MS messaging is working. The more they sow the seeds of a premium device and 'high end', you'll normalise the potential of it being $499 or even $599 apparently. So when it is revealed at $399 you'll get a nice wave of positivity due to the lower than expected price. And that might also be enough to carry you over any negativity on the specs
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[Digital Foundry] New Scorpio Spec Leak: ESRAM Gone, GPU Features Revealed
- Thread starter Hoo-doo
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MS messaging is working. The more they sow the seeds of a premium device and 'high end', you'll normalise the potential of it being $499 or even $599 apparently. So when it is revealed at $399 you'll get a nice wave of positivity due to the lower than expected price. And that might also be enough to carry you over any negativity on the specs
Tell that to MS shareholders. MS is the company to outperform the markets.
Just making profit is not good enough I'm afraid.
This, exactly. It's just great marketing ... under-promise by setting up the exceptions for a premium $500 price and then over-deliver by shipping at $400.
Chobel
Member
Why they're so aggressive in their bundles and deals?
And they do care if they got significantly outsold by their competition, one PS console sold is potentially one less Xbox console sold.
The only way Scorpio is getting any traction is if it's $399 or less. Anything over $400 and it'll be dead in the water.
The fact that it won't be a next gen console will put off most people. Usually a new gen console over $400 struggles so imagine one that's only an upgrade.
MS would be crazy to launch that thing at anything over $399.
The fact that it won't be a next gen console will put off most people. Usually a new gen console over $400 struggles so imagine one that's only an upgrade.
MS would be crazy to launch that thing at anything over $399.
MonkeyMan29
Member
Looking at the recent quarterly results from MS I don't think that profit per console sold is a huge factor for them. Hardware profit was down, but digital sales revenue was incredible. I don't recall the exact number, but to me it was pretty impressive.
Possibly sell at a loss, and generate profit via software, digital purchases and XBL, after all, they are aiming to be a software and services company.
Scorpio is just another place to purchase and play Xbox games.
Just my two cents.
Possibly sell at a loss, and generate profit via software, digital purchases and XBL, after all, they are aiming to be a software and services company.
Scorpio is just another place to purchase and play Xbox games.
Just my two cents.
No, the few are making enough noise to make it represent the many. If it's $399 that is a good price, great even.
Krappadizzle
Member
Both my PS4 and Xbone burned up in a warehouse fire when I moved. I bought a PS4Pro to replace the PS4 and will get a Scorpio to replace the Xbone. I'm excited to see what the final product is like.
damm that sucks. I'm sorry that happened to you
That is a key word.
Xbox is not competing with Playstation, they are figthing the battle (for years) to be relevant next to Windows, Office and Server business
I had a funny encounter with Tim Dog a while ago,
I made a outrageous joke post declaring doom and gloom upon Redmond, he took it a bit seriously and went in on the offensive.
Very confused as to why a lot of cyber-hate from stangers was shooting my way I reached out to the man, and a poster here you're very familiar with by the name of Chobel reached out to the man and reasoned with him without any instruction of mine, also a guy with the twitter handle TeamVernia
'That' side of the Xbox community was very apologetic and Tim Dog even sincerely offered me a copy of Inside as an olive branch, on top of that the fact that a Gaffer even bothered to calm the waters by their own initiative was all sort of insignificant but meant a lot to me
It was a nice symbol of the gaming community at its worst and best, which is why I'm asking, even though Tim Dog might stand for a bizaare degree of loyalty for a brand, were all human beings discussing a thing that makes us happy, try and maintain that mindset. If you were wearing a PlayStation hoody I doubt he would immediately be antagonistic towards you.
Were all good people, its alright to disagree and question an internet personality, but seriously keep things in perspective
I made a outrageous joke post declaring doom and gloom upon Redmond, he took it a bit seriously and went in on the offensive.
Very confused as to why a lot of cyber-hate from stangers was shooting my way I reached out to the man, and a poster here you're very familiar with by the name of Chobel reached out to the man and reasoned with him without any instruction of mine, also a guy with the twitter handle TeamVernia
'That' side of the Xbox community was very apologetic and Tim Dog even sincerely offered me a copy of Inside as an olive branch, on top of that the fact that a Gaffer even bothered to calm the waters by their own initiative was all sort of insignificant but meant a lot to me
It was a nice symbol of the gaming community at its worst and best, which is why I'm asking, even though Tim Dog might stand for a bizaare degree of loyalty for a brand, were all human beings discussing a thing that makes us happy, try and maintain that mindset. If you were wearing a PlayStation hoody I doubt he would immediately be antagonistic towards you.
Were all good people, its alright to disagree and question an internet personality, but seriously keep things in perspective
Art Vandilay
Member
I hope they reimbursed or you lawyered up.
Louis Cyphre
Banned
What is your investment in all of this by the way? It sure appears from my end you could care less what price it is because I have yet seen any interest from you. To reach your threshold on pricing of $399 would mean its not going to be that much of a jump over the PS4 Pro so why would anyone who is invested in the PS4 jump ship? If it's over $399 you are warning everyone it will just be a niche product and sell even worse than the XBox One is. Either way you've set this thing up to receive a lukewarm welcome.
MonkeyMan29
Member
And I can see where you're coming from, but really if Microsoft didn't think Xbox as a key business strategy would they continue to dump money into a division that is failing? Past ventures into hardware they aren't fisable and fail, they drop it like it's nothing. Microsoft Band, Zune, Kin, and others are fine examples.
I'd say MS is content with Xbox's position and revenues, otherwise Scorpio wouldn't be happening.
Jaguar Victory
Member
I'm squarely in the $500 launch with the best possible specs that you can cram in at that price camp.
I'll take option 2 ALL DAY. I would still buy option 1 because the GPU/bandwidth increases will be great, but I would prefer option 2. In my humble opinion if you want the cheap option, stick with the XBOX One S. Those of us who invested more than 1K in a 4K TV want this thing bumpin. Price will come down over time. Of course I'm not saying that I'm in the majority or anything. It's just what I would personally want. Save your tax return money folks
- Option 1: 6TF with Jaguar Cores @ $400
- Option 2: $500 with beefier custom excavator or Ryzen M CPU
I'll take option 2 ALL DAY. I would still buy option 1 because the GPU/bandwidth increases will be great, but I would prefer option 2. In my humble opinion if you want the cheap option, stick with the XBOX One S. Those of us who invested more than 1K in a 4K TV want this thing bumpin. Price will come down over time. Of course I'm not saying that I'm in the majority or anything. It's just what I would personally want. Save your tax return money folks
We must go deeper.
It certainly helps that developers have been thinking about more powerful consoles since the Pro was first discussed with third parties at GDC last year. They've had less than a year to alter plans for software under development so far, which has led to the predictable underutilization of new hardware to date. By the time Scorpio launches it will have been on their minds for longer and we may have seen a few first-party titles for the Pro that do a good job of showcasing the difference (I can only assume first-party developers have known about the hardware for somewhat longer.)
Scorpio should benefit at least somewhat from the first round of third-party holiday releases whose development have been influenced by the new hardware.
Hawk269
Member
Agree. They will need to be really careful on how they say and show things. Sony tried to push HDR in the PRO presentation way too much and majority of people watching could not tell because it is something you have to see in person. But if they show side by side games running on each console and they talk about the differences and that is backed up I think they should be able to send a clear message about Scorpio.
Locuza
Member
P10 uses 36 CUs and there are no sensible rumors around about how many CUs V11 might have.
In my eyes it's way more likely that V11 will fill the huge void between P10 with 36 CUs (232mm²) and V10 with 64 CUs (under 500mm²).
I really hate the marketing spin in this regard.
You could already give the cores in the PS4 Slim, Xbox One S and PS4 Pro new names basically because all of them are using the Jaguar architecture but with new FinFET transistors in accordance with an optimized physical design, Puma was nothing more but on a regular/planar transistor design.
Beerman462
Member
They would leave the market completely before that. They have used games in the past to promote the Windows platform as a place to game. I think dividing Xbox and Windows early on was a huge mistake. As long as they aren't selling the hardware at a loss it makes no sense to make games exclusive to hardware that is running Windows even if it's not a full OS.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
I'm squarely in the $500 launch with the best possible specs that you can cram in at that price camp.
- Option 1: 6TF with Jaguar Cores @ $400
- Option 2: $500 with beefier custom excavator or Ryzen M CPU
I'll take option 2 ALL DAY. I would still buy option 1 because the GPU/bandwidth increases will be great, but I would prefer option 2. In my humble opinion if you want the cheap option, stick with the XBOX One S. Those of us who invested more than 1K in a 4K TV want this thing bumpin. Price will come down over time. Of course I'm not saying that I'm in the majority or anything. It's just what I would personally want. Save your tax return money folks
It wouldn't shock me if it was $500 for option 1. With a Polaris GPU+bits of Vega tech plus 4k BD plus premium build/design.
Jaguar Victory
Member
I know. I fear that. I was trying not to say it out loud for fear of giving it life.
hanspampel
Banned
Yes puma over jaguar is basically zero architectural improvement.
Puma is jaguar.
A difference would be excavator (excavator cores are even a big difference from the original bulldozer cores) or zen
This is ryzen:
I said what I thought in my last post. They want to sell as much hardware as possible but never at a price so low that the software could never make up for it. That is obvious.
I am sure they do but like I said not at the cost of profit.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
I wouldn't worry about giving anything life. This hardware has been locked down for a while now (outside tweaks a la Xbox One) whatever the specs.
Actually has anyone thought about APU die size? How big is the PS4 Pro die and realistically what would be the upper limit for Scorpio? Surely this metric alone will point to likely specs?
Hawk269
Member
Come on man. No need for that.
Anyways, in response to the rest of your post, with Phil constantly talking about it being a premium console and all, there have been 2 school of thoughts. One that he is just saying that and then it launches at $399.99 and everyone is expecting it to be higher or the other and it is really expensive.
If it is really is expensive, then the specs need to match that. I don't think a $499.99 or more console that is 6tf, 12gb RAM and a Jaguar CPU would justify $499 or more. So if it is $499 or higher, it has to contain something a bit more. I just don't think 4 more GB or RAM and 1.8tf over the PRO would be $100+ more than the PRO.
You're "afraid"? So long as the retail price minus the underlying costs/distritbution is more than the average market investment gain (which is no grand figure), then they're golden by investment standards. With the volume of capital Microsoft has ready for investment, a figure that exceeds the rate of inflation for its home country would put that decision in an acceptable place.
That framework is no a guarantee that it will be a success, but downplaying performance for "merely" being ahead of half the market (and just as likely more than half the market) is being overly critical. Any investor worth their pennies would see that.
vpance
Member
Why not? Bigger, hotter APU = more cooling, stronger PSU and most likely a bigger box than the Pro. Plus, with the addition of a UHD drive I can easily see there being a $100 cost difference at the very least.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
It won't be a Polaris GPU, it will be Vega with some Navi features.
Locuza
Member
Or zero Navi features.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Sure it could be Vega 11 or cut down Vega 10 but then if it does turn out to be using Jaguar cores then it will be even more unbalanced than the current base consoles. The ideal would be to have both Vega and new CPU but that seems the most unrealistic outcome.
Dee Dah Dave
Member
Whatever it is I doubt Microsoft are going to fire one up on launch day only to watch it's 'monster' GPU grind to a halt because of the CPU not pulling it's weight. I'm sure it will all work just as planned, Jaguar or no Jaguar.
With most console games running at 30fps anyway, I don't know why everyone is making such a big deal over the CPU. It will do the job.
With most console games running at 30fps anyway, I don't know why everyone is making such a big deal over the CPU. It will do the job.
Tallshortman
Member
Yep sorry meant 36. There's currently nothing slotted below vega 11 that we know of that is coming so it's entirely feasible that, like in years past, a slightly disabled vega 10 will serve in that gap.
TLZ
Banned
I don't know who's obsessed and can't even imagine the thought of it (ugh), but his tweet was brought up as "proof" of a certain rumor being fake, and that was funny. Then his defense force jumped out of nowhere.
My personal issue with him is this: I once read a tweet of his around E3 I think. He had Phil Spencer's @ in his tweet. So I replied to his tweet asking something genuine about what he tweeted. I don't troll. I didn't even know who Tim dog was back then. The mongrel straight up responded with something like "why are you tagging Phil" or "why are you dragging him into this? Blocked". Like what the actual fuck kind of childish manner is that coming from someone who's supposedly mature? All I did was read his tweet, click on reply, typed a question and sent. Phil was auto tagged in because he had him in. But that doesn't justify me being blocked? I'm pretty sure my question was genuine enough I could've asked Phil the same question if he himself have tweeted the same thing and I wouldn't imagine in a million years being blocked. Long story short, he gave me the impression he's a man child because of what he did. And reading his other tweets cemented that. So calling him a nice person is a bit rich. If he practices such behavior and is still being called a nice person, then what have people left for actual legit nice people?
So if after what I've personally experienced and read I see some people quickly jumping in his defense, I know what I'm in for. I know you're defending that behavior of his that I'm incompatible with. If he wants to be seen in a different light then he should present himself with better attitude. You love him all you want. I won't. And I'm not getting into arguments about this. Thank you. And I'm done here.
Edit: Slight correction. I started tagging Phil, and it was to show Tim where he's at; knowing top people like Phil and so concentrate your efforts there, not concern yourself with forum gossip. And I was trying to give him some advice. Here's exactly what happened:
Tim
(uugghhh...)
Me
(I'm limited to 140, and I'm trying to tell him to focus his energy where it matters, I mean you're in contact with Phil fgs. Focus your energy there instead of wasting it on forum gossip)
Tim
(sigh... If this isn't childish I don't know what is, but anyway I still try being sensible)
Me
(trying to be sensible again, just giving advice to drop it)
Tim
(aaaand there you have it. I was muted for trying to give advice :/ funny thing is he was tagging phil with his stupidly childish responses. He could've easily removed him from it, but I guess he felt embarrassed?)
And some tell me this person is nice.... Sigh...
You just basically said the same thing as me that it's catering to a niche market.
Hawk269
Member
I think the reason people are making a big deal about it is that the PRO is using Jaguar and some PRO games are being handicapped by the Jaguar CPU. I think that is reason enough. If Scorpio also has a Jaguar, I would expect them to have some bottle necks with it as well. I think that is why so many are hoping it has something better. If MS intended to use Jaguar, I wonder why they just did not say that in that promo video shown at E3? All they say is 8 Core CPU, if the plan was to use Jaguar, they would of just left it out of the presentation or just said a high clocked Jaguar.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
I fully expect that if PS4 Pro managed some Vega features on a Polaris GPU, that Scorpio, launching a year later, will manage some Navi features on a Vega GPU. It is a totally realistic expectation based on current information. Microsoft didn't just wait till 2017 for a 6TF GPU; there are other considerations that went into their decision, of which a more advanced architecture with some new features would have certainly played an important role.
They should go for profit and marketshare so they need to make sure they can get a good price that brings on money, if they lose money on this console and it still doesn´t sell well enough i dont know man they are losing marketshare in all fronts these days, they can´t afford to lose anymore on the Console space, specially since the efforts they made with 360.
Scorpio needs to take Xbox brand back to 360 days, they will never win against Sony but at least they can be much more competitive and win USA and UK again maybe.
Locuza
Member
The gap is too large, even a disabled V10 chip couldn't fill it.
For example V11 could have 48 CUs and a die size around 350mm².
Dee Dah Dave
Member
But you don't know if the Pro is CPU limited in those instances, or are they trying to stretch the GPU too far with resolution and graphics? Are they bandwidth limited in those instances?
Poor optimisation is the reason for shoddy performance not the hardware. All these consoles are capable of running at a solid, stable framerate. The hardware may not be perfectly balanced but it's up to the devs to get the best out of it.
Of course the Jaguar is far from good and a new CPU would be very welcome, but it isn't going to change things a great deal either. The GPU, it's greater bandwidth and the extra RAM will be doing the heavy lifting.
But who knows, maybe they will launch a nuke or two come June. I doubt it though, the timing doesn't add up.
People seem to be expecting an entirely different machine just with a CPU change. Which BTW if they do use Zen, it will only be a low powered one.
Locuza
Member
The PS4 Pro managed just to have two features beyond Polaris tech, packed math and an advanced work distributor.
It's very important to know when the developmant cycle started and which IP blocks could be updated, there is no general rule to expect.
I wouldn't hold my breath for Navi features let alone already claim that it will have some, where even if it has, it could be anything from small and neglectable to fairly considerable.
hanspampel
Banned
FacelessSamurai
..but cry so much I wish I had some
I personally feel like this will come put at 400$ with Zen and Vega. When listening to Phil in interview about how they cpuld have released something in 2016 similar to PS4 Pro but decided to wait until 2017 for something more worthwhile, you can tell they were waiting for something big, and my guess is that they were waiting for something more than just a GPU upgrade.
Only time will tell, but I feel like a lot of people will be surprised when specs are anounced. I wasn't disappointed by Xbox One, but Microsoft knows a lot of people were and they are looking to fix those mistakes.
Only time will tell, but I feel like a lot of people will be surprised when specs are anounced. I wasn't disappointed by Xbox One, but Microsoft knows a lot of people were and they are looking to fix those mistakes.
Chobel
Member
Well yeah, they're not gonna sell $500 worth console at $400. They gonna sell $400 worth console at $400.
However you said Scoprio at $500 or $400 doesn't matter, while it matters a lot. They're not gonna sell a $500 console when they can sell a shit ton more $400 consoles.
Locuza
Member
From AMDs side the only official information was the roadmap:
- Scalability
- Next Gen Memory
- Better Perf/Watt
nothing more.
VideocardZ leaked (if they are not faked) some roadmap slides in regards to professional products where Navi will launch in 2019.
https://videocardz.com/65521/amd-vega-10-and-vega-20-slides-revealed
Thebeardofknowledge
Banned
I can't even
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
hanspampel
Banned
From AMDs side the only official information was the roadmap:
- Scalability
- Next Gen Memory
- Better Perf/Watt
nothing more.
VideocardZ leaked (if they are not faked) some roadmap slides in regards to professional products where Navi will launch in 2019.
https://videocardz.com/65521/amd-vega-10-and-vega-20-slides-revealed
yeah and that are no compute features or anything
scorpio won't have HBM or the successor
improved perf/watt is always the goal for each new gpu
and scalability is just a very general trivial term
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