LuvOfThaGame
Banned
The effort you give to these long and bloated posts are all for not. X drops a split second while PS4P is struggling throughout. You really need to stop your disingenuous posting shtick.
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Digital Foundry - Metro Exodus: PS4/PRO/Xbox One/Xbox X
- Thread starter Fake
- Start date
thelastword
Banned
I don't think I ever said the PRO is performing better......I'm I writing in another language? I said XBONEX is falling to the lowest framerate amongst mid gen consoles and I said that XBONES performs the best......The weakest GPU is performing better over 3 better GPU's in a GPU bound game......
DynamiteCop!
Banned
This shouldn't be some mystery, there's a multitude of reasons these things could be happening. The Xbox One/S has a higher frequency CPU so in some cases that can bear fruit, especially when the game has the ability to scale resolution dropping lower which puts more credence on CPU resources.
The outliers here in terms of CPU ability are both the PS4 and the Pro, and the Pro commonly runs into bottlenecks in the memory interface which allows the X to scale resolutions 80-120% higher. It's pretty sad that you're latching onto a hitched drop to 18 FPS when clearly that's an anomaly not indicative of the general performance profile. If it were sustained then you would have something to go on but it's not so you don't. The PS4 and Pro are suffering from sustained drops, neither the X nor S are.
It's an apples to oranges comparison with the PS4 and the Xbox One/S, one seems to be locked to 1080p and can't really handle it while the other scales down to sub-900p to mitigate frame loss in visually demanding sequences. The PS4 clearly needs some kind of scaling, obviously it doesn't need to be as aggressive as it is on the Xbox One as its framerate is in the upper bounds but it does need it.
As far as the Pro is concerned it's in general a very handicapped system and there's a lot of room for things to go sideways.
It's got a 2.1 Ghz Jaguar the same as the base but no architectural improvements so its IPC is the same. The X is at 2.3 Ghz but Microsoft customized the architecture and made IPC improvements plus memory interface improvements which stack on top of its frequency increase boding a more effective CPU. If the X were clocked at 2.1 Ghz the same as the Pro its CPU would out-perform the Pro's. In terms of the memory sub-system and GPU Sony effectively mirrored the base GPU and overclocked it from 800 Mhz to 911 Mhz which results in a 128% compute surplus. However they overclocked their memory to 6800 Mhz from 5500 Mhz which is only an increase in effective bandwidth of 24% but it's only 24% because it doesn't have interface improvements and a bus increase which would net properly scaled bandwidth gains.
The X and Pro both run GDDR5 6800, it's the same exact memory. The X however has proper interface accounting improvements and a larger bus size to see an effective increase in bandwidth of 46% over the Pro. As great as the system design of the base PlayStation 4 was, that design ideology did not carry over to the design of the Pro, it was an engineering mishap.
Things like what is happening with Metro Exodus are the result of those questionable design decisions. If you want to get down to brass tacks the Pro shares more in common with the base Xbox One than it does the PS4 in terms of engineering competency.
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thelastword
Banned
There's no need to go into such intricacies if we see compromises on all consoles......None of these consoles run this amazingly.....One of them just run it better, curiously it's the weakest one.....
Alpha and volumetrics seem to be too high rez on PS4/PRO, they need to tone it down.........XBONES already has lower effects quality and touches 864p, but perhaps 720p will give even better framerate.....Notice how when all the werewolves/dogs were on screen XBONES fell lower than base PS4....And of course XBONEX has to lower it's rez to avoid dropping into the teens...
Anyone who thinks this is the only instance framerate will fall on XBONEX are not paying attention, there are much more tasking scenes in this game, and different environments vary largely.....This game needs a much more thorough framerate test to get a better sense of performance, but as it stands for now, XBONES is the better performer overall.......However, what's more important is that this game must be patched ASAP, especially on PS4/PRO/XBONEX.......Even XBONES can benefit from some optimization still...
Fake
Member
Any word of gamma level problems fixed on Xbox? Black crush still there?
DynamiteCop!
Banned
There is a need to go into intricacies because it explains a lot about why things could be happening, system design and hardware effectiveness can paint a picture of why certain systems collapse in specific instances while others do not.
Yeah the Xbox One renders those volumetrics out at 33% while the PS4 is at 50%. He said the Pro and X render them at somewhere under 1080p but he didn't get specific, he also in next sentence said its directly tied to render resolution so he kind of contradicted himself because the Pro and X render at completely different resolutions, who knows where they actually fall on X and Pro.
I also don't know what you're talking about with the X and lowering its resolution "to avoid dropping into the teens", the X resolution doesn't change, it's fixed at 3840x2160. He specifically said and I quote "The outlook is that framerate drops are the sacrifice rather than dynamically shifting the resolution as with base Xbox One", so that's a curious lie you just tried to insert in there.
What you're doing in this post is trying to leverage that all systems are really having problems in this game to diminish the issues seen on Sony's consoles when the reality is they're in two completely separate brackets of acceptability. It's weak damage control, we all know who you are man lol, you don't need to mask it.
The S and X really don't have issues, it seems to be one off and rare occurrences while the latter is a more commonality in problematic and sustained render buckling. If they were left unpatched on the X and S they would be fine as is, that's not the case for the PS4 or Pro, some concessions need to be made. The S and X can be reigned in tighter with optimization around existing settings, the PS4 and Pro are going to need some settings altered and then optimization to be worked out.
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Redneckerz
Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
I have to give it to 4A for the game having such a superb visual makeup. It really hits that uncanny cinematic rendering feel that The Order 1886 also had. And the lighting is drop dead gorgeous, carefully crafted at the right places.
In terms of performance, it is indeed a surprise that base XBO runs the game the best, but dynamic res seemingly helps out a lot here. However, all in all every console version has rather decent performance, the culprit is usually when a lot of alpha (smoke) is on screen.
This is nothing new, by the way. If there is one thing all consoles do take a hit upon, its heavy alpha effects, even when GPU overhead should be enough to push through. The thing is, alpha effects also play a heavy part on CPU and this is where games with heavy usage of this drop performance. We know this for a few years now, but the CPU is the issue here. Jaguar simply can't cope with alpha effects on that scale, no matter if its an evolved platform like the X or the base consoles (Although admittly base XBO has less issues in this regard due to the fog resolution being dropped aswell).
Knowing 4A's craftsmanship in bringing their own engine to consoles, i'd say that with Exodus we are effectively seeing the limitations of the current console platforms in play. Heavy alpha is going to bog consoles down as that is apparent in multiple games. Even as a surpreme game on console, Exodus is one of those titles you could argue tries to push a next-gen now experience - Providing a hint of visual make up for the next generation, but trying to do this on current-gen hardware. Cyberpunk 2077 will be a similar case, as was Crysis 3 for PS360 before.
The only other curious note is the crushed blacks issue. Xbox had this in the beginning of this generation and then it was gone for a few years, but with Crackdown 3 and now Exodus being mentioned that crushed blacks are a thing again, something must have gone wrong on the SDK front at Microsoft.
PS4 base performance on the other hand is a curious admission. There seems to be a tangent in games now where even base PS4 is going to drop either resolution or performance, with Apex Legends and now Exodus, from its usual 1080p standard. Base XBO already suffered this fate earlier on, but to see PS4 slowly creeping away from performance is a telltale sign that the current generation of consoles is hitting its limits.
And i do think it warrants the downgrade. The visual upgrade over the Redux versions is obvious and the quality of materials is significant. It tries to and in my eyes succeeds in capturing that CGI-lite look only a few games have captured for years, although my own playthrough last year did show a visual subset below from what i am seeing here.
Its an impressive feat to say the least.
In that sense they are more akin to Crytek, delivering benchmark games on both PC and consoles.
You really ought to stop looking for alternative explanation when its really just common sense. The simplest explanation usually is the correct one.
It reads like a personal dissatisfaction at the entire existence of Digital Foundry, you know? Always criticizing the way they do their work and then saying you are going to wait for the other analysts.. implying there should be animosity inbetween them when they themselves have stated to be colleagues.
We get it, you prefer NXgamer, Candyland, and VGtech over DF. Just stop with the personal antagonizing you have against the DF team. Its not entertaining, its not relevant to your points, and all it does is making you look like they killed your cat in your youth and this is your revenge.
Its like me telling Lewis Hamilton how he should drive a F1 Car just because i play the game every now and then with a steering wheel on PC. Its complete and utterly misplaced arrogance and that's what a lot of people stings. Combine that with the other pet peeve of never addressing these things and you can understand why people have an issue with it.
You see, his actual point isn't even that unreasonable. Its how the commentary is wrapped and packaged that is the problem, and without customer support, too. That's the best analogy i can give you.
In terms of performance, it is indeed a surprise that base XBO runs the game the best, but dynamic res seemingly helps out a lot here. However, all in all every console version has rather decent performance, the culprit is usually when a lot of alpha (smoke) is on screen.
This is nothing new, by the way. If there is one thing all consoles do take a hit upon, its heavy alpha effects, even when GPU overhead should be enough to push through. The thing is, alpha effects also play a heavy part on CPU and this is where games with heavy usage of this drop performance. We know this for a few years now, but the CPU is the issue here. Jaguar simply can't cope with alpha effects on that scale, no matter if its an evolved platform like the X or the base consoles (Although admittly base XBO has less issues in this regard due to the fog resolution being dropped aswell).
Knowing 4A's craftsmanship in bringing their own engine to consoles, i'd say that with Exodus we are effectively seeing the limitations of the current console platforms in play. Heavy alpha is going to bog consoles down as that is apparent in multiple games. Even as a surpreme game on console, Exodus is one of those titles you could argue tries to push a next-gen now experience - Providing a hint of visual make up for the next generation, but trying to do this on current-gen hardware. Cyberpunk 2077 will be a similar case, as was Crysis 3 for PS360 before.
The only other curious note is the crushed blacks issue. Xbox had this in the beginning of this generation and then it was gone for a few years, but with Crackdown 3 and now Exodus being mentioned that crushed blacks are a thing again, something must have gone wrong on the SDK front at Microsoft.
PS4 base performance on the other hand is a curious admission. There seems to be a tangent in games now where even base PS4 is going to drop either resolution or performance, with Apex Legends and now Exodus, from its usual 1080p standard. Base XBO already suffered this fate earlier on, but to see PS4 slowly creeping away from performance is a telltale sign that the current generation of consoles is hitting its limits.
So because one game performs better on the lowest common denominatior, we need to build a PC instead? The only logical solution to posts like these is to not make them in the first place. Or is this some flimsy attempt at a drive by?
You don't need an analyst to confirm this - RTX drops frames, period. Its raytracing. It carries a performance penalty. Waiting for other analysts to confirm common sense is reaching even for you, no?
Redux was a rework using an older tech build of 4A and without PBR materials. They also changed lighting in the Redux, some would argue the originals had better lighting and i would agree.
And i do think it warrants the downgrade. The visual upgrade over the Redux versions is obvious and the quality of materials is significant. It tries to and in my eyes succeeds in capturing that CGI-lite look only a few games have captured for years, although my own playthrough last year did show a visual subset below from what i am seeing here.
Its an impressive feat to say the least.
I disagree. Exodus is a strong narrative experience with an emphasis on exploration. In that framework, 30 fps is adequate - Its not as fast-paced as say Apex Legends.
Oh good, OnQ123 is redeemed at least!
The Metro titles always had their homes as PC-first titles. Yes 2033 came to X360 and Last Light was PS360 (I own both) but 4A also went the extra mile with PC versions.
In that sense they are more akin to Crytek, delivering benchmark games on both PC and consoles.
There is no extra custom hardware here. XBO simply runs that scene better because smoke resolution is dropped, thus alpha effects are a lower strain on the CPU (And base XBO has a higher clocked CPU than base PS4, mind you)
You really ought to stop looking for alternative explanation when its really just common sense. The simplest explanation usually is the correct one.
I really love your narrative of bringing up other games (that aren't relevant to this one but hey) to prove there must be something up with how DF words things and say things.
It reads like a personal dissatisfaction at the entire existence of Digital Foundry, you know? Always criticizing the way they do their work and then saying you are going to wait for the other analysts.. implying there should be animosity inbetween them when they themselves have stated to be colleagues.
We get it, you prefer NXgamer, Candyland, and VGtech over DF. Just stop with the personal antagonizing you have against the DF team. Its not entertaining, its not relevant to your points, and all it does is making you look like they killed your cat in your youth and this is your revenge.
There is nothing entertaining from someone with no level of expertise that is going to tell people who churn out daily quality content and who work in the industry themselves how they should do their jobs. Its obtuse.
Its like me telling Lewis Hamilton how he should drive a F1 Car just because i play the game every now and then with a steering wheel on PC. Its complete and utterly misplaced arrogance and that's what a lot of people stings. Combine that with the other pet peeve of never addressing these things and you can understand why people have an issue with it.
You see, his actual point isn't even that unreasonable. Its how the commentary is wrapped and packaged that is the problem, and without customer support, too. That's the best analogy i can give you.
Oh trust me, his misplaced arrogance into telling DF how they should do their work is definitely harmful.
Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
thelastword
Banned
Are you trying to justify XBONES's better performance over PS4 and PRO? Where it even outshines XBONEX on the performance front as well.....The most unique architecture in the lot belongs to the PRO......We have no idea as to how 4A is leveraging any of these consoles...What we can judge is what we see, it's why I said alpha effects seems to be too high rez on PS4/PRO compared to the other versions, so that has to be toned down....That's one measure.....Stop pretending that XBONES having better performance over all the other consoles is not odd and an outlier, which defintely speaks to a case that needs better optimization on the other consoles....Perhaps XBONES got more optimization to ensure it runs as best as it could and the other versions, especially the PS versions got less love.....They have marketing with XBOX anyway....
Yet, I agree that each case is different and we judge and anlalyze on a case by case basis, as we're doing here.... For a game like Ace Combat, there were specific enhancements on PS4 based on it's architecture, For F1 2017, there were speciifc enhancements just the same......Yet there is nothing in XBONES that should cause it to perform over PS4/PRO and XBONEX.....This is the biggest sign that this game needs to be patched on PS systems and even XBONEX.....for better perf...
As I said, there's alot we don't have specifics on, that's why it's kinda jumping the gun to go through intricacies of console design, which proves futile in most cases anyway......Yet here, is not one of those moment where we discuss intricacies, and that's just based on the results alone.....XBONES wins here and that's not normal.....So you're trying to justify results on what's clear to be a game that needs some work/optimization is not exactly reasonable or kosher....
That's like saying XBONES should run RER2 at 1080p resolution just like PS4 and have a 20fps uptick in framerate over PS4.....You don't use these edge cases to justify such anamolies, especially when it's a GPU bound situation.....PS4 falling 20fps below XBONES in that game at the same resolution with heavy (alpha on screen) cannot be justified in anyway by the XBONES's design......The same applies here......And it's worse when the XBONES is outperforming mid gen consoles as well, when it is being slaughtered in every game which came before this one, by base PS4....
Lower resolution to maintain higher framerates and higher mins....If the XBONEX is dropping to 18 fps, then there are scenarios which tank FPS clearly, you want to avoid that because that dip is too severe...
Also, taking a hard stance that this is locked 4K on XBONEX is not something you want to do so early......You want the accolades and gloat that comes with 4K, but don't want to accept the deficits that also comes with it on XBONEX hardware at times....You can't have both....If XBONEX is 4K native at all times, then it's the reason why it's framerate can fall so low at a moments notice...Even then, there's no sense pushing this is native, when it could very well be dynamic like many XBONEX games and what clearly is a dynamic resolution on XBONES, it's clearly in the engine, it was in the remastered games too.....It's also possible that XBONES maybe the only version where DR works atm? A possibility no? Aren't these fairer assessments than going the XBONES CPU is better than PS4 and PRO's bandwidth is too low, at least source your assesments from what you see in the video.....As opposed to making general statements on architecture for a game that is not properly optimized on all consoles....
At least with APEX, I can pinpoint the scenes where PRO performs better and can identify some of them as CPU bound scenarios, which goes with what 4A themselves said about the cpus in these base consoles or even the mid gen consoles for that matter....You can extract more from PS CPU's because of the XBOX OS and API....
So the XBONES is performing better than PS4/PRO/XBONEX, but you cite that it's only an issue with PS consoles.......So you want me to accept that it's the PS systems fault and XBOX hardware is just better designed.....Just like folk wanted to convince me that RE-R2 was running just how it aught to on PS4, that AC Unity could not run at a higher rez on base PS4, that GTAV could not run better on PS4 because it was CPU bound and the XBONES cpu was better, but yet, that was patched later anyway for smoother performance.....So where is XBONES's better CPU in APEX, Anthem and the list goes on, in a million other games? Where is XBONEX's better CPU in Apex? Yet, let's deal in the here and now.......You esteem that the most graphcially intensive multiplat game to release so far this year and for a while too, is justified in performing better on XBONES over all other more powerful consoles? Ok I get it.....Yet, personally, I will want better performance on PS systems because they are more capable than XBONES.....If you are satisfied with XBONES/X performance, that's great, I'm not playing these versions so I'm not too affected by that, but If I were on XBONEX, I'd take lower rez to avoid drops to 18fps.......
stranno
Member
D
dark10x
Video is still in h264 so the compression looks awful.
Go to "My videos", click on video's dropdown list and "Enhancements", then just click SAVE and the video will be converted to vp9 (and far better quality, of course).
The game looks great but there are some amazingly crappy details like this.
Go to "My videos", click on video's dropdown list and "Enhancements", then just click SAVE and the video will be converted to vp9 (and far better quality, of course).
The game looks great but there are some amazingly crappy details like this.
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You shouldn't focus on the TF number when there is a architectural difference because the game could be reaching a bottle neck in the other systems while not running into that problem on Xbox One OG/S
That forces VP9? It always eventually goes VP9 but it seems to take extra time. It’s been extra slow this week.D dark10x Video is still in h264 so the compression looks awful.
Go to "My videos", click on video's dropdown list and "Enhancements", then just click SAVE and the video will be converted to vp9 (and far better quality, of course).
The game looks great but there are some amazingly crappy details like this.
stranno
Member
Yep, it forces VP9
thelastword
Banned
So what problem is it running into exactly? In how many games have this been exhibited? If it's such an architectural difference, that such architectural differences transcends even PRO and XBONEX? Which are all superior to XBONES in every way.....
Of course, stranger still, that XBONES cannot flex it's architectural muscle in any other game, but the most GPU intensive multiplat game at the minute.....Where even high end GPU's fall below 30fps in some scenes....
It could be the fact that ESRAM has lower latency plus the fact that it is running effects at lower resolutions.
Every game isn't the same so there is a chance that you can run into situations where Xbox One design works out better for a game.
The PlayStation consoles have a lower CPU clock than their respective Xbox consoles. There is your difference that can be a reason for better fps.
Which high-end GPUs specifically?
GoldenEye98
posts news as their odd job
It's pretty clear that Micro$oft paid the developers to disable FP16.
Golgo 13
The Man With The Golden Dong
It’s funny reading these threads how much GAF has turned into a system wars board (which I admit is still better than a political slant to everything on other forums).
Don’t get me wrong, I love this forum, but to see the usual cast of clowns come in and preach their nonsense is getting tiring.
I always thought NeoGaf was for adults.
Don’t get me wrong, I love this forum, but to see the usual cast of clowns come in and preach their nonsense is getting tiring.
I always thought NeoGaf was for adults.
Fake
Member
VP9 all the time. Anw, any idea why the problem with gamma causing black crush? Is this a problem with Xbox OS overwall? I remember Xbox 360 having the same issues with some games.
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Ha ha, I can see certain folks saying that. To be we know they do use it!
JLB
Banned
Please man, stop derailing the thread. Its tedius. Have a nice day.
Shmunter
Member
No mention off it.
Shmunter
Member
I would say you’re drawn to the topic. Because personally is see plenty of verity and topics
DynamiteCop!
Banned
It's not odd when it's put into context, the weaker GPU system scaling its resolution back to 64% of 1080p, has a faster CPU and is also running volumetrics at a lower resolution explains its ability to best hold its framerate. It's not some shocking revelation, it contextually makes sense.
See the previous reply.
I'll confidently say its native on the PS4, Pro and X, I have no problem with that. The only reason they even brought up the possibility of resolution scaling is because one system uses it, not because they found any evidence of it whatsoever on the other three systems; they didn't so there's no reason to suspect it's there.
Even on powerful PC's you'll get points in a game where it can hitch and hits a dramatically lower point than what is typical but quickly resolves to normal tolerances. A drop to 18 FPS for a split second when the remained constant outside of that immediate instance is a locked 30 on both sides isn't a big deal. If it's dropping like that and hanging like that there's a problem, if it's happening regularly there's a problem but that's not what's happening with the X, it's an anomalous situation. That is what's happening on the PlayStation systems though so they need to be better configured to eliminate bottlenecks.
Yes, because again context is important. It's not just about the hardware but also the game engine and how you have the game configured. The Xbox One S code seems to be near perfectly configured where it doesn't really hit any choke points in the system. The Xbox One X seems to nearly mirror that level of configuration and result even with a 300% to 525% resolution increase. It performs very good in its stated configuration.
The PS4 and Pro do not, they need more work. The other two don't need anything, sure they could further benefit a marginal bit from some additional optimization but they don't need it. They perform ideally enough to where nothing can be considered problematic.
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
I thought you said they were boring?
Lort
Banned
Thelastword is always TLDR.
Noone really cares but you if theres some slight performance difference .. and since you do .. why bother arguing when its a lost cause such as Metro?
The ability of the programmer and game design make a huge difference to performance.. thats why BF5 can look better than almost every other game AND have destructible environments and lots of alpha,... thats why GTA5 and RDR 2 look amazing AND have true open world. They literally spend 10s of millions on their engines ( and to a lesser extent naughty dog and 343).
A small peformance difference is usually just better optimisation, if you want to talk about the architecutre of the consoles you need to look at broader trends...
Xbox > ps2
Xbox 360 > ps3
Xbox one x > ps4 pro > ps4 > xbox one
Blaming the developer totally missunderstands the point as every game could run “better” with more time or better hardware design. The whole reason the ps4 has done well is it was easy to get good performance out of it leaving more time for more optimisation .. exactly like the xbox 360.
The next gen will be almost identical ( compred to previous generations of change) hardware.. games will launch with 80% efficiency instead of 50%.
Shmunter
Member
Rygeist
Banned
Found the Pony shill
FullTilt18
Banned
It's a shame developers weren't targeting 60fps.