

[Hawk269]

I wonder why John did not cover the damage model in each game? In Forza 7, if you rear end an AI car, not only does your car take physical damage, but the AI car does as well. I tested this in GT and I rear ended a AI car at 100mph and the rear end of the AI car looked as new as it if it just came out of an assembly line. In Forza 7 rear ending an AI car causes brake light housing to be blown out, visible damage to the rear end and in addition severe damage to the player car with visible damage.

In cockpit view, front windshields and side windows get blown out depending on hard you hit something, in GTS you can take a header into a brick wall at 200mph and your car apart from some minor visible scratches on the very front of the car remains in tack, windows don't crack or anything. I may have missed it, but I don't recall rear view mirrors, spoilers, bumpers etc getting damaged or broken off in GTS, while in Forza 7 they break off and remain on the track. In GTS on one of the ovals I decided to drive back wards and had head on collisions with every AI car and every one of them drove away like nothing happened with no damage. I did the same in Forza 7 and all 23 AI cars had visible blown out lights, damaged front ends etc.

I wonder why damage model was not covered. I would think if GTS had the level of damage for both the player and AI cars at the same level of Forza 7 would it still be able to do what it does at 60fps? It is just a odd thing to leave out of this comparison.

I do have both games and I enjoy both of them. They both do things differently, I just think in a sim type of game, having damage and visible damage is something that should of been covered as it does have an impact on performance and what they are each able to do.

 

[Kabuki Waq]

It depends on which LG Oled you are using too, the 2017 models have a higher peak brightness.

I'm just surprised because playing on my ks8000 the HDR implementation in GTS looked great.

 

[JackAubrey]

Where does this thing about the weather changing in Forza only if the player car is moving? Unless something recently changed, when I was playing the demo before the game came out, I would park the car in a corner and let the storm pass so I could race where the sun was rising. I clearly just sat on the track and the rain started to stop, then the cloud cover changed and sun started to peak out. Basically I was on Lap 1 towards the end where the Storm was heavy, stopped let the storm pass and where it looks like the last 1/2 of lap 2 where you get some sun and the nice lighting off the track and ended racing the last 1 1/2 laps in that condition. So not sure where this "car must be in motion" in order for the weather to change. Unless I'm mistaken.

Weather changes. But time of day seems to require player movement.

 

[Inf3cted_b3ast]

I'm just surprised because playing on my ks8000 the HDR implementation in GTS looked great.

Same here. looks stunning on my Ks8000.

 

[JackAubrey]

I do have both games and I enjoy both of them. They both do things differently, I just think in a sim type of game, having damage and visible damage is something that should of been covered as it does have an impact on performance and what they are each able to do.

Also - and I realise this is gameplay not graphics so not quite in the thread remit - but damaged AI cars will pit in Forza 7. Whether damaged by the player or another AI vehicle.

 

[wumster3000]

Forza 7 looks better

Better AA, Image quality yes. Overall, I don’t think it does. Some parts of Forza shine and make me question graphical fidelity a little - like when it rains, but I just can’t deny the overall graphical package of GTS. I think DF should talk about AA implementation. They completely missed that.

Edit: I’m playing on a PC with max setting hooked up to my OLED. Playing GTS on PS4 Pro.

 

[Fredrik]

Who'd have believed it, they both have their strengths and weaknesses but are both really good. Hell of a thing.

Sarcasm? I mean has it ever been in any other way?
Forza and Gran Turismo has been top quality AAA racers from day 1 of their first releases imo, they've had some minor issues occasionally that some people can't come with but generally speaking without exaggerating they've all been 8+/10 releases with top notch visuals and performance for the genre. The first iterations might not quite hit the mark when it comes to performance but they've more or less nailed it the last 5 iterations.

 

[Ploid 3.0]

Why use PC version? PC vs console exclusive game (pc vs console) is never equal I feel. You'd have to limit the hardware too but even then it's not the same, PC would usually just brute force stuff when you limit settings (the part about framerate at the beginning. I paused it right after he mentioned they are using the PC version for that comparison.)

 

[Hawk269]

Same here. looks stunning on my Ks8000.

I have LG E7 and the HDR in GTS is pretty damn amazing. I play Forza 7 on PC at 4k HDR as well and it looks pretty damn great as well, but I think the HDR in GTS is better. Like HDR movies, implementation is different across the board. There are certain tracks like the Nurb GT track after a rain storm and the sun starts to peak out in Forza 7 and the track is still wet it just looks amazing with HDR and nothing compares in GTS with that scenario. However, the overall HDR implementation in GTS is better as they have done a fantastic job with tail lights, head lights and other highlights. Both are very good and at times one is better than the other, but both are good just GTS imho is better with HDR.

If anything as a racing fan, my dream would be that the Team of PD and the T10 Team along with Play Ground game join forces and create the ultimate racing game "GT & Forza World Wide Racing"....you take the drive anywhere of Horizon, you do events and races in the open world and then drive to real world tracks to enter in circuit based races...once the race is done at the real world track, you select from the map the next location for a circuit race and you drive to it doing open world events and stuff like in Horizon. That would be the shit!!!

 

[LostDonkey]

Better AA, Image quality yes. Overall, I don’t think it does. Some parts of Forza shine and make me question graph licks fidelity a little - like when it rains, but I just can’t deny the overall graphical package of GTS. I think DF should talk about AA implementation. They completely missed that.

It's not just better AA and image quality though is it.

Better reflections, better shadows, better track textures, better weather effects, better cockpit reflections, better damage, less lod pop in....

It does alot of things better.

 

[sirap]

Forza looks amazing but GT's shading and HDR just blows me away.

 

[JackAubrey]

HDR on my LG LED TV is definitely better in GT Sport than Forza 7.

However I find the HDR in Forza Horizon 3 better than both.

 

[horkrux]

"The Masda badge"

The cars and lighting in GTS look very delicious. I still prefer the trees in Forza though. The aggressive LoD on their lighting/shading makes them stick out too much in GT.