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[Coulomb_Barrier]

How many polygons per sec? Genuine question.

two to three hundred.

 

[Virex]

I am more curious about how about 25 years doing a respectable strong job pushing the industry forward every time Sony is taking about something it is cause of concern and doubt vs American company saying the same or bolder and that eliciting hype and throwing critical reasoning out of the window... PS1 rocking it and Xbox starting to loom over the horizon? Concern... fear... nobody wins twice in a row... PS2 smashed records? Next gen is the interesting one, nobody wins three times in a row, MS is just starting to get serious... PS3 recovers and concludes the generation relay really well paving the way for PS4? Age of Sony is done, Durango is where it’s at, final nail in the coffin, etc... PS4 greatly outsells the competition and delivers tons of great software gems... <insert more F.U.D.>... tsk about the competition, how the next generation is really the interesting one and find some talking points to overblown and stick it to then anytime you can...

Not sure why... ...

Too long. Didn't read lol

 

[Panda1]

I’m fine with 11TFlops, anything higher is just icing on the cake full of awesome exclusives.

If Google Stadia is 10.2 and almost instant play too? If the next gen consoles are 12tf then the difference to the average gamer will be small. If they can price it at $499 and take a $50 loss maybe they could aim for 14tf, but what really will 2tf make in practical terms.
If you are fine with 11tf, and have fibre and play at lot online why bother with ps5?

 

[SonGoku]

It's simple : 22 GB of GDDR6 with 352 bits bus memory (20 Gbps) =>
20 Gbps / 8 = 2.5 Gbps
2.5 x 352 = 880 GB/s

Can you make the calculation with 24GB. (380 bus) I don't like 22GB

I meant with HBM and DDR4.

It doesn't, the "rumor" says its using slower salvageable parts hence the anemic bandwith

 

[longdi]

I am more curious about how about 25 years doing a respectable strong job pushing the industry forward every time Sony is taking about something it is cause of concern and doubt vs American company saying the same or bolder and that eliciting hype and throwing critical reasoning out of the window... PS1 rocking it and Xbox starting to loom over the horizon? Concern... fear... nobody wins twice in a row... PS2 smashed records? Next gen is the interesting one, nobody wins three times in a row, MS is just starting to get serious... PS3 recovers and concludes the generation relay really well paving the way for PS4? Age of Sony is done, Durango is where it’s at, final nail in the coffin, etc... PS4 greatly outsells the competition and delivers tons of great software gems... <insert more F.U.D.>... tsk about the competition, how the next generation is really the interesting one and find some talking points to overblown and stick it to then anytime you can...

Not sure why... ...

MS does seem very serious now, I am impressed with their X1x. Just like how PS4 impressed me.
I think MS may delay X2 a few months to get the power win over Sony.
I dont expect Sony to win handily again, thats not how console cycle works.

I also think the wildcard is Stadia and what sort of streaming MS / Sony can compete with. He who streams best may win the next round by a margin.

 

[SonGoku]

Vega 64 is 12.6TFs.

Can you share the timestamp where he talks about Vega 64 ballpark?

 

[baphomet]

Well if Vega 64 is 12.5 TF than we should expect higher since the consoles closed architecture leads to better performance in games.

Not how that works.

 

[SonGoku]

Not how that works.

Vega 64 performance on a more efficient arch on a closed box (low level api etc) should produce a better results
Just look at this: https://wccftech.com/amd-rx-vega-64-outperforms-nvidia-rtx-2080-by-14-in-vulkan-enabled-world-war-z/

 

[Panajev2001a]

MS does seem very serious now, I am impressed with their X1x. Just like how PS4 impressed me.
I think MS may delay X2 a few months to get the power win over Sony.
I dont expect Sony to win handily again, thats not how console cycle works.

I also think the wildcard is Stadia and what sort of streaming MS / Sony can compete with. He who streams best may win the next round by a margin.

Sure, the X is a well designed box, not trying to say it is shite or something lol. Just that no matter what Sony does the western gaming media has concern and casts doubt / calms hype on what they do: do they innovate the industry and represents truly disruptive force in gaming (PS1)? Cause of concern... watch out... competition has an ace up their sleeve...
Do they handily win the generation with tons of new software. (PS2 / PS4)? Ah, let’s focus on the potential for their competitors to upstage them next gen and look at how much they improved over the duration of the generation?
Do they go from a disastrous start to a global massive recovery? Curiously in this case the underdog coming from behind is not a cause of concern for the generation top dog... instead it is cause of concern for the upcoming generation where surely Sony would get trounced (see how the Xbox One is hailed in gaming media as a reason why next Xbox generation will rock while At the end of the PS360 generation the PS4 was predicted as the sore loser of the generation).

Over 25 years while certain sectors always called for their doom... ...

 

[Slings and Arrows]

Not an exact comparison but Xbox was able to more than double it’s TF in just four years when they released the X. By that logic they should be able to more than double the X’s power 4 years later using all new hardware. I know this is about the PS5 but I’m just applying the same logic.

The xbox one x wasn't an xbox one. It was a new console. Microsoft changed everything apart from the slow CPU.

It's easy to double power when you use newer hardware

 

[demigod]

If Google Stadia is 10.2 and almost instant play too? If the next gen consoles are 12tf then the difference to the average gamer will be small. If they can price it at $499 and take a $50 loss maybe they could aim for 14tf, but what really will 2tf make in practical terms.
If you are fine with 11tf, and have fibre and play at lot online why bother with ps5?

Most people do not have fiber and some people have 1tb data cap. Im on 75mbps and Project Stream did not look good and it was pixelated every now and then.

There are factors why people wouldn’t want Stadia. We don’t know the exaxt pricing on it and whether we own it or not. And also so far it has no exclusive.

So tell me, why would i want to bother with Stadia?

 

[Slings and Arrows]

Microsoft 2014 : Power of teh clouds.

Consumers: Lulz, neva gun happen.

Google: Stadia

Consumers: Google are going to be serious competition.

Why are google being taken seriously? They have the same problems now that Microsoft did in 2014, if not more problems because at least Microsoft had a local machine...

Stadia will tank.

 

[Woo-Fu]

Why are google being taken seriously? They have the same problems now that Microsoft did in 2014, if not more problems because at least Microsoft had a local machine...

Stadia will tank.

The big difference between the two proposals is that one was an optional feature that devs could implement. That's why it was panned. Well, that and it never amounted to squat. It was just another bullet point in an E3 powerpoint slide.

For Stadia the cloud isn't optional, it is the core aspect.

I'm also not seeing Stadia getting much more mindshare among gamers than the power of the cloud did from xbox gamers.

If, as you say, Stadia is being taken more seriously it is probably because the technology has had a generation to mature while the bandwidth required for it has reached more homes.

 

[Slings and Arrows]

The big difference between the two proposals is that one was an optional feature that devs could implement. That's why it was panned. Well, that and it never amounted to squat. It was just another bullet point in an E3 powerpoint slide.

For Stadia the cloud isn't optional, it is the core aspect.

I'm also not seeing Stadia getting much more mindshare among gamers than the power of the cloud did from xbox gamers.

If, as you say, Stadia is being taken more seriously it is probably because the technology has had a generation to mature while the bandwidth required for it has reached more homes.

To the last point. As it reached more homes? All I see is those with a good internet connection 10 years ago have an amazing connection now. Where as those with a crappy connection still have a relatively crappy connection.

I have heard the 'casuals/noobs/npcs' talk about stadia and how well it will work. Most seem to think that all game genres including multiplayer will work flawlessly on stadia and they will be able to whip out their phones for a quick sesh of Apex, while shitting.

Personally I think that's a fairy-tale. Yet, it's being swallowed as gospel while Microsoft was (rightfully) laughed out of the generation because of their cloud claims.

 

[longdi]

Sure, the X is a well designed box, not trying to say it is shite or something lol. Just that no matter what Sony does the western gaming media has concern and casts doubt / calms hype on what they do: do they innovate the industry and represents truly disruptive force in gaming (PS1)? Cause of concern... watch out... competition has an ace up their sleeve...
Do they handily win the generation with tons of new software. (PS2 / PS4)? Ah, let’s focus on the potential for their competitors to upstage them next gen and look at how much they improved over the duration of the generation?
Do they go from a disastrous start to a global massive recovery? Curiously in this case the underdog coming from behind is not a cause of concern for the generation top dog... instead it is cause of concern for the upcoming generation where surely Sony would get trounced (see how the Xbox One is hailed in gaming media as a reason why next Xbox generation will rock while At the end of the PS360 generation the PS4 was predicted as the sore loser of the generation).

Over 25 years while certain sectors always called for their doom... ...

I admit i was those who thought mobile gaming and the financial might of MS will trounced PS4 after Sony PS3 fucked up.
Who knew, MS fuck themselves up with Kinect, legendary.

Going next gen, i still think PS5 will start as the little guy with Apple and Google joining in. You often see companies getting left behind if they cannot catch up with the tech. I do see cloud servers, services and all, being much more deterministic for the next 5 years. This is the area where im afraid Sony just do not have enough resources and expertises to tackle. Making a powerful PS5, and following PS4 success model, might just not be enough this round. Once they are left behind, i can see Sony dropping out, like what happens to Xperia. There is no niche for Playstation, unlike Nintendo.

MS is 2nd, just slightly behind AWS
Google is next
Apple is fucking rich.

Massive massive capital expenditure is needed to survive the next wave.

 

[Woo-Fu]

To the last point. As it reached more homes? All I see is those with a good internet connection 10 years ago have an amazing connection now. Where as those with a crappy connection still have a relatively crappy connection.

Personally I think that's a fairy-tale. Yet, it's being swallowed as gospel while Microsoft was (rightfully) laughed out of the generation because of their cloud claims.

Definitely reach more homes, at least in the US. It isn't happening quickly but it is happening, if mostly simply due to plant upgrades as copper is retired in favor of fiber.

Another reason Stadia is being taken more seriously is because of Project Stream. People have already played games streamed from Google's servers. Another thing that that demonstrated is that whereas microsoft's version needed games designed from the ground up to use the "power of the cloud", Project Stream doesn't. People were playing AC:Odyssey, I believe.

 

[demigod]

I admit i was those who thought mobile gaming and the financial might of MS will trounced PS4 after Sony PS3 fucked up.
Who knew, MS fuck themselves up with Kinect, legendary.

Going next gen, i still think PS5 will start as the little guy with Apple and Google joining in. You often see companies getting left behind if they cannot catch up with the tech. I do see cloud servers, services and all, being much more deterministic for the next 5 years. This is the area where im afraid Sony just do not have enough resources and expertises to tackle. Making a powerful PS5, and following PS4 success model, might just not be enough this round. Once they are left behind, i can see Sony dropping out, like what happens to Xperia. There is no niche for Playstation, unlike Nintendo.

MS is 2nd, just slightly behind AWS
Google is next
Apple is fucking rich.

Massive massive capital expenditure is needed to survive the next wave.

Lol, PSNow would like a word with you.

 

[Panajev2001a]

I admit i was those who thought mobile gaming and the financial might of MS will trounced PS4 after Sony PS3 fucked up.

Thanks for being candid, appreciated. My point with this, and the “MS fucked up with Kinect” would be that it does not seem to acknowledge anything positive done by Sony beyond not fucking up worse than the competition... Xbox One adds BC for selected titles and offers a relaunched new expensive SKU and they are a legendary underdog, crouching tiger ready for the leap next generation while PS3 is still a fuckup.

PS3 started as a fuckup, but recovered way way better than Xbox One did. Late generation PS3 titles, even third party ones, were much more competitive with Xbox 360 ones than OG Xbox One (the S already had a CPU frequency upgrade) vs PS4 today even by DF benchmarking videos.

I think Sony very early cloud gaming investments years before the competition started will pay off and we should hope so... having Google or Apple owning the market would not be completely beneficial IMHO.

 

[Slings and Arrows]

Definitely reach more homes, at least in the US. It isn't happening quickly but it is happening, if mostly simply due to plant upgrades as copper is retired in favor of fiber.

Another reason Stadia is being taken more seriously is because of Project Stream. People have already played games streamed from Google's servers. Another thing that that demonstrated is that whereas microsoft's version needed games designed from the ground up to use the "power of the cloud", Project Stream doesn't. People were playing AC:Odyssey, I believe.

Google need a physical console market to be thriving otherwise they won't have a business model? How strange.

 

[Evilms]

Can you make the calculation with 24GB. (380 bus) I don't like 22GB

It doesn't, the "rumor" says its using slower salvageable parts hence the anemic bandwith

24 GB of GDDR6 with 384 bits bus memory

If (16 Gbps) =>
16 Gbps / 8 = 2 Gbps
2 x 384 = 768 GB/s

If (18 Gbps) =>
18 Gbps / 8 = 2.25 Gbps
2.25 x 384 = 864 GB/s

If (20 Gbps) =>
20 Gbps / 8 = 2.5 Gbps
2.5 x 384 = 960 GB/s

 

[longdi]

Lol, PSNow would like a word with you.

PSNow and Vue, both nobody cared enough about.
I am afraid Sony needs to sell us why we should subbed another account when we already have android/ios or even Windows. Thankfully Windows is in the same nobody cares as Sony services.
If Sony is adopting the same model, selling us a good PS5 hardware, im also afraid they will get pincher attack by X2, which i suspect will be more powerful at same price...
Last gen i laughed at the cloud dream, but today, Azure/Aws/Google servers are every where! 5G will start just as nextgen starts. Even Nvidia gamestream works pretty well in Asia.
Streaming/cloud services will take off for sure.

I will stick with my same prediction last gen, Sony is doom again.
Unless Sony partner with Netflix or Disney+, 1 year PSN comes with 1 year movie services.
Otherwise, maintaining multiple accounts is tiring.

 

[demigod]

PSNow and Vue, both nobody cared enough about.
I am afraid Sony needs to sell us why we should subbed another account when we already have android/ios or even Windows. Thankfully Windows is in the same nobody cares as Sony services.
If Sony is adopting the same model, selling us a good PS5 hardware, im also afraid they will get pincher attack by X2, which i suspect will be more powerful at same price...
Last gen i laughed at the cloud dream, but today, Azure/Aws/Google servers are every where! 5G will start just as nextgen starts. Even Nvidia gamestream works pretty well in Asia.
Streaming/cloud services will take off for sure.

I will stick with my same prediction last gen, Sony is doom again.
Unless Sony partner with Netflix or Disney+, 1 year PSN comes with 1 year movie services.
Otherwise, maintaining multiple accounts is tiring.

Nothing but assumptions. PSNow nobody cares about yet its the number one in revenue currently. You should stop while you can.

 

[Chozofication_]

That would be incredibly disappointing since it's only 8GB of HBM2, the rest is 16GB of DDR4 at 102GB/s which is really, really slow for a gaming machine.

Actually that wouldn't be bad at all in terms of speed. Having dedicated vram has its own benefits.

The idea would be the hbm2 is entirely for the gpu, and the cpu wouldn't need to dip in that. Then the ddr4 is just gravy. With good color compression, 102gb/s isn't too shabby.

But I think a unified pool of gddr6 on a 384 bit bus makes the most sense for the sake of simplicity.

 

[joe_zazen]

If Google Stadia is 10.2 and almost instant play too? If the next gen consoles are 12tf then the difference to the average gamer will be small. If they can price it at $499 and take a $50 loss maybe they could aim for 14tf, but what really will 2tf make in practical terms.
If you are fine with 11tf, and have fibre and play at lot online why bother with ps5?

I have to admit that I am going to get a google controller and if they offer enough to keep me engaged for the 10-12 hours I play per week & my internet is strong enough, Idk if I will get a console. Digging out $500 + $ for a game or two + tax + ps+....Yeah, Sony will need to work to get me into a store to drop $800.

And who knows, maybe MS will get my business if they have a $99 option to try out their cloud garbage.

 

[Gamerguy84]

I am more curious about how despite about 25 years doing a respectable strong job pushing the industry forward, every time Sony is talking about something it is cause of concern and doubt vs American company saying the same or bolder stuff and that eliciting hype and throwing critical reasoning out of the window...

PS1 rocking it and Xbox starting to loom over the horizon? Concern... fear... nobody wins twice in a row... PS2 smashed records? Next gen is the interesting one, nobody wins three times in a row, MS is just starting to get serious... PS3 recovers and concludes the generation really really well paving the way for PS4? Age of Sony is done, Durango is where it’s at, final nail in the coffin, etc... PS4 greatly outsells the competition and delivers tons of great software gems... <insert more F.U.D.>... tsk about the competition, how the next generation is really the interesting one and find some talking points to overblown and stick it to then anytime you can...

Not sure why... ...

Very well said.

 

[Woo-Fu]

Google need a physical console market to be thriving otherwise they won't have a business model? How strange.

Well, as far as I can tell they tested with a PC game, not the console version. The console market could disappear, Stadia could work just fine with PC games. Would have even less competition.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Well, as far as I can tell they tested with a PC game, not the console version. The console market could disappear, Stadia could work just fine with PC games. Would have even less competition.

If the console market disappeared, that would not be good for the PC market either.

 

[Panda1]

Well, as far as I can tell they tested with a PC game, not the console version. The console market could disappear, Stadia could work just fine with PC games. Would have even less competition.

Thats like saying when the VHS market disappeared people stopped watching film. NO one cares about the console - its just the way to access the media.

 

[SonGoku]

Over 25 years while certain sectors always called for their doom..

Same with Nintendo, the only reason gaming "press" is cutting them some slack lately its because the soyboy journalists love their new toy (switch) Nintendo made.

Not an exact comparison but Xbox was able to more than double it’s TF in just four years when they released the X. By that logic they should be able to more than double the X’s power 4 years later using all new hardware. I know this is about the PS5 but I’m just applying the same logic.

While i do agree next gen should be 12TF minimum, you shouldn't use the xbone as baseline for comparison, its TF count was hindered by the fact SRAM and the move engines consumed a bunch of silicon

 

[SonGoku]

24 GB of GDDR6 with 384 bits bus memory

If (16 Gbps) =>
16 Gbps / 8 = 2 Gbps
2 x 384 = 768 GB/s

If (18 Gbps) =>
18 Gbps / 8 = 2.25 Gbps
2.25 x 384 = 864 GB/s

If (20 Gbps) =>
20 Gbps / 8 = 2.5 Gbps
2.5 x 384 = 960 GB/s

When are these 2GB chips gonna be available btw?

 

[Meh3D]

Thanks for being candid, appreciated. My point with this, and the “MS fucked up with Kinect” would be that it does not seem to acknowledge anything positive done by Sony beyond not fucking up worse than the competition... Xbox One adds BC for selected titles and offers a relaunched new expensive SKU and they are a legendary underdog, crouching tiger ready for the leap next generation while PS3 is still a fuckup.

PS3 started as a fuckup, but recovered way way better than Xbox One did. Late generation PS3 titles, even third party ones, were much more competitive with Xbox 360 ones than OG Xbox One (the S already had a CPU frequency upgrade) vs PS4 today even by DF benchmarking videos.

I think Sony very early cloud gaming investments years before the competition started will pay off and we should hope so... having Google or Apple owning the market would not be completely beneficial IMHO.

I understand the frustration; sometimes it's just best to let that go. You can be confident someone, somewhere, will be talking spoiling something for someone. I think the saying is "look! there is someone wrong on the internet." I personally love discussion but get frustrated when discussion is shut down because someone else has 99.99 factually correct "the inside source", is verified, or owns an Nvidia card etc... I just try to focus on the good (and interesting) discussion.

Speaking of which, maybe should start a thread on Jaguar vs Zen 2.

 

[Evilms]

When are these 2GB chips gonna be available btw?

The nvidia RTX Titan has 24 GB of GDDR6 (2 GB x 12) so 2 GB chips are normally available.

 

[Virex]

I admit i was those who thought mobile gaming and the financial might of MS will trounced PS4 after Sony PS3 fucked up.
Who knew, MS fuck themselves up with Kinect, legendary.

Going next gen, i still think PS5 will start as the little guy with Apple and Google joining in. You often see companies getting left behind if they cannot catch up with the tech. I do see cloud servers, services and all, being much more deterministic for the next 5 years. This is the area where im afraid Sony just do not have enough resources and expertises to tackle. Making a powerful PS5, and following PS4 success model, might just not be enough this round. Once they are left behind, i can see Sony dropping out, like what happens to Xperia. There is no niche for Playstation, unlike Nintendo.

MS is 2nd, just slightly behind AWS
Google is next
Apple is fucking rich.

Massive massive capital expenditure is needed to survive the next wave.

the fuck are you talking about?

 

[Virex]

Same with Nintendo, the only reason gaming "press" is cutting them some slack lately its because the soyboy journalists love their new toy (switch) Nintendo made.

While i do agree next gen should be 12TF minimum, you shouldn't use the xbone as baseline for comparison, its TF count was hindered by the fact SRAM and the move engines consumed a bunch of silicon

what the hell is up with all these people and their mouths open when there's a Nintendo Switch involved? I see it everywhere.

 

[IceManCat]

The xbox one x wasn't an xbox one. It was a new console. Microsoft changed everything apart from the slow CPU.

It's easy to double power when you use newer hardware

Same with Nintendo, the only reason gaming "press" is cutting them some slack lately its because the soyboy journalists love their new toy (switch) Nintendo made.

While i do agree next gen should be 12TF minimum, you shouldn't use the xbone as baseline for comparison, its TF count was hindered by the fact SRAM and the move engines consumed a bunch of silicon

So you are saying it'll be more than double

 

[Fake]

Microsoft embrace the GDDR5 and even devs are ignoring ESRAM so I don't know why people are bringing this to the table.

 

[SonGoku]

So you are saying it'll be more than double

For sure, maybe slightly more than double but nowhere close to triple.