Fimbulvetr
Member
lowhighkang_LHK said:
Liking a game means you must want to squee over every aspect of it. Likewise, disliking a game means everything about it was the worst thing in the universe.
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DmC Devil May Cry shown live to the press, 30fps confirmed
- Thread starter jett
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Liking a game means you must want to squee over every aspect of it. Likewise, disliking a game means everything about it was the worst thing in the universe.
First Name
Member
Yeah, they keep going on about how angry he is and it's really off putting. If they make it a constant thing it will get old fast.gutter_trash said:
This whole Dante is "angry" is an obvious story angle. If you guys listened to what NT has been saying throughout... they say that the demons survey and kill humans. Dante was affected PERSONALLY by this demon activity (this is quoted directly) and that's why he is angry. This is clearly "demons killed my family so I am going to hunt them down" mentality that made him who he is and it led to his final revenge battle with Mundus in DMC1. This iteration of the game is him getting used to there being demons, hunting them and getting into combat mode while evolving his powers and tapping into his bloodline.
I mean people say that this is not totally going to lead into DMC3 but it possibly can. Dante had a full office and a devil hunting office ready to go in DMC3 (plus he was super proficient in combat and styles, only thing he hadn't canonically developed yet was his DT), he just needed a name for it. Dante has no such thing in DmC as of yet so obviously stuff like that is going to be explained.
Going to be checking out the old trailers for a game play analysis based on the information released in the previews.
I mean people say that this is not totally going to lead into DMC3 but it possibly can. Dante had a full office and a devil hunting office ready to go in DMC3 (plus he was super proficient in combat and styles, only thing he hadn't canonically developed yet was his DT), he just needed a name for it. Dante has no such thing in DmC as of yet so obviously stuff like that is going to be explained.
Going to be checking out the old trailers for a game play analysis based on the information released in the previews.
spiderman123
Member
What I just watched was DMC ( imo). I gonna pass on this one.
I have 7 button configs in DMCSE, so I know. Dante in DMC4 has clunky controls even if they are doable. It should be avoided where possible. DMC3 with custom configs is perfect. Though, there is an issue with weapon buffering while performing style jump cancels. There isn't any elegant solution there and I have a custom crappy config for it.ezekial45 said:
I'm familiar with the controls...lowhighkang_LHK said:
I'm with you as usual.Dahbomb said:
Yep. As Dahbomb said style switching != weapon switching. There are link cancels in DMC3SE for example that can require weapon switching in intervals of a second, very true. Going to the d-pad while manning other buttons is nightmarish.First Name said:
Just because we like a game doesn't mean we like everything about it. D-pad switching sucks.lowhighkang_LHK said:
Incorrect. Jump back cancels on aerial frame links is just one example. That would require d-pad inputs and analog toggling within seconds. That is not comfortable.lowhighkang_LHK said:
Agreed. Everything we stated was confirmed in the interview. As I said, there will be a ton of smoke and mirrors going on. And chances are the depth will be tapped in weeks time. However, we can lay to rest the speculation.Dahbomb said:
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
It's also interesting to note, that when I started my first year at med school, naturally - you don't want to take your consoles with you. But I did bring my laptop. I had the itch to play some DMC3 and DMC4 again, and unfortunately on my generic laptop the best I could do was average about 24 fps on DMC4 and DMC3 (fuck DMC3 was worse maybe).
And, after some getting used to - maybe an half hour? I was doing a lot of the advanced stuff I was doing with the games on consoles. The the thing that took the most time to adjust was jump canceling multiple helm breakers. But it could be done.
I still remember to this day, back when it seemed like the OG Devil May Cry crew (me, Dwarfkicker, JustaNewbie, Yurisealprime) were all trying to instill the concept of jump canceling, and prevention of enemy knockback (ugh, one of DMC2's biggest problems) into Ben Judd's head after the release of DMC2. It took him so long to finally figure out what the fuck we were talking about and he took it to the DMC3 team. I'd like to think that's what helped get DMC3 back on track. Man we were giving him like combat design docs on a daily basis.
...good times.
But anyway, if I could do a lot of the top tier stuff in regards to DMC combat on laptop running at sub 30 fps, I think a lot of those things can be captured at a game running at 30 fps with inputs at 60 fps.
And without a doubt, there are somethings that have one frame inputs required per second, but if I really want to pull that stuff, I'd just go back to DMC3 for that. I'm interested in some of the new concepts that are in DmC. As I was interested in some of the new concepts that existed in DMC4 (compared to DMC3).
Even DMC1, had the enemy jump cancel into shotgun infinite loop. In the other DMC games, shotgun causes knock back in air. But in DMC1, it propels the enemy further upward. So you just jump cancel. I still to this day love doing that. And it's one of the things that only work in DMC1.
And, after some getting used to - maybe an half hour? I was doing a lot of the advanced stuff I was doing with the games on consoles. The the thing that took the most time to adjust was jump canceling multiple helm breakers. But it could be done.
I still remember to this day, back when it seemed like the OG Devil May Cry crew (me, Dwarfkicker, JustaNewbie, Yurisealprime) were all trying to instill the concept of jump canceling, and prevention of enemy knockback (ugh, one of DMC2's biggest problems) into Ben Judd's head after the release of DMC2. It took him so long to finally figure out what the fuck we were talking about and he took it to the DMC3 team. I'd like to think that's what helped get DMC3 back on track. Man we were giving him like combat design docs on a daily basis.
...good times.
But anyway, if I could do a lot of the top tier stuff in regards to DMC combat on laptop running at sub 30 fps, I think a lot of those things can be captured at a game running at 30 fps with inputs at 60 fps.
And without a doubt, there are somethings that have one frame inputs required per second, but if I really want to pull that stuff, I'd just go back to DMC3 for that. I'm interested in some of the new concepts that are in DmC. As I was interested in some of the new concepts that existed in DMC4 (compared to DMC3).
Even DMC1, had the enemy jump cancel into shotgun infinite loop. In the other DMC games, shotgun causes knock back in air. But in DMC1, it propels the enemy further upward. So you just jump cancel. I still to this day love doing that. And it's one of the things that only work in DMC1.
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
And I agree that style switching in DMC4 was annoying via D-pad. It's difficult to do mid combo.
In fact, even the weapon cycling concept in DMC4 was annoying, as opposed to the weapon switching that existed in DMC 3.
But what would be an alternative? You essentially have style switching and weapon switching. One has to be applied to the other.
Maybe style switching is more important than weapon switching. So when something has to be prioritized, you go with shoulders for one and d-pad for the other.
Ultimately this is a mute point - I don't think the control scheme was really explained to begin with. Interestingly, if they would actually answer our questions, this one would be a good one to ask.
In fact, even the weapon cycling concept in DMC4 was annoying, as opposed to the weapon switching that existed in DMC 3.
But what would be an alternative? You essentially have style switching and weapon switching. One has to be applied to the other.
Maybe style switching is more important than weapon switching. So when something has to be prioritized, you go with shoulders for one and d-pad for the other.
Ultimately this is a mute point - I don't think the control scheme was really explained to begin with. Interestingly, if they would actually answer our questions, this one would be a good one to ask.
Visual confirms are a big concern. You also have to question the speed at 30fps due to animation constraints. I don't expect Rebellion first attack SM style jump canceling speed. I'm also concerned about jump speed and the number of levels. If you remove twitch forward canceling, you are killing a tonDahbomb said:
I'm expecting a lot more charge attacks and less rapid inputs. Not sure about mashing. You should definitely reference previous NT game combos/controls if you know them. I'm going to at least glance at an faq.
First Name
Member
Someone mentioned how weapons should feel very differently and I agree. Something more than just different ways of swinging a long object around. Ifrit/Beowulf/Gilgamesh were some of my favorite gaming weapons because of that. But maybe the sub weapons will be better. I think they really need to differentiate the main weapons for each form though.
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
First Name said:
There are more than those weapons.
What you're seeing is sword, scythe and axe. Judging from what was said - this is all part of the same 'morphing' weapon that constitutes it's forms via style. Angel, human or devil. That other weapons, are going to have individual forms depending on the style.
Much how the properties and applications of rebellion, changes depending on what level and style you have. Except these changes are now more visually relevant.
You would have to define "advanced." Good luck doing forward SM twitch cancels on small window hit confirms @ 24fps. You'll probably claim you can but I would a) doubt it - b) cite how ineffective it is.lowhighkang_LHK said:
Sure, at about 1/10th the efficiency. I can also drive my car with my elbows.lowhighkang_LHK said:
And I'm sure they were wishing upon a star every chance they got to not have to work around a shitty frame-rate.Finaika said:
You build a combat system that doesn't rely on those mechanics. Having a ton of options and relying on odd button configs is not necessarily a good thing.lowhighkang_LHK said:
Monocle
Member
I'm prepared to allow myself a tinge of cautious optimism if TA sincerely acknowledged fans' concerns, and if the 60 fps inputs really do give DmC's controls proper responsiveness. Could these be the first stirrings of an updraft that will raise DmC to the level of DMC2, or dare I hope, beyond it? I won't hold my breath, but just maybe...
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
gunbo13 said:
I'm unaware of that terminology. Explain what that is. I have seen a lot of stuff, and have done a lot of stuff in DMC3, but I'm not up to date with certainly terminology. Unfortunately my brain is more reserved for medical terminology at this point in my life.
Are you talking about moving the analog stick to reset the sword animations so you can repeat the other one immediately after.
Like in DMC1, O, O (analog twitch) and then you can repeat the first two slashes of Dante's Alastor (O,O) infinitely with no delay?
Because I saw some of your videos that I cared to watch in the DMC anniv, thread - all that was being done I was aware and could replicate myself. Even on my laptop. But I'm not aware of some of the terminologies. It feels like I'm back at EVO and people are saying "SWAG combos" all the time.
First Name
Member
Yeah, that's what I sa- just nevermind.lowhighkang_LHK said:
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
sn00zer said:
LOL, no.
Maybe about 1% of the active DMC community.
And in the general population, like - real life, I'd say 0.001%
So, I'm engaged with this discussion because I like this stuff about DMC, and I used to egange myself in this elitist form of discussion and execution back in the days of DMC3 (vanilla) i.e, when I had more free time, but it doesn't concern .. well, next to everyone on GAF. So don't worry about it.
keltickennedy
Member
This is a big plan setup by Capcom. Have another developer completely ruin the franchise, so in 2-3 years they will announce their internally developed DMC with the original Dante. They will go on to sell millions of copies and be the saviors of the franchise.
Right guys???..............Right?
Right guys???..............Right?
First Name
Member
We can only hope. No matter how this little experiment turns out I don't want classic DMC to die out.keltickennedy said:
R_thanatos
Member
Imm0rt4l said:
After 4 games ? seriously ?
No.lowhighkang_LHK said:
I doubt it but claim what you want.lowhighkang_LHK said:
No, but we do exist.sn00zer said:
No, I will refrain. You know what I'm talking about with this stuff (also Wolf/Guardian) but that's probably the extent on gaf. It will just be a wash. I'm not trying to be a jerk to the thread. But as an example, you wrote a constitution on the combat so people should get that this intricate stuff.Dahbomb said:Oh it's about to get REALLY gibberish up in here in a bit.
Actually, screw that.
[cerb/beo SM]
[ground string -> early jump cancel swing -> three variable forward canceling jump cancels -> jump delay -> lower to upper body jump cancels on hit confirm -> ground string -> launch, crush -> double enemy down jump cancels -> finisher]
[O + /\ + /\] -> [Forward + /\ + R1(EJC)] + [/\ + R1(JC)] +[/\ + R1(JC)] + [O + R1 (JC)] + R2(WS) -> [DELAY] + [Forward + /\ + R1(j-canc)] +[Forward + /\ + R1(j-canc)] + O -> /\ + /\ + [Back + /\ (short charge, rapid tap)] + O + [Forward + /\ + R1(j-canc)] + [Forward + /\ + R1(j-canc)] + [Forward + O]
One SM combo, 11 seconds. I couldn't help myself. We speak in hieroglyphics and we want our sequels to contain these abilities.
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
gunbo13 said:
No, actually I can do those things. You're not the only 'expert' in DMC. Keep it classy.
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
gunbo13 said:
A lot of the things you're talking existed during the hand vs eye days. Who do you think put up some of those videos?
You're little combo list is representative of the general concept of jump cancels. People have been doing that for some time now. There are variations that exist, but stop acting like you've accomplished some novel, groundbreaking idea that isn't or hasn't already been duplicated by others.
Seriously, get over yourself.
For those wondering the primary foundation for his little "combo description" is based upon enemy step. A purchasable move in DMC4. Also inherent in DMC3.
Your canceling the recovery frames or active frames of an attack by essentially jumping off an enemy. Thereby you can input the commands for the next attack ASAP.
This is probably also the inspiration for Dante's bold cancels in Marvel, allowing you to cancel one special to go into another because of the input of a bold cancel and using the 3 frames per-jump to input a new attack.
This is the very same basis in regards to advanced combos in DMC3. Using various jump cancels or enemy steps and using the frames that exist pre-animation to input a new normal or special.
Gunbo13, while I don't doubt you're probably better at these things than I am, considering I had to move on if you will due to - well, growing up, but to assume that you and Dahbomb are the only ones who can replicate some of these concepts is ridiculous.
And one thing that I tried to do in the past 10 years, on places like hand vs. eye, is to actually translate your hieroglyphics into something that's understandable to the general person.
So again, more people than you realize can pull those things off.
Apparently you are claiming you did. So put up.lowhighkang_LHK said:
Of course the mechanics existed. The game hasn't changed so what's your point?
That's my rebuttal. Call it shit if you think it is shit. I don't care. I like talking to combo DMCgaf who know this stuff because you learn interesting things. UT posted SM combos are mostly no more difficult then the one I cited, including a certain famous one...gunbo13 said:
How about you not belittle my efforts and imply you can do the same without a sweat; without proof?lowhighkang_LHK said:
EDIT:
@24fps no less, lol. I also never gloated once or claimed I was breaking any ground. This was done for the 10th anniversary and to dig deeper into one of my favorite games while sharing the experience.
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
gunbo13 said:
Because for the past 10 years I have been doing this. If you aren't aware of it because you got into the "scene" at a later date after I became less active, than there is nothing I can do on that.
I don't have the current resources to record myself playing DMC3. I don't even have a working PS2 or a backwards compatible ps3 to do so. Nor do I have my PC any longer since I have a Macbook.
Okay, I think it's great you're doing what you're doing. It reminded me of a lot of the shit I used to do 5 years ago. Keep up the good work. You're awesome. And you're much more gifted at the art of elite video game skills than I am. Which is why I did download and enjoy your videos. And spread them to other places for people to watch.
And in regards to my example about pulling off some advanced strats at sub 30 fps, candidly, not everything can be replicated as well, or at all - you're right. But a lot of the break through concepts that help make DMC3, in my opinion, better combat games than Ninja Gaiden and even Bayonetta, are capable to certain extents.
That's really all I was trying to get across earlier. And let's leave it at that, I appreciate a hardcore DMC fan - considering I kind of felt that after the days of DMC1 on various message boards, it was seemingly only me and a few others (call me a DMC1-er, but that game had some interesting set-ups as well using JC's) that really pushed the "scene."
So, you're doing great. Keep it up. Can't wait to see more of your stuff.
So have a ton of people including many who are better then me. Your point?lowhighkang_LHK said:
Give me a break. All I tried to do was bring back the past a bit for a great game on the 10th anniversary. I got excited learning new difficult mechanics and sharing it with fellow fans in the thread.lowhighkang_LHK said:
Some people appreciate the effort it takes to capture terabytes of footage and compile it in HD for fans. I think YOU need to get over yourself.
UT Message said:
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
gunbo13 said:
Maybe you actually didn't notice when I said I actually spread your videos around multiple areas. I even showed your videos off at my friends independent game studio he works for. Using it as a good example of animation vs. game functionality. When one should be sacrificed for the other.
Don't get me wrong, I certainly appreciate the media efforts involved in putting those videos up.
You just kind of rubbed me off the wrong when you doubted that others could pull off the concepts you were doing? Because I know from first hand experience, that a) I can, and b) as many others as well.
But, again - you're very talented. Most likely more than I. You should do a lot more of this when the anniv. hits. Ultimately, this is a kind of conversation that deals with concepts that are obtuse or indifferent to 99% of GAF, so it's pointless. Let's carry on with whatever was being discussed before.
Sorry LHK, I thought you were being sarcastic when you said you were showing off the videos. You have my apology for that.lowhighkang_LHK said:
OK, I personally just got a little tiffed at this:lowhighkang_LHK said:
"Because I saw some of your videos that I cared to watch in the DMC anniv, thread - all that was being done I was aware and could replicate myself. "
That sounded like a belittling comment. If you talked a bit about how much you played in the past, then that would be another thing. But, from my point of view you were stating that I was doing garden grade stuff where my hundreds of hours should have been a few. Though, it wasn't fair for me to question what you did in the past, so I take it back.
I agree, we can drop this. As Dahbomb yelled at me in the past, we are all fans. Thanks for your appreciation BTW. It is difficult to put so many hours in to those videos on an old game and not want to quit.
Nah. True fans get at each others throats sometimes. I truthfully have a bit of pride in my efforts so I will get defensive.blackflag said:
It's all cool now.
BeautifulMemory
Member
At the end of the day, we will all play this game
At the end of another day, this shit will be better than ninja dog gaiden 3.
NT and Capcom are at least self-aware....Team Ninja just sounds oblivious
At the end of another day, this shit will be better than ninja dog gaiden 3.
NT and Capcom are at least self-aware....Team Ninja just sounds oblivious
Psymon_Stark
Member
This preview was made by a friend of mine...he's not a Capcom fan and he has played all the episodes of DMC.ezekial45 said:
He was super skeptical about this game before trying the demo at GamesCom. If he changed his mind, I'm starting to think that the game may be good, after all...
edit: I re-read my post and I edited it to make it clearer
I can see some vehement and passionate arguments in here. As someone who never played the series (I would love an HD collection dammit!), and isn't a fan of Ninja Theory's previous work, I'm interested in playing this.
It seems that the main argument (amongst many other things) is that DMC=combat and NT=terrible combat.
I know the gaming press can be a joke, but a lot of what's being written about the game has them serving as a middle man saying, "look, it's not as bad as everyone is making it out to be", and it seems to be true. The environments are stunning. It has colors! I like the music that adapts to how you're fighting. Perhaps after I play the originals I'll understand why this is such an abomination. But, as an outsider to the series, for whatever it's worth, it looks pretty cool to me.
It seems that the main argument (amongst many other things) is that DMC=combat and NT=terrible combat.
I know the gaming press can be a joke, but a lot of what's being written about the game has them serving as a middle man saying, "look, it's not as bad as everyone is making it out to be", and it seems to be true. The environments are stunning. It has colors! I like the music that adapts to how you're fighting. Perhaps after I play the originals I'll understand why this is such an abomination. But, as an outsider to the series, for whatever it's worth, it looks pretty cool to me.
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
gunbo13 said:
Yeah, no joke. He asked me if I could show him something on the importance of casual vs. core game design concepts.
Casual gamers, want "the animationzz" right? Core gamers want responsive controls. The player to do what they want him to do at the moment of input.
A lot of these DMC combo videos show poor animation (due to the absurd amount of cancels) but also show the level of "human" control they offer.
Effectively allowing fans to break the system. I don't think that all of the shit advanced players do in DMC, was thought out by the dev team.
So, I pointed the video out and he showed some of the guys he was working with.
I made a post here with my analysis but it got made into another thread. You guys should probably continue the discussion there now (as in non frame rate related discussion which is done to death anyway).
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=441662
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=441662
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
GuardianE said:
It kind of died out. And also, what we started to do, became grass roots. Everyone was putting together their own stuff and we soon found out that some of these people were doing better stuff than we were.
But really, Hand vs. Eye I think was all Gemasis. I did some DMC focused stuff, but he really expanded it to other games.
I actually see some of what Gunbo is doing and maybe somebody like that should continue the hand vs. eye concept. Awesome videos relating to 'mechanics' and skill oriented games. As you know, hand vs. eye wasn't restricted to DMC. I certainly would dig a website like. Or at least a youtube channel.
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
.
That's good to hear.
Psymon_Stark said:
That's good to hear.
Nora Kisaragi
Banned
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
BeautifulMemory said:
Team Ninja: We want the player to know how it feels to cut through human flesh, to rip through skin, muscle, and bone. To slice, with ninja like tact.
The World: So, you're going to have decapitations and cut limbs - like in Ninja Gaiden 2.
Team Ninja: No
The World: Huh?
Team Ninja: Huh, what?
The World: You just sai---
Team Ninja: Who?
BeautifulMemory
Member
For the record the new Dante absolutely disgusts me, personal opinion I knowlowhighkang_LHK said:
But why in the hell would Team Ninja fuck with flying swallow, Ryu's signature move? Ninja gaiden isn't exactly ninja-like, but if there's a move that made ryu a ninja, it's flying swallow
Ugh