-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Disc rot: The silent killer curbing video game preservation
- Thread starter Poetic.Injustice
- Start date
KojiKnight
Member
We've had this exact thread a time or two, still scary for collectors, but the only real way to preserve software is to get it on the internet. Decentralize the data. Retail games have little worry, but one of a kind prototypes aren't going to be so lucky.
Convincing proto collectors things is hard because some of them have spent thousands of dollars on single games... But sooner or later there proto would be worthless to themselves and everyone else.
Convincing proto collectors things is hard because some of them have spent thousands of dollars on single games... But sooner or later there proto would be worthless to themselves and everyone else.
calc84maniac
Member
Game cards are the future
don't they have batteries that run out?
chaobreaker
Member
Nintendo was right.
John Caboose
Member
There is also bit rot. Nothing is inherently safe. One needs redundant self-healing copies being transferred to new media now and then.
NoFaceNico
Member
Every few months we get another gloom n' doom article about disc rot. I collect mostly PS1 and PS2 games but also some Sega CD (laserdisc movies too) and I have never ever come across it, not even once.
I'm sure it's a problem but I hate it when these articles claim- some think the problem is of limited scope... BUT IT'S NOT!!! Then why don't we have more examples? Why aren't retro game shops checking for disc rot instead of scratches? If it truly was a problem, then based on the size of my collection I figure I would have come across it by now. Or is disc rot like rust and since I don't live in the rust belt I'm not susceptible to it?
I'm sure it's a problem but I hate it when these articles claim- some think the problem is of limited scope... BUT IT'S NOT!!! Then why don't we have more examples? Why aren't retro game shops checking for disc rot instead of scratches? If it truly was a problem, then based on the size of my collection I figure I would have come across it by now. Or is disc rot like rust and since I don't live in the rust belt I'm not susceptible to it?
I looked through all my CD games the last time this was brought up and found one that had a pin-sized hole that light could shine through (Detana Twinbee Deluxe for the Sega Saturn).
The game still plays fine. Hopefully someone can correct me if I'm wrong on this, but my understanding is that for a lot of these early CD-based games most of the data is actually taken up by the music so you're more likely to come across some kind of sound glitch than a game-breaking problem?
Either way, I don't buy old games as collector's items. I buy them to actually play them. If some of them stop working in fifteen, twenty, or however many years, I'll have gotten my enjoyment out of them.
The game still plays fine. Hopefully someone can correct me if I'm wrong on this, but my understanding is that for a lot of these early CD-based games most of the data is actually taken up by the music so you're more likely to come across some kind of sound glitch than a game-breaking problem?
Either way, I don't buy old games as collector's items. I buy them to actually play them. If some of them stop working in fifteen, twenty, or however many years, I'll have gotten my enjoyment out of them.
Do newer technologies such as blu-ray have further protections against the possibility of these issues?
Really too bad about a lot of the older stuff. Laserdiscs from the 70s I can understand, but when you start hearing about newer stuff like PS1 games then it becomes clear this problem is inching more and more towards impacting the modern era of gaming.
Really too bad about a lot of the older stuff. Laserdiscs from the 70s I can understand, but when you start hearing about newer stuff like PS1 games then it becomes clear this problem is inching more and more towards impacting the modern era of gaming.
In my years of collecting, I've yet to encounter any game I own with disc rot. Hopefully not jinxing myself here. But I do agree that this potential problem only amplifies the need for thorough digital archiving for preservation.
Between future disc rot and DLC/patches, preservation of current gen games is going to be an absolute nightmare.
Between future disc rot and DLC/patches, preservation of current gen games is going to be an absolute nightmare.
Older cartridges like NES, SNES or Gameboy games have batteries that save the game (though those are replaceable, but you lose your save).
Newer game cards like DS, 3DS or Switch games either use flash memory on the cart or in the system to save games.
Popsickles
Member
Why would he open factory sealed game to check.
Poetic.Injustice
Member
Read the link.
Because he cares less about the "collectors object" value of a factory sealed CD, and more about having a scratch-free "mint" collection full of playable games that boot up decades later with zero issues.
"Factory sealed" to him is just proof that the game is unused and has no scratches. Once he realized that proof is not so true, and a stealth threat to his mint collection might be secretly hiding under that seal, he tore the seal off in order to check.
Save RAM batteries are super easy to replace. Also as the name suggests they only effect saves (and only on older systems as newer devices use flash or external memory for saves instead). The actual game data is stored on Mask-ROM, which could potentially last forever (or at least a very long time) if stored in the right condition.
The exception to this, however, are Vita game cards, which are actually made of NAND flash rather than Mask-ROM, so if they're not powered on at least once every decades or so, they'll eventually lose they're data.
always crazy bacon
Banned
I have PC Engine CD's from 1988, still no problem, I have audio CD's even older than that, no problem. I've seen this doom and gloom topic on disc rot since I was first on the internet in 1997. I know it's possible but it's not as common as these articles always say.
Did they mention Bit Rot? They usually never do and that is far more common.
sammyCYBORG
Member
It's a shame for people who want physical collections but not really an issue for preservation.
Anything older than the PS3/360 generation I play exclusively on my PC.
Games are best played on emulators since you can improve resolution, AA, etc anyway.
As long as they exist in digital form there's no real issue.
Anything older than the PS3/360 generation I play exclusively on my PC.
Games are best played on emulators since you can improve resolution, AA, etc anyway.
As long as they exist in digital form there's no real issue.
-shadow-
Member
I have a few of the very first commercial audio CDs pressed in the early 80's and some have some very small pinholes. An accurate rip also shows that some of the bits aren't as they should be, however thankfully I don't hear that and CD tech can catch the little missing bits and fix it to some extend.
But preserving anything is a battle against time itself. It's a shame that game preservation doesn't seem nearly as important to many as film. But it really should honestly.
But preserving anything is a battle against time itself. It's a shame that game preservation doesn't seem nearly as important to many as film. But it really should honestly.
runnin_blue
Banned
It's strange, I've heard of disk rot and I don't doubt it exists, but I have never witnessed it personally ever. I have thousands of optical media and have never encountered it. I have burned disks on the cheapest of cheap CDs that are probably over 20 years old and they still work & look fine. Even the ones I haven't looked after and are scratched to shit after sliding around loose for years upon years.
Makes me wonder if it's the conditions they are kept in. For example, if they are kept in a basement or attic. Mine have always been kept in a box, in a spare room, out of sunlight.
Curious.
Makes me wonder if it's the conditions they are kept in. For example, if they are kept in a basement or attic. Mine have always been kept in a box, in a spare room, out of sunlight.
Curious.
Maybe climate has something to do with it too. We have fairly mild winters and summers in the UK so house temperatures don't have much variation and I have never seen disc rot.
I've got thousands of CDs, DVDs and Blu rays and I've got a problem with one disc, a criterion edition T2 DVD that I imported from the states over a decade ago.
-shadow-
Member
Except it unfortunately doesn't.
Linkstrikesback
Member
I mean... you could vaccuum store them and it'd probably help. For something actually practical, It's basically the material on the discs rotting, so keeping them in dry areas out of the sun and just generally treating them well will make it take longer, I assume?
panama chief
Member
As a collector...he wasn't going to play the games anyways 🤣
For real tho, digital preservation is the way to go. Back up your back ups.
For real tho, digital preservation is the way to go. Back up your back ups.
I found a solution: An ISO image. Then put the data on a RAID and replace disks as they keep failing.
There should really be a public institution that does this with all digital media.
There should really be a public institution that does this with all digital media.
Caayn
Member
Every storage mechanism is subjectable to data deterioration, including hard disks. Hard disks actually lose data faster if they aren't used.
jasminlovesyoux
Banned
I've had a few of my Sega Saturn games get this which really really sucks. Thing is only a handful got it yet I stored all of my collection in the same spot.
you can switch the battery. It's super easy, I've done it to all my GB games that use one.
battery started to leak here and I could clean it up
kruis
Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
Disc rot is the result of a bad production process at specific disk pressing plants. It could be that Sega Saturn games that went bad were made in the same factory at roughly the same time.
protomouse
Member
One of the many downsides to optical media.
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
This is why you back this shit up.
Leithkorias
Member
I was thinking the same thing.....wtf is the point?
To check and see if my game is worthless, Im going to make ot worth less.
Azure Phoenix
Member
Could have been worthless, you can still buy sealed Dreamcast games like Jet Set Radio in the UK for a few quid.
Hold up a sec. This is extremely pedantic of me, but what you're talking about - parity bits, sanity checks, data correction, etc on redbook take place at the reading stage. Playback can indeed correct some errors based on several factors, but if it does, the resultant data stream or rip SHOULD be bit-identical to what it originally was.
That being said it's also completely possible for unrecoverable errors to still be inaudible despite not being bit-accurate.
In other words, none of what you're saying is inherently wrong alone, but the configuration of the sentence makes it a little off-the-mark.
don't hurt me
On that note, different formats of data on discs (redbook being one, CD-ROMs being another, all the various proprietary game formats being others) typically have error correction/redundancy to combat this as well to certain extents, usually better than with redbook since it doesn't really matter as much if an audio CD skips for a moment vs a piece of software crashing.
Nothing much else to add to this thread other than disc rot *IS* a problem, often is on the onus of the manufacturing but even the best discs aren't going to last forever. Optical media lifespan can be very long, but it's not infinite.
edit: And if you think optical media is bad, I don't think you've experienced virtually half the floppies you own having CRC errors just a decade down the line from when it was all mint.
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
It's stuff like this that makes me want to get rid of my saturn collection while it's worth thousands...
Are rips error prone from dumping isos? The SNES thread about so many roms having bad dumps has me curious now.
No one should have to watch their games rot before them. :'(
Are rips error prone from dumping isos? The SNES thread about so many roms having bad dumps has me curious now.
Hold up a sec. This is extremely pedantic of me, but what you're talking about - parity bits, sanity checks, data correction, etc on redbook take place at the reading stage. Playback can indeed correct some errors based on several factors, but if it does, the resultant data stream or rip SHOULD be bit-identical to what it originally was.
That being said it's also completely possible for unrecoverable errors to still be inaudible despite not being bit-accurate.
In other words, none of what you're saying is inherently wrong alone, but the configuration of the sentence makes it a little off-the-mark.
don't hurt me
On that note, different formats of data on discs (redbook being one, CD-ROMs being another, all the various proprietary game formats being others) typically have error correction/redundancy to combat this as well to certain extents, usually better than with redbook since it doesn't really matter as much if an audio CD skips for a moment vs a piece of software crashing.
Nothing much else to add to this thread other than disc rot *IS* a problem, often is on the onus of the manufacturing but even the best discs aren't going to last forever. Optical media lifespan can be very long, but it's not infinite.
edit: And if you think optical media is bad, I don't think you've experienced virtually half the floppies you own having CRC errors just a decade down the line from when it was all mint.
No one should have to watch their games rot before them. :'(
Another reason to stop buying physical: your security is an illusion.
I've made the argument before, but the necessity of patches makes disc preservation pointless, anyway.
Some Saturn games just won't work on CD-R, including Panzer Dragoon 2: Zwei & Panzer Dragoon Saga.
I've made the argument before, but the necessity of patches makes disc preservation pointless, anyway.
Some Saturn games just won't work on CD-R, including Panzer Dragoon 2: Zwei & Panzer Dragoon Saga.
Zaraki_Kenpachi
Member
LOL, except not