Bits N Pieces
Member
Just when you think this thread has ran its course, it gets a second wind. Or in its case about its eighth one, lol.
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DigitalFoundry: RotTR Xbox One X vs PS4 Pro First Look Graphics Comaprison
- Thread starter Colbert
- Start date
TGO
Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
Cutscenes are softer than gameplay but I'd put that down to processing effects?
And yes theres a bit of an over exaggeration going on over the net with comparison, it's a 4k native shot vs a Zoomed in CB shot, it's obvious a difference will be there, one has the native pixels to allow Zooming the other don't.
Liabe Brave
Member
The point is that you're using "rendering" incorrectly. That's a general term for building a pixel buffer, not tied to any specific technique. Raytracing does not use the same method as typical games--and it might not happen in realtime either--yet it's definitely still "rendering".
You're correct that in CBR half the pixels render in a different manner, which will usually be less accurate for at least some areas of the image. And yes, CBR takes less performance to achieve for the same resolution (which is why you might use it).
But to this you seem to add a strange insistence that, because the method can be less accurate, taking this shortcut is always a bad idea, always ending in much worse results. In fact, CBR can produce completely identical results to native rendering. And while that outcome may be extremely rare, producing identical results for most of a frame will be less so. And results indistinguishable during full-speed gameplay more common still, and so on.
Screenspace reflections are rough approximations, and diverge from accuracy often and by big amounts. That's not a reason to say SSR are a cheap, terrible shortcut and any game that includes them can't be said to have good graphics.
Each case should be judged separately, without assumptions based just on the name of the tech involved. That's what I'm trying to convey.
You're of course free to prefer whatever, but these techniques are not just to emulate the look of movies. They are methods to recreate the effects of any optical system containing lenses and biased light-sensing surfaces. This includes the human eye.
Just to follow up on this, here is a quick and dirty zoomed in pic showing what CBR artifacts looks like in TR. I hope it turn out right lol. I was going to share a similar native 4K picture to show a similar scene without these artifacts but I really don't want to make it seem like I'm bashing the Pro. You can see the artifacts around the glow stick and especially the plastic loop connecting it to her belt. A native 4K image wouldn't have random pixels popping out as we see here. Hope this helps.
TGO
Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
I see, so this is like a fail, a Cbr miscalculation of sorts.
chromatic9
Member
Added fxaa, and the other post effects plus Lara is probably more in the dof focal range.
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/116078
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/116078
TGO
Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
Wow that looks closer to what the Pro is outputting the texture details are completely goneAdded fxaa, and the other post effects plus Lara is probably more in the dof focal range.
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/116078
thelastword
Banned
And there it is, just as I expected, this is looking so close to the PRO pic now...Look at how blurry it gets with DOF and FXAA on, pretty much masking lots of detail....Added fxaa, and the other post effects plus Lara is probably more in the dof focal range.
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/116078
Awesome work though.....Appreciated...
mysteriousmage09
Member
Added fxaa, and the other post effects plus Lara is probably more in the dof focal range.
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/116078
Good lord that detail loss....
blastprocessor
The Amiga Brotherhood
You guys are persistent
HeWhoWalks
Gold Member
Yeah, it's pretty massive, but the resolution is still higher on the PC than the Pro with those things all on (Native 4K vs CB, of course). Checking the link really shows the difference.
Either way, if those details are added to the X1X version, we'll be able to better assess it.
It's there but I've only ever noticed it in still, zoomed in photos.
Didn't John say it's pretty hard to notice in motion?
foolishoptimist
Member
Of checkerboard, he said the opposite. With no motion, ie. not much difference between last frame and this frame, it should be a crystal clear image(depending on target resolution).
In motion, it comes down to how well the render determines the off pixels to compensate for the games motion. There's multiple methods, and Guerilla came up with their own for Horizon, and DF consider that the best-in-class CB implementation.
He did say "Looks great in motion" of the PC version, when the texture detail loss due to Post Effects was brought up.
I can get behind this. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
😏
RedAssedApe
Banned
almost to 40 pages lol
It can be hard depending on the quality of the implementation and how close you sit to the screen. It's also easier to spot if you have an idea where to look. FWIW, I thought the game was gorgeous when capturing the screenshot, so it's definitely not a deal breaker. IMO Horizon Zero Dawn does a better job with the technique, though I'm sure that's not really a unique opinion.
Sad Affleck
Member
The human eye allows me to change my focus and look at whatever I want at the best possible clarity depending on distance. Using these effects in a non-interactive medium makes sense because the director ultimately chooses what he wants to focus on. In an interactive medium and outside of cutscenes I have the freedom to look anywhere and focus on anything. It makes no sense to immpair my vision in such a way.
This is off-topic so I'll probably make a new thread discussing this at some point.
VoodooProject
Member
All these tweaks on PC just to make it look the same...
It has depth of field enabled as we've said from the beginning.
Pro uses CB with lower graphics while the other two modes are 1080p.
Your screen is a flat picture 2 to 15ft away from your face. There's nothing natural about displaying distant objects with pin sharp precision. I agree that many games go too far, but let's not pretend we can all see like hawks in the natural world if we just focus.
ShadowkillXNA
Member
I don't see what you're trying to do here. Oh wait yes I do. You're shit posting/questioning someones justifications for their choices, carrying out a witch hunt, and being disengenous while doing it.
Pretty telling.
Head.spawn
Junior Member
Except that doesn't explain away the huge difference in blur between PS4 Pro and the PC shot you're referring to at all.
Team Andromeda
Member
I really don't know why you're even bothering to answer questions already addressed in the video (if only people took the time to watch and listen to the Tom Radier DF video) never mind trying to reason with the PlayStation Generation fanboys. You don't have to be an expert to see and notice the difference between a game running on a PS4 (never Pro) to the same game running on XBox One S, one can see the issues on the lesser hardware. It's going to be no different with the One X and PS4 Pro.
I wouldn't say too much, but this isn't even final code maybe the finished Tomb Raider on One X will look even better. All this fuss on unfished code and games. The real test comes in November not only for DF but more so Microsoft and its One X
ShadowkillXNA
Member
The pc shot with dof turned on really doesnt look that much better than the ps4 pro shot other than the higher quality textures and some added sharpness from the higher resolution to me. And the pc shot with the dof turned off is practically identical to the xbox one shot.
Really curious to see the ps4 pro version with the dof turned off though that seems to be impossible without the devs help.
Yeah, I've seen this in the game during cut-scene playback. It seems to be related to CB rendering. If you pause the game during this scene (while those artefacts are visible) you can see them flickering wildly in the background behind the menu. It doesn't happen too often but it's fascinating to look at. You don't get this on PC, obviously, or when using the 1080p modes.here lets see if Gaf can tell me what this is
can you see the blocky effect on the jacket and her hair and edges
you can also see it here on the grenade
what is that? and this is from the same cutscene.
TGO
Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
I thought as much just like Kage said.Yeah, I've seen this in the game during cut-scene playback. It seems to be related to CB rendering. If you pause the game during this scene (while those artefacts are visible) you can see them flickering wildly in the background behind the menu. It doesn't happen too often but it's fascinating to look at. You don't get this on PC, obviously, or when using the 1080p modes.
Thanks Dark10x.
HeWhoWalks
Gold Member
He's answering questions (and not calling people names) because he's a reasonable guy. You should try it.
Always-honest
Banned
Lol.. this thread. The One X will be more powerful. If devs take a little effort, games will look better on it. What's so hard about that?
Having said that, let's wait till the release of the game.
Having said that, let's wait till the release of the game.
You know what it is. The question is how much of a difference.
Always-honest
Banned
We'll see.
Colbert
Banned
Eurogamer has updated their comparison based on the feedback out of this thread. I added the new face comparison to the OP:
Source: https://twitter.com/digitalfoundry/status/902827675617767424
Source: https://twitter.com/digitalfoundry/status/902827675617767424
You must have missed all the posts about the differences barely being noticeable or it would be a wash in all the earlier 1X/Scorpio threads. =p
Always-honest
Banned
Eurogamer has updated their comparison based on the feedback out of this thread. I added the new face comparison to the OP:
Source: https://twitter.com/digitalfoundry/status/902827675617767424
X still looks better but we need to take a look at the final version of the game to confirm that.
I'm sure it'll be incredible for people that are playing on X1 or PS4 but not so much for people that are playing on Pro, too early to judge though.
Flickering is most likely from CB as you said.Yeah, I've seen this in the game during cut-scene playback. It seems to be related to CB rendering. If you pause the game during this scene (while those artefacts are visible) you can see them flickering wildly in the background behind the menu. It doesn't happen too often but it's fascinating to look at. You don't get this on PC, obviously, or when using the 1080p modes.
My guess for the horrid resolution is from DoF sampling a 960x540 image. (Perhaps a same resolution as used in 1080p mode.)
There seems to be 4x4 blocking at edge of the cube.
The thing is, if you flick through frame by frame, the cube becomes sharp at some point. I'm not sure it's related to DoF.Flickering is most likely from CB as you said.
My guess for the horrid resolution is from DoF sampling a 960x540 image. (Perhaps a same resolution as used in 1080p mode.)
There seems to be 4x4 blocking at edge of the cube.
Having played it on XOX, I do think it's a sizable upgrade. The textures ARE higher quality and the image quality is improved.
On XOX, you can even use the "enriched mode" with a 4K checkerboard-like solution which means image quality similar to Pro's 4K Resolution mode but with more details enabled (such as tessellation). It should be a nice bump.
In Service
Member
Eurogamer has updated their comparison based on the feedback out of this thread. I added the new face comparison to the OP:
Source: https://twitter.com/digitalfoundry/status/902827675617767424
Nice.
So, what's been bothering me about all of these shots is the harsh line between the teeth and upper lip line. In all of them. Although maybe not as clear on the Pro due to the blur. The rest of the image is just pretty.
I've been staring at these pictures for days now and it's really getting to me. Just wanted to share.
HeWhoWalks
Gold Member
In that screenshot, the X1X and PC are near even (PC is a bit sharper). Of course they both look better than the Pro, but the best we'll have is to see it when all effects are enabled (if that happens).
I do find it odd that everyone is so focused on the face, to be honest, as I feel the differences are much more interesting elsewhere.
Like, we see that the jacket and scarf textures do look much sharper on PC and XOX but the PC table top is sharpest of all. XOX is blurrier while PS4 Pro is much blurrier than that. The edge of the table, though, is similar on PC and XOX but blurrier again on PS4 Pro.
Can't tell if it's a texture filtering thing (the angle isn't that steep) or they've introduced some medium ground between High and Very High. Or maybe PS4 Pro is below High for certain scenes? All things to check in the final release!
Like, we see that the jacket and scarf textures do look much sharper on PC and XOX but the PC table top is sharpest of all. XOX is blurrier while PS4 Pro is much blurrier than that. The edge of the table, though, is similar on PC and XOX but blurrier again on PS4 Pro.
Can't tell if it's a texture filtering thing (the angle isn't that steep) or they've introduced some medium ground between High and Very High. Or maybe PS4 Pro is below High for certain scenes? All things to check in the final release!
Colbert
Banned
Clarkus Darkus
Member
As someone with the PRO, It looks like crap next to the XBX and PC, The blurry image makes it look woeful, It's a good job i'm all about VR and Pro was worth it for that alone.
Fair do's too the XBX though, Always thought the Xbox console should be a power house machine, So it's about time they finally get it.
Fair do's too the XBX though, Always thought the Xbox console should be a power house machine, So it's about time they finally get it.
papersleeves
Member
I agree. The table is one of the first thing I noticed. Speaking of Xbox One X and PC, starting with the original screenshot comparison, you can see that the PC version resolves more details on some spots even with all the post process going on. The rest looks identical though.
As for the PS4 Pro, Did someone try to replicate the Pro settings using the PC version? Do we get a really similar screenshot if we use normal DoF and high texture settings for example?
I have both versions so I can do it if no one has done it so far.
Anyway, I really want to see the Xbox One X enriched mode with their own CB rendering solution running in front of my eyes. This will be one nice spectacle to behold if their solution is just as good as the one they use on PS4 Pro *thumbs up*
Sad Affleck
Member
Almost all of them. I have no objection to a well-placed effect but most modern games blur the shit out of everything. The game this thread is about is a good example.
To be fair, the Pro version still looks great. I was impressed when taking screenshots for my cropped picture.
I think it's great that Nixxes has put in the work to take advantage of every platform they worked on.
Colbert
Banned
I agree, the Pro version looks great if you take into account the specs this is based on. The X1X just looks better as it has a major advantage in spec on almost every hw facette.
chromatic9
Member
Yeah I posted a comparison the other day. Looks like PC low though.
Seems a bit strange to not get any credit solving the issue people had. Made a full comparison and provided and SMAA DoF disabled shot. Seems like someone just saw what I posted and did the same?
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=247141614#post247141614
Hours before even you was saying DoF wasn't anything to do with it.
It was someone on Twitter that helped obtain the PC shot and I'm not sure if there was even a GAF connection there. This whole situation was a nightmare to deal with and this thread so large it's difficult to keep track of what's what but I apologize for not thinking of you! Your shots definitely helped steer the conversation in the right direction! Being out of town, I lost the ability to test any of this for myself which is what made it much more difficult. It's not strange at all, it's just the result of chaos.Yeah I posted a comparison the other day. Looks like PC low though.
Seems a bit strange to not get any credit solving the issue people had. Made a full comparison and provided and SMAA DoF disabled shot. Seems like someone just saw what I posted and did the same?
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=247141614#post247141614
Hours before even you was saying DoF wasn't anything to do with it.
I'm not sure I understand the table resolution thing since all other textures appear consistent with Very High. Based on your shot there, the PS4 Pro version would fall below the Low setting but we know that it uses High textures for most of the presentation. It's very strange.
Wasn't it confirmed that was simply shorter DoF in that particular cutscene? Gameplay won't be impacted in the same way if I'm understanding correctly?