Md Ray
Member
Spiderman MM reflections are complete garbage compared to WD:L reflections.
Spiderman MM reflections are complete garbage compared to WD:L reflections.
IIRC Orange Box was worse on consoles compared to some pre-unified shader pipeline cards from Nvidia and ATi at the time.Huh... I don't remember the last time a game was performing worse on consoles vs a less powerful PC.
(...)many thought 2 years ago we wouldn’t and that it wasn’t even needed on consoles (...)
How when it looks better and factually does everything closer to CG like reflections are supposed to. It runs the original shaders when it reflects, it reflects other reflections from water puddles, it reflects smoke, leaves, etc.. It's clearly a better quality implementation than MM. Not sure how some of you can't see that. MM is taking out so much from the reflections it's not even funny.
No PC game will ever trump the popularity game of you PS warriors. There is nothing magically stunning about any of the exclusives but subjectivity and popularity. If we were to examine at the actual pixel level of these games and their many shortcuts, you'll find that many many games with PC @ Ultra settings have way better rendering quality than the consoles..as it should... it has the GPU power to add in higher fidelity rendering.
Mhm this may be true for old generations. But since they moved to an easy to program architecture last gen, the gains aren't that huge. Infamous Second Son is still one of the better looking PS4 games if you ask me.
If anything, this is very good news because it means developers are forced to do more trickery to get Raytracing more performant. On PC this means a wider range of hardware can use RT by using console optimizations increasing adaption and at the same time it means it can be cranked up much further and use PCs to full potential.I just hope this low-end ray tracing doesn't hold PC gaming back over the next few years, because the tech is going to grow by leaps and bounds and the GPUs are going to get much more capable.
Its Ubisoft. Don't expect quality optimization.watchdog seems like it's just a bit shit.
And yet watchdogs looks worse as it reverts to cubemaps way too close from the player, I can see the shortcomings in regular gameplay all the time.
MM have a better implementation IMO. or to rephrase, they have done a better job artistically with the RT abilities the host machine has.
Its Ubisoft. Don't expect quality optimization ever.
Saw this in the Watch Dogs video by Alex. He found xbox series x settings in the PC version of Watch Dogs. PS5 settings are there too (Prospero) and they are near identical to the xsx settings. So this should mean both Xbox and PS5 are equivalent to a 2060 Super when it comes to ray tracing.
2060 Super ray tracing doesnt have checkerboarding and does several things better (texture clarity, AF etc) while maintaining the same framerate in like to like sections. Outdoors, the xsx version basically runs at 1440p while the 2060 super seems to offer 24 fps at native 4k which should become 48 fps when going down to 1440p.
Timestamped:
He didnt have the PS5 version but since the settings are identical (reflections checkerboard at 1080p), it seems the PS5 ray tracing performance should be identical.
Not a good first effort by AMD in my opinion, if their 12 tflops gpu is offering worse performance in ray traced games than a 7 tflops nvidia gpu then we are going to have a pretty lame gen. Hopefully most devs just skip ray tracing altogether and go the Demon Souls route.
P.S The XSX is supposedly as strong as a 2080 according to Microsoft in Gears. so standard rasterization performance is pretty good for RDNA 2.0 GPUs.
The game is 30 fps. Automatically disqualifies it in my book. And then it's ubisoft, which, firstly, means it's optimization is shit. Secondly, they likely rushed it as many are saying they rushed AC Valhalla. Ubisoft constantly goes with the mantra, "release it broken, fix it if we care". I'll wait to see Raytracing in a game that matters, namely Cyberpunk.
Its what happen when you make a state of art engine. What you call optimizations are mere cuts in fidelity maded in such a way that most casual gamers won't notice. Ubisoft is one of the companies that really push technology in their games, you can say that they have trouble downgrading properly to consoles. I'm tired of people that thinks that a optimized engine is the one the runs great in mid-tier hardware. There is nothing wrong in take full advance of the power available on high end PC.The game is 30 fps. Automatically disqualifies it in my book. And then it's ubisoft, which, firstly, means it's optimization is shit. Secondly, they likely rushed it as many are saying they rushed AC Valhalla. Ubisoft constantly goes with the mantra, "release it broken, fix it if we care". I'll wait to see Raytracing in a game that matters, namely Cyberpunk.
Most games they put out have terrible optimization. It's not "FUD". Their games are riddled with this stuff to the point most people just roll their eyes at it now.This is a silly and judgemental statement that has 0 fact in basis. No one on these boards who isn't in a position of authority should be making such a stupid and uninformed statement.
It's equivalent to people claiming 9T for the PS5. These kinds of comments should be bannable as it's spreads FUD like no other
If the question is which set of tradeoffs delivers the best visual return, then you have to compare at the same performance levels. So for consoles, you should compare the PS5 version of Watchdogs Legion to MM.There implementation isn't of an opinion variety. That's what you guys don't understand. It's simply NOT better.
I also wish you would stop comparing the PC's lower end hardware to the consoles. The PC comparision should be made with a top end GPU that utilizes the entire 3d feature set for the game. Ultra settings will blow away any of the Spiderman MM looks.
There implementation isn't of an opinion variety. That's what you guys don't understand. It's simply NOT better.
I also wish you would stop comparing the PC's lower end hardware to the consoles. The PC comparision should be made with a top end GPU that utilizes the entire 3d feature set for the game. Ultra settings will blow away any of the Spiderman MM looks.
If the question is which set of tradeoffs delivers the best visual return, then you have to compare at the same performance levels. So for consoles, you should compare the PS5 version of Watchdogs Legion to MM.
(And yes, even on PC not everyone can afford to buy a 3090, so optimisations matter)
You might want to sit down for this, as it may shock you. But how good a game looks, isn't just based on how technically advanced it's rendering techniques are.
I've played both games, Spiderman's reflections are more impressive. the reflections don't transition into cube maps 5m from the player and the skyscrapers present an almost ideal scenario for RT. The distortion they added to the large surfaces as you climb up them is also a nice touch that is very noticeable in gameplay.
You get very defensive because in your view it's not as technically competent, but that's not my argument.
Spiderman MM reflections are complete garbage compared to WD:L reflections.
I play on both console and pc.And you're a console gamer?
The person you were replying to specifically said that MM does "a better job artistically with the RT abilities the host machine has".I understand this. But that's not how the PS warriors argue.
not when you compare it to The Last of us 2
An "industry professional" calls other industry professionals hard work "COMPLETE GARBAGE" when it's actually not. In fact, both WD:L and SM's RT implementations look fantastic and extremely impressive.Can you show me what reflection looks better in MM than PC with Ultra settings at 4k in WD:L? Can we actually examine just the reflection itself and what it represents? Since we are looking at arbitrary scene data, subjective opinion is useless since are only seeing props, NPCs, etc..
Don't just say "it looks better to me and that's that." You guys do realize you troll people who say a different game is better looking than YOUR game right?
MY FACT!
GAVE THIS TROLL MEME
The comparison should be made with PCs of the same price bracket. At the end of the day, a person wanting to buy a console for $500, who's also curiously interested in building a PC, would want to know what the same amount would get him. We can't go comparing $500 consoles with $1500-$2000 graphics cards. Don't you guys always say that?There implementation isn't of an opinion variety. That's what you guys don't understand. It's simply NOT better.
I also wish you would stop comparing the PC's lower end hardware to the consoles. The PC comparision should be made with a top end GPU that utilizes the entire 3d feature set for the game. Ultra settings will blow away any of the Spiderman MM looks.
An "industry professional" calls other industry professionals hard work "COMPLETE GARBAGE" when it's actually not. In fact, both WD:L and SM's RT implementations look fantastic and extremely impressive.
Comments like that from you only make you appear bitter and spiteful. Since you claim to be an "industry professional" then maybe try to be respectful to the work of other professionals, even if they're developing for the camp you really hate so much. Thanks.
Yer that 2060 does look a hell of a lot better than the xbox version.
Then again spiderman looks incredible so surely the xbox can improve it.
another reason is maybe Insomic games are just a tier above Ubisoft in that department.
Not wanting to through shade on Ubisoft but i don't rate them anywhere near the naughty dogs or sucker punches of this world, this is probably just that. A good studio, not a masterful one, or maybe i am being to harsh,
An unoptimized ubisoft game continues to be unoptimized.
shocker.
spiderman:Re and Miles Morales gives me no doubt that ray tracing looks just fine on consoles
I don't think anyone should be making any judgments about the capability of the hardware based on launch titles, especially ubisoft ones."
The comparison should be made with PCs of the same price bracket. At the end of the day, a person wanting to buy a console for $500, who's also curiously interested in building a PC, would want to know what the same amount would get him. We can't go comparing $500 consoles with $1500-$2000 graphics cards. Don't you guys always say that?
And yet watchdogs looks worse as it reverts to cubemaps way too close from the player, I can see the shortcomings in regular gameplay all the time.
Show me a PC Game on a 1.8tf GPU that looks as good as TLOU2...
underperformance from Ubi on Xbox
underperformance from Ubi, Capcom, Activition on xbox
For that game
Looks worse on a PC@ Ultra settings? I'd love to see some screen comparisions. DF did an entire video reviewing WD:L and the reflections look way better.
1) Having reflections in reflections is superior. Period. There is no opinion in this. That's how the real world works
2) Evaluating transparencies and smoke, tree leaves being seen in the reflection is superior. Period. The more you cut out of the reflection the less convincing it is. MM cuts out too many details.
3) Evaluating specular highlights in the shaders in the reflection is superior. Period. Having a flat representation of the shader you are reflecting is very unconvincing as that's not how the shader looks when not seen in the reflection.
4) Much high resolution RT scene for reflections. More resolution = better visuals. Period.
5) Higher proxy geometry in reflections look more representative of what it's actually reflecting in the realworld. Crude low end polys to reflect because the console doesn't have the power to reflect at a finer detail level is a disadvantage. Period.
SO, where is the superior reflections in MM when it has all of these shortcuts?
Exactly... Sometimes people forget that the quality of a technique is a means to an end. That end is to make an overall image look as good as possible in the eye of the one experiencing the graphics.Everybody talks about the good implementation of ray tracing in MM but VFXVeterant keep saying it’s not the same quality as what we have in WD:L.
So what is the more important? The final look or the quality of it?
More like pray.Preach.
To get around the limitations of cubemaps and SSR.Besides "why do we need brute force RT please":
And you would be wrong and your comment comes off as arrogant and ignorant at the same time. Ubisoft has multiplatforms to think about when making their graphics engine A 1st party doesnt' have to worry about that. Ubi's graphics engine is more robust and definitely contains more tech in it.
Spiderman MM reflections are complete garbage compared to WD:L reflections. They don't look better by any strech of the imagination. Just by avoiding the original shader calls in MM should make you see the difference right there.
Ubi is huge dude. Just like all the other large studios that have way more money and resources because they have to support multiple platforms. It does NOT mean their graphics engine is automatically unoptimized just because its a 3rd party company.
Besides "why do we need brute force RT please":
DF video, seriously? Why not wccf? Give me a break..
PS
:Oh, look, a DF moron can read a patent about RT and figure how cards performs, seems legit:
Which frame in the Unreal 5 demo demonstrates that?(Lumen doesn't currently help with this)
Notice the lack of reflectivity in the water from 4:02.Which frame in the Unreal 5 demo demonstrates that?
Watchdogs has better reflections upon close inspection but in actual gameplay most of the reflections on screen at any one time are either screen space or cubemaps, only surfaces very close to the player actually get proper raytraced reflections, and these reflections have a very short cull-distance.
Your argument is the part on the left that is ray-traced is better, as it reflects higher detailed models, includes debris, reflections of reflections and all that jazz. But my argument is when I'm walking around in the game I'm not noticing that,
TLDR; Legion looks crappy in comparison, and you trying to compare 3090 RT reflections with a £350 console and struggling just shows how great a job Insomniac did.
Notice the lack of reflectivity in the water from 4:02.
"Also while Lumen is great on rougher reflective objects, we currently don’t support mirror reflections on smooth objects."
The only solutions I am aware of to solve this are planar reflections (only work on flat surfaces), hardware or software ray tracing, or SSR blended with ray tracing to handle the off screen reflections. If there was a cheap and accurate solution, it would be great, given the cost of ray tracing.
Well, GoW had plenty of reflective surfaces, not sure which tricks out of your lists were used, if at all: