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Digital Foundry: the complete Xbox One architects interview

Hmm what about the ps4 custom vertex shadowing ? :)

"With graphics, the first bottleneck you’re likely to run into is memory bandwidth. Given that 10 or more textures per object will be standard in this generation, it’s very easy to run into that bottleneck," he said. "Quite a few phases of rendering become memory bound, and beyond shifting to lower bit-per-texel textures, there’s not a whole lot you can do. Our strategy has been simply to make sure that we were using GDDR5 for the system memory and therefore have a lot of bandwidth."

That's one down. "If you're not bottlenecked by memory, it's very possible -- if you have dense meshes in your objects -- to be bottlenecked on vertices. And you can try to ask your artists to use larger triangles, but as a practical matter, it's difficult to achieve that. It's quite common to be displaying graphics where much of what you see on the screen is triangles that are just a single pixel in size. In which case, yes, vertex bottlenecks can be large."

"There are a broad variety of techniques we've come up with to reduce the vertex bottlenecks, in some cases they are enhancements to the hardware," said Cerny. "The most interesting of those is that you can use compute as a frontend for your graphics."

This technique, he said, is "a mix of hardware, firmware inside of the GPU, and compiler technology. What happens is you take your vertex shader, and you compile it twice, once as a compute shader, once as a vertex shader. The compute shader does a triangle sieve -- it just does the position computations from the original vertex shader and sees if the triangle is backfaced, or the like. And it's generating, on the fly, a reduced set of triangles for the vertex shader to use. This compute shader and the vertex shader are very, very tightly linked inside of the hardware."

It's also not a hard solution to implement, Cerny suggested. "From a graphics programmer perspective, using this technique means setting some compiler flags and using a different mode of the graphics API. So this is the kind of thing where you can try it in an afternoon and see if it happens to bump up your performance."

These processes are "so tightly linked," said Cerny, that all that's required is "just a ring buffer for indices... it's the Goldilocks size. It's small enough to fit the cache, it's large enough that it won't stall out based on discrepancies between the speed of processing of the compute shaders and the vertex shaders."
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/191007/inside_the_playstation_4_with_mark_.php?print=1
 
I'm just going to add, I actually wanted the next gen of GPU architecture in the PS4/XO, but was willing to somewhat let it go because it only costs $399. Fact that Microsofts come with a console with the even weaker comparative GPU spec/architecture, and has the audacity to sell it for £430, is what's mind boggling. And it's supposed to last 10 years? Lol. I believe Yusuf said they're selling the console at a profit whilst Sony is selling at roughly a $60 loss, well Microsoft, gamers care about value proposition, especially when it comes with better hardware performance to boot. My advice is to start selling the console at a loss, because right now, hardware performance wise, the value proposition is pretty awful, especially for a new console.
 
I remember that thread. An unsubstantiated hearsay claim on twitter that a fanboy misguidedly turned into a thread that was locked by a mod.

Have you got any verified quotes from any devs that have stated that the Xbox One is handicapped?

How is the xbone not handicapped?
 
According to the leaked diagram, there are 3 buses/lanes for the CPU: one that is 20 GB/s read/write between CPU and memory only, one that is 10 GB/s read and 10 GB/s write that snoops the CPU's L1/L2 caches on its way to the GPU (i.e., Onion), and one that is 10 GB/s read and 10 GB/s write that bypasses the GPU's caches (i.e., Onion+--shares bandwidth with Onion). So, 20 + 10 + 10 = 40 GB/s total.

Thanks!

Wow, PS4 really is better in every way bar CPU clock speeds..

This should be put in one of those tech comparison posts for more details regarding their differences.

Xbox One :

Coherent Bandwidth 30GB/s

PS4's :

Coherent Bandwidth 40GB/s +34%
 
I remember that thread. An unsubstantiated hearsay claim on twitter that a fanboy misguidedly turned into a thread that was locked by a mod.

Have you got any verified quotes from any devs that have stated that the Xbox One is handicapped?
Why would any dev go out on record and claim the Xbox One is an inferior console?

However, there does seem to be a sentiment that the PS4 is significantly more powerful than the Xbox One. e.g. People Can Fly ex-Creative Director of Gears of War Judgement.
 
So it looks like we'll have to rely on first party titles to target the higher end specs of the PS4. It's ashame that 3rd party titles are going to have to scale things back to take Microsoft's cable box into account.
That's disrespectful to the hard-working engineers that created Direct X. The Xbone is "handi-capable".
Did you rip these comments off of some YouTube video? Oozing quality.
 
The only place the Xbox One is handicapped by lack of power is in the minds of Sony fanboys. The devs themselves think it's a powerful system.

Well, there also was the silicon lead from Microsoft directly saying to a reporter, "we purposefully did not target the highest end graphics". So there's that. It's "powerful", well, sure, compared to 360.
 
Of course I buy them based on specs, they are both the same family and that one has x number of cores more, more rops, more tmus, etc.. etc.. why would I buy the slower one?
Now hold on a minute. You aren't thinking about the big picture. What if the weaker one is more expensive? You still sure its so simple? Huh?
 
Why would any dev go out on record and claim the Xbox One is an inferior console?

However, there does seem to be a sentiment that the PS4 is significantly more powerful than the Xbox One. e.g. People Can Fly ex-Creative Director of Gears of War Judgement.


Because it is so obvious it makes you look like a paid off fool for saying otherwise. To put it simply.
 
I've been saying A for forever now. I'm going to hunt through the hundreds, potentially thousands of my posts for it, but it's there.

People were saying the CPU had access to the eSRAM and I'd show them using the diagram that, even though it does, it's in fact very slow because it not only has to go through the memory interface, but the gpu interface, then into the memory itself.

EDIT: Google saved the day.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=77514837&postcount=350

Here it is. As I said, the CPU can't DIRECTLY access the eSRAM. That's why it's so slow.

I read that back then too.

What I think is new information is that while it is connected,its data flow is very slow. So much that it is negligible. Essentially the same as what you said but different at the same time.
 
Oh Xbox threads.

cm-39268-050cb463153f8a.jpeg
 
I'm just going to add, I actually wanted the next gen of GPU architecture in the PS4/XO, but was willing to somewhat let it go because it only costs $399. Fact that Microsofts come with a console with the even weaker comparative GPU spec/architecture, and has the audacity to sell it for £430, is what's mind boggling. And it's supposed to last 10 years? Lol. I believe Yusuf said they're selling the console at a profit whilst Sony is selling at roughly a $60 loss, well Microsoft, gamers care about value proposition, especially when it comes with better hardware performance to boot. My advice is to start selling the console at a loss, because right now, hardware performance wise, the value proposition is pretty awful, especially for a new console.
Did Yusuf say that, thought he said they were breaking even at best or something along those lines.
 
Oh Xbox threads.

Very constructive.

Your not going to get a developer to come out and openly say the xbox one is sub par, because they'd likely lose their jobs, speaking anonymously, then yea, that's the general theme that anonymous sources are giving out.
 
Very constructive.

Your not going to get a developer to come out and openly say the xbox one is sub par, because they'd likely lose their jobs, speaking anonymously, then yea, that's the general theme that anonymous sources are giving out.

Sorry.. I just woke up and forgot to put my picture up in that post.

Cool. The X1 is less powerful than the PS4. I've known this for a long time since early 2013. It's still going to trounce the 360 and do everything way better than the 360.

They're both going to have great games. So I'm ready for the new gen just like this gen.
 
Outside of The Division, are there any PS4/XBO games that aren't on PS360? XBO is the least of a developer's worries with the PS3 still in play.
There's The Crew as well from Ubisoft. EA has UFC and NBA Live as next-gen only in the near future, and more long term things like Mirror's Edge 2 and Battlefront. And Elder Scrolls Online from Bethesda.

I think that's it for now. Although I'm sure there are things unannounced.
 
Is that true though? Having a big GPU advantage, without a big CPU advantage would imply they're basically equal in terms of the type of simulations they can run, the PS4 can just draw the prettier frame, but that shouldn't be a LCD factor, right? You can always just throw the additional GPU performance at framerate/IQ, etc.

you totally forgot about the PS4 GPGPU abilities.
 
Anybody with a sane mind knows that the PS4 is superior – those who say otherwise are delusional and need to seek treatment.

The problem however is whenever an article like this comes up, the first thing people think or assume is that it says the X1 is somehow magically better then the PS4. That is the baseline people think in. Yet articles really didn’t reflect that, but still people jumped through hoops to find some kind of insult or put too much effort to disprove something that really didn’t need disproving. Yes, I understand that people like discussing specs and dissecting it. The problem is not with those people, it’s the drive-by and the ‘it needs to be defended, because..’ mentality it created. So much is that it has devolved into useless memes and type-before-you-think replies.

Shills are terrible and illogical arguments need to be called out, but some of these other folks act as bad as those people.
 
Sorry.. I just woke up and forgot to put my picture up in that post.

Cool. The X1 is less powerful than the PS4. I've known this for a long time since early 2013. It's still going to trounce the 360 and do everything way better than the 360.

They're both going to have great games. So I'm ready for the new gen just like this gen.

What are you doing in this thread then? Maybe instead of whining, you should leave it to the mods to decide whether these threads should exist.

There's The Crew as well from Ubisoft. EA has UFC and NBA Live as next-gen only in the near future, and more long term things like Mirror's Edge 2 and Battlefront. And Elder Scrolls Online from Bethesda.

I think that's it for now. Although I'm sure there are things unannounced.

FFXV, KH3 and Witcher 3 as well.

Isn't FIFA 14 pretty different from the current gen versions as well? New engine I think?
 
PR monkeys are going to monkey. What were you expecting?

PR is generally influencing the facts and presenting them in a way that favors the point your trying to make, The comment I posted was pure dishonesty rather than Presenting something with flowers on it.

More or less constructive than these on this page?

2 of those comments weren't much more constructive, However they used the whole xbone is disrespectful and actually made a joke about what somebody else had said regarding the xbox one not being handicapped.

The third comment was actually on topic of the discussion that had been brought forward regarding what developers had been saying about the machines.

Besides, even if all 3 of the comments we're rubbish, it doesn't mean a 4th rubbish comment is ok, especially if it comes across as thread whining which is against ToS.

I see a ton of flapping jaws from Sony and MS but neither has show anything that was overly impressive.

I thought the Dark Sorcerer was pretty impressive. and if we're just looking at launch games, I'd say KZ:SF and Ryse both look impressive compared to the first games of last gen and how the games evolved during the generation.
 
the fact that we will see little to no GPGPU on multiplatforms games because of the XO limitation makes the XO a handicapp.

This right here is what really upsets me...Then I remember SSM, Naughty Dog, Media Molecule, Sony Bend, SCE Japan, and Sucker Punch. And Im happy again.
 
Damn, there's some cool bits of information in this article.

We can do things like update the operating system on the system side of things while retaining very good compatibility with the portion running on the titles, so we're not breaking back-compat with titles because titles have their own entire operating system that ships with the game. Conversely it also allows us to innovate to a great extent on the title side as well. With the architecture, from SDK to SDK release as an example we can completely rewrite our operating system memory manager for both the CPU and the GPU, which is not something you can do without virtualisation. It drove a number of key areas... Nick talked about the page tables.

This part here, and a number of other parts. I'm guessing this was somewhat of a challenge before when the OS and game side were treated as more identical without virtualization.
 
FFXV, KH3 and Witcher 3 as well.

Isn't FIFA 14 pretty different from the current gen versions as well? New engine I think?
Forgot about those. I wouldn't be surprised if the next Tomb Raider and Deus Ex are also next gen/PC only. Rocksteady is working on a mystery project too iirc.

Publishers are actually moving faster than I expected in terms of next-gen only development.

EA Sports are supposed to be using their new Ignite engine - although it hasn't particularly impressed thus far, as far as I'm aware.
 
This is from the last big thread.

X1 GPU:
1.18 TF GPU (12 CUs) for games
768 Shaders
48 Texture units
16 ROPS
2 ACE/ 16 queues

PS4 GPU:
1.84TF GPU ( 18 CUs) for games + 56%
1152 Shaders +50%
72 Texture units +50%
32 ROPS + 100%
8 ACE/64 queues +400%

PS4 looks unbalanced to me. +400%? +50% +100%? man it's like ALL OVER THE PLACE!!! It should have been consistently lower like the Xbone. Oh beautiful balance.
 
Have they addressed how no one wants Kinect. How all their top AAA games are not using it aside from the odd voice command that could easily be done with a microphone?

Have they addressed the whole reason Sony has crushed them this far is because of Kinect and resulting price, power etc

Have they addressed that by heavily targeting Kinect which was all but ignored by their core user base, they are in fact alienating their core user base?

To be honest Microsoft would be in a much better shape with a console the same power but $100 cheaper than the PS4. Or a console just as powerful for the same price. Or a console more powerful but more expensive. But heavily reliant on Kinect ... less power ... and higher price? It's like all the wrong combinations.

How is any of what you said related to this article,
 
Well, without going into any theoretical biases, it's easy to see why people would think so. If you copypaste the titles of Next Gen articles from Digital Foundry since August, you'll see this.

Xbox One:

Digital Foundry: the complete Xbox One architects interview - The whole story.
Microsoft to unlock more GPU power for Xbox One developers - Kinect and app reservations will be accessible to game-makers.
Digital Foundry vs. the Xbox One architects - "There's a lot of misinformation out there and a lot of people who don't get it. We're actually extremely proud of our design."
Xbox One exclusive Ryse runs at 900p - Full HD off the table for Crytek's showcase. Digital Foundry assesses the news
Xbox One CPU speed increased by 9.375 per cent - 1.6GHz processor bumped up to 1.75GHz in production hardware.
Beyond live TV - what the Xbox One user interface means for gamers - Digital Foundry on the next-gen dash, voice control... and Kinect.
Digital Foundry vs. Respawn: the Titanfall interview - Xbox One, the cloud, the Source Engine - and the 1080p60 question
Xbox One graphics speed increased by 6.62 per cent - GPU receives post-E3 53MHz speed boost.

PS4:

Digital Foundry vs. Resogun - Head-to-head with Housemarque, plus exclusive PlayStation 4 60fps gameplay video.
Mark Cerny: lead architect of... PlayStation Vita? - PS4 design chief also responsible for Sony's handheld.



It's probably safe to say DF is more interested in Xbox One, or Microsoft really wants to talk to them all the time. Or Sony PR could just be slacking off since they're in the publicity lead.

DAT balance.

In all honesty, Xbox one is just more news worthy
 
What are you doing in this thread then? Maybe instead of whining, you should leave it to the mods to decide whether these threads should exist.

Uhhh.. what are you talking about whining. I haven't complained one time in this thread.

This is the third time I've post in this thread.

Why so serious? I came in this thread to read the newest info. There's some interesting reads. Ha ha.... Wow you so angry. I agree with The OddOne. I'm coming into this reading the new info. I already know the PS4 is more powerful than the X1. I'm not sure where the whining from me is you're ranting about.
 
It does make me wonder how they will deal with probable better ports of games on PS4 when they do head to head.

XB1 will win because the games will have better sound.

Of course, he will then be pulled up for mentioning a PS3 sound advantage once in a face off (Dead Space 2, I think) and deciding it was not a significant factor - XBox wins!
 
CONCLUSION
When you break down the numbers, PS4 has provably more performance than Xbox One. Keep in mind that Microsoft has a track record of over promising and under delivering on technical performance. The truth is that both systems pack a lot of power for high definition games and entertainment.[/URL]

Probably my favourite part of MS's fall from grace is the revisionist history that MS has a history of underpromising and overdelivering, and completely ignoring the absurd claims of supercomputer-like performance for their consoles that Sony has peddled since PS2. Anyone remember PS3, the 2TFLOP beast?

Anyway, the central point that I wanted to address is that it's beyond the point where people have to say 'they both powerful consoles that will put out amazing graphics blah blah blah'. It's like how people keep pointing out the issues with the Democrats to make themselves seem unbiased when they're talking about how ridiculous the Republicans have become. Neither company, realistically, could have put bleeding-edge PC parts in their new consoles, for reasons of cost and power usage. But Sony at least put arguably the best possible hardware in their box for the money and power usage. MS designed a Frankenconsole that is outclassed by it on every front. That's the difference here.
 
Well, without going into any theoretical biases, it's easy to see why people would think so. If you copypaste the titles of Next Gen articles from Digital Foundry since August, you'll see this.

Xbox One:

Digital Foundry: the complete Xbox One architects interview - The whole story.
Microsoft to unlock more GPU power for Xbox One developers - Kinect and app reservations will be accessible to game-makers.
Digital Foundry vs. the Xbox One architects - "There's a lot of misinformation out there and a lot of people who don't get it. We're actually extremely proud of our design."
Xbox One exclusive Ryse runs at 900p - Full HD off the table for Crytek's showcase. Digital Foundry assesses the news
Xbox One CPU speed increased by 9.375 per cent - 1.6GHz processor bumped up to 1.75GHz in production hardware.
Beyond live TV - what the Xbox One user interface means for gamers - Digital Foundry on the next-gen dash, voice control... and Kinect.
Digital Foundry vs. Respawn: the Titanfall interview - Xbox One, the cloud, the Source Engine - and the 1080p60 question
Xbox One graphics speed increased by 6.62 per cent - GPU receives post-E3 53MHz speed boost.

PS4:

Digital Foundry vs. Resogun - Head-to-head with Housemarque, plus exclusive PlayStation 4 60fps gameplay video.
Mark Cerny: lead architect of... PlayStation Vita? - PS4 design chief also responsible for Sony's handheld.



It's probably safe to say DF is more interested in Xbox One, or Microsoft really wants to talk to them all the time. Or Sony PR could just be slacking off since they're in the publicity lead.

Holy shit
 
And in a practical sense, what do you think the PS4 is capable of which it won't be doing because of the XBO, real world examples I mean?

Fluid dynamics. (Water/Fire/Smoke?)-Maybe fluid dynamics isn't the correct word?

Specific example would be the forming of the Water monster in Deep Down TGS clip.

EDIT: used in Deep Down as it's an exclusive, but it may not be worthwhile to implement this on multi platform releases.
 
I wonder how Senjitsusage or whatever is name is feels about the latency response they gave after he has spent the last six months and countless paragraphs hyping up the esram latency advantage that would make xone match the ps4.

He'll just ignore it and carry on waffling about fifteen (count em!) co-processors Move Engines, SHAPE, display panes and glorious balancing bandwidths.

We don't know that. It's pure speculation on your part.

If he speculated 'XBone wins' you'd love it.

Thanks!

Wow, PS4 really is better in every way bar CPU clock speeds..

That's the twist, we don't know what the PS4 CPU clock speed is, yet.
 
So does the Xbox1 have an ARM chip/SoC like the PS4 does? I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere.

They would have mentioned it by now if it had.

ohhh.png
Hmmmmm.....It's interesting that in all these PS4/Xbox1 hardware comparison threads on NeoGAF, the Xbox1's chips are always mentioned (especially SHAPE), but we never talk about the ARM chip/SoC that seems to be exclusive to the PS4.
 
And in a practical sense, what do you think the PS4 is capable of which it won't be doing because of the XBO, real world examples I mean?

Cerny talked about it in detail, you basically can do fluid simulation, complex physics calculations, collision dedication, raycasting for audio...etc to give you an example all the amazing physics and particles effects in resogun are done on the GPU. it's really a game changer if it's used by developers but thanks to the XO you will not see on multiplatform games,it will only be limited to first party games.
 
Fluid dynamics. (Water/Fire/Smoke?)-Maybe fluid dynamics isn't the correct word?

Specific example would be the forming of the Water monster in Deep Down TGS clip.

EDIT: used in Deep Down as it's an exclusive, but it may not be worthwhile to implement this on multi platform releases.
But why do you think those things won't be on PS4 versions? Is that not the kind of thing included in high end DX11 settings?
 
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