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[Mash]

Didn't say that it was a stone cold study. I just said that it was a neat idea they were discussing on the discovery channel, but I think that the distinction they were making was that Humans are -not- connected in the same ways that tree, rocks, and animals are. those things don't have cognitive thought and thus a metaphysical (that might be the right term) act separates us from the rest of the world.

But you are correct though. It IS a wild speculative idea that really has no basis other than strange events that people have claimed to have had, but just for the sake of this topic I mentioned it.

Metaphysical is sort of the right term to use in that it's trying to figure out the true nature of human beings (study philosophy full time). But, it's quite a large leap to say human beings are "connected" in a unique way to the world. We have more complex brains, but that's it. Our sense organs are very average if not below average, we do not experience the world in any special way, we are just intelligent enough to reflect on our concepts formed by experience, which in turn, results in an imagination and therefore ghosts etc. All that separates our cognitive abilities from a chimps for example is we have more of the same going on, c-fibres and neurons getting busy. We are fundamentally not separated from the rest of the world and it's thinking like that that leads down dark alleys.

But, the theory is at least not as bat shit insane as animal spirits etc., at the very least it seems on some level falsifiable scientifically. I remember hearing one of these sorts of stories where a guy saw some Roman ghosts who were half buried in the ground because the ground level has apparently changed. So we have ghost mud aswell now.

 

[Dascu]

Dascu:

You know, if there are ghost or apparitions, then I'd say that there's a scientific explanation for them as well. And you don't have to throw in walking through walls, rattling chains and stuff there.

Yeah, I know. If there's ghosts, then there's a logical or scientifical explanation for them. I just don't like when people go all "ghosts are supernatural and outside the realm of human knowledge". Statements like that try to mystify something that could very well be a normal occurence in the universe. Who knows, maybe it's just some aliens pulling a big prank on us.

I have problems with the concept of ghosts as human souls though. I don't believe in the concept of souls. I think medical science would've noticed something indicating the presence of such a thing already, and I also don't understand how some souls would turn into ghosts while others (human or animal) don't. It seems too random for something as grand as the universe.

 

[NotWii]

I believe in ghosts, since my family has had a few supernatural encounters.
Anyone who says there's no evidence, please do some research.

 

[Aurvant]

Metaphysical is sort of the right term to use in that it's trying to figure out the true nature of human beings (study philosophy full time). But, it's quite a large leap to say human beings are "connected" in a unique way to the world. We have more complex brains, but that's it. Our sense organs are very average if not below average, we do not experience the world in any special way, we are just intelligent enough to reflect on our concepts formed by experience, which in turn, results in an imagination and therefore ghosts etc. All that separates our cognitive abilities from a chimps for example is we have more of the same going on, c-fibres and neurons getting busy. We are fundamentally not separated from the rest of the world and it's thinking like that that leads down dark alleys.

But, the theory is at least not as bat shit insane as animal spirits etc., at the very least it seems on some level falsifiable scientifically. I remember hearing one of these sorts of stories where a guy saw some Roman ghosts who were half buried in the ground because the ground level has apparently changed. So we have ghost mud aswell now.

I lol'd.

However, I don't think that humans and chimps have the same type of cognitive thought. At least I've never heard of a study where they went and tried to figure it out. I know that chimps have the ability to learn and problem solve, but then again....so do Cats. Still, I don't think that its possible for chimps or apes to properly enjoy or appreciate artistic value or find beauty the same way we do in music for example.

I think there are certain mysteries about the human complex that make things wondrous. Like...it has seemed from the very beginning of the records of mankind that we have always sought out the ability to advance technologically and spiritually (albeit some definition of spirituality are different than others). We've always sought to create progress whereas animals or our seemingly closely related cousins (teh non-human apes) could care less.

Not saying I want to venture down dark alleys or anything, but there are some wonderous things about humankind that separate us from the rest of the world in various ways.

 

[itsinmyveins]

Yeah, I know. If there's ghosts, then there's a logical or scientifical explanation for them. I just don't like when people go all "ghosts are supernatural and outside the realm of human knowledge". Statements like that try to mystify something that could very well be a normal occurence in the universe. Who knows, maybe it's just some aliens pulling a big prank on us.

I have problems with the concept of ghosts as human souls though. I don't believe in the concept of souls. I think medical science would've noticed something indicating the presence of such a thing already, and I also don't understand how some souls would turn into ghosts while others (human or animal) don't. It seems too random for something as grand as the universe.

At the same time, the mind -- soul, personality and all that, whatever you chose to call it -- is not that tangiable, is it? It's shaped by both genes and experiences, and you can't "see" experience fo instance. But I get what you're saying.

In such a grand place as the universe it might only seem random since we know so little, you know. I'm just saying

 

[dasein]

Metaphysical is sort of the right term to use in that it's trying to figure out the true nature of human beings (study philosophy full time). But, it's quite a large leap to say human beings are "connected" in a unique way to the world. We have more complex brains, but that's it. Our sense organs are very average if not below average, we do not experience the world in any special way, we are just intelligent enough to reflect on our concepts formed by experience, which in turn, results in an imagination and therefore ghosts etc. All that separates our cognitive abilities from a chimps for example is we have more of the same going on, c-fibres and neurons getting busy. We are fundamentally not separated from the rest of the world and it's thinking like that that leads down dark alleys.

Actually, rocks, trees, grass, etc., are not be-ing in the world. They are not Dasein like us. Only we can reflect in the fact that we are 'be-ing there'.

Do I believe in ghosts? Hmm. Probably not. However, I do believe that there is some phenomena, though I don't think there's any concrete way to determine it.

 

[Mash]

Not saying I want to venture down dark alleys or anything, but there are some wonderous things about humankind that separate us from the rest of the world in various ways.

No I agree, I don't mean to say humans aren't special, because we quite obviously are but we need to bear in mind we're made of the same stuff and work the same as loads of other things, we're just more complicated.

There was a study recently on chimps to see a difference in cognitive ability. The chimps were shown collections of marbles and they were intelligent enough to learn the numbers had some form of value, so that if they pointed to a 1 marble they would receive 9 pieces of fruit, and if they pointed to 9 marbles they would receive 1 piece of fruit etc, they were able to comprehend this. But, when they changed the marbles to actual pieces of fruit they couldn't help themselves, they would always point to the largest pile and only receive 1 piece of fruit. Obviously we can interpret this in different ways but it seems to suggest the unique thing about human ability is simply contemplating the future without being dictated by immediate desires. BUT again, there was another case where some cheeky monkeys were literally witnessed travelling distances and cooperating to ambush other troops, so they do in some way abstract from the immediate present.

Garble garble, but the point is we're just complex more-of-the-same. We are unique but we're not priveleged enough to persist after our brain stops working.

Actually, rocks, trees, grass, etc., are not be-ing in the world. They are not Dasein like us. Only we can reflect in the fact that we are 'be-ing there'.

Do I believe in ghosts? Hmm. Probably not. However, I do believe that there is some phenomena, though I don't think there's any concrete way to determine it.

Yeh I said that, only we can reflect on our concepts and self (existence being a concept) or as that article puts it "potentiality-for-being comes towards itself in its possibilities of being by going back to what has been; it always comes towards itself from out of a possibility of itself.". I like Heidegger in many ways but he and Derrida were such oscurantist's they can make anything sound interesting even "humans beings can think good".

 

[Aurvant]

Actually, rocks, trees, grass, etc., are not be-ing in the world. They are not Dasein like us. Only we can reflect in the fact that we are 'be-ing there'.

Do I believe in ghosts? Hmm. Probably not. However, I do believe that there is some phenomena, though I don't think there's any concrete way to determine it.

Dasein....such an interesting concept. I've never heard of it until today and your link is quite fascinating. It's kind of confusing the first time i read it but it sounds similar to the whole "I think therefore I am" concept.

Although I could be interpreting it wrong, so you'll have to explain it to me or something.

 

[itsinmyveins]

Still, I don't think that its possible for chimps or apes to properly enjoy or appreciate artistic value or find beauty the same way we do in music for example.

But you do not appreciate music in the same way as a chimp does either, do you?

 

[Anerythristic]

Ghosts, yeah, why not. They make life more interesting don't they? I worry, they can watch you during personal things like going to the bathroom, showering, pleasuring yourself/having sex...fucking pervert ghosts!

 

[Aurvant]

But you do not appreciate music in the same way as a chimp does either, do you?

Eh, but I don't believe that a chimp has the ability to appreciate anything. Unless you call flinging fecal matter as "criticism" I just don't think they have the MIND POWAH to perceive anything as beautiful or ugly or whatever.

 

[fasts2k]

I like watching Ghost Hunters and other ghost/supernatural type shows.

But, I noticed that whenever a place is haunted it is usually cause someone died there or some traumatic experience happened there.

In the entire course of human history hasnt someone died almost everywhere. So there should be alot of places that are haunted.

I am sure not every dead person comes back as a ghost/spirit but there have been a lot of dead people over these thousands of years.

Also, why are most ghost soldiers or from more recent times?

Where are the caveman or early human ghosts? I am sure they died in traumatic ways, like being eaten by sabretooth cats, or even by being beaten by another human.

What about animals? Are there animal ghosts?

 

[Souldriver]

Care to give an example?

As for me personally; don't know really. Maybe I don't believe in them, but I do fear them :lol

Well, this is a pretty stupid one, but not long ago my friend was completely freaking out how her radio would turn off constantly. Off course she had just seen a spooky movie, so everything you'd normally wouldn't even notice or just say "stupid thing" became OMG WAT TE HELL!! It wasn't until after I explained and tested that her radio was set to go off after every hour, that she was able to sleep again. It also was the first time she mentioned there were noises on the roof (she sleeps just below the roof and it was very windy outside). I'm sure she has heard noises on the roof before (it's not like it storms only once in a decade) yet this was the first time she noticed and was affraid of it.

It just shows how people's minds can play tricks on them.

 

[itsinmyveins]

Eh, but I don't believe that a chimp has the ability to appreciate anything. Unless you call flinging fecal matter as "criticism" I just don't think they have the MIND POWAH to perceive anything as beautiful or ugly or whatever.

To some extent I think they do, but I guess this might be about definitions though. They laugh and they play and obviously appreciate companionship to some degree. So, within their limits they might be able to?

 

[bionic77]

My 22-year old friend went to Williamsburg, VA with his family 2 summers back. His family ended up staying at one of the older hotels in town---one which provided him with quite a story when he returned home.

He really didn't think about the fact that his hotel was old, or the fact the colonial cities are creepy. He was impressed by the niceness of the hotel---it was quaint and furnished very nicely in a country home styling. He hardly takes vacations, or leaves NYC. Virginia was a fun and new experience for him.

His story goes as follows:

My friend was sharing a room with his older brother, who was sleeping comfortably across the room. In the middle of the night, he randomly woke up to be greeted by a blurry man reaching to choke him. He started yelling, and his brother leaped up to save him from whatever was happening.

His brother jumped on top of the bed, and started waling fists. After about 20 seconds, my friend yelled "stop hitting me goddamnit!" because his brother just kept pounding on his face.

The next morning, the two brothers told their dad what had happened the previous night. The front desk at the hotel was informed of the tale, and were more than excited about it. It was then that my friend found out that his hotel is famous for its ghostly occurrences.

Other people staying at the hotel came to him for the rest of the morning like he was a king. "Tell me exactly what happened!".

He came back to NYC really shaken.

Wow, a relative of mine told a story that was eerily similar to yours. His story also involved some ghost trying to choke someone he was sharing a room with. And the room they were sleeping in apparently had some history of ghosts or whatever.

I never really believed him (hard to believe something like that without seeing it yourself), but weird that you know someone else who had a similar occurrence.

 

[Aurvant]

To some extent I think they do, but I guess this might be about definitions though. They laugh and they play and obviously appreciate companionship to some degree. So, within their limits they might be able to?

Perhaps, but so do cats and dogs to some degree. Cats play and romp with each other, show affection and companionship towards their mates, they can learn to open doors and can respond to audio cues.

Dogs wag their tales and exhibit behaviors that show they are happy and pleased or comfortable.

All animals exhibit these behaviors in a limited sense, but no other species but man has exhibited the type of love and appreciation for certain things, but its also not our appreciations and positive reactions that separate us, but our negative attitudes and feelings as well.

I mean...aren't we the only being on the planet that can be surrounded by hundreds of our kind yet feel completely isolated and alone? Are we not unique in the fact that we are actually able to resist outside stimulus to have a reaction of our own choosing?

I may be stretching here, but thats just what I observe.

 

[speculawyer]

No.

 

[demigod]

It also was the first time she mentioned there were noises on the roof (she sleeps just below the roof and it was very windy outside). I'm sure she has heard noises on the roof before (it's not like it storms only once in a decade) yet this was the first time she noticed and was affraid of it.

It just shows how people's minds can play tricks on them.

Lol, one of my friend's told me that old ladies like to stomp on the roof.

 

[rezuth]

I used to belive in it when I was younger and I still recall how fucked up I got after watching the blair witch project. Don't think I went outside my room OR sleept without my lights on for months.

 

[itsinmyveins]

I mean...aren't we the only being on the planet that can be surrounded by hundreds of our kind yet feel completely isolated and alone?

I don't know since I don't speak chimpanzee :/

But I assume that since their lives differ very much from ours it's kind of strange to compare in that way. My priorities would definitely be different if I lived in the woods with a tribe and had to hunt for food or something.

And then, of course, we are different in many ways from animals.

Are we not unique in the fact that we are actually able to resist outside stimulus to have a reaction of our own choosing?

I may be stretching here, but thats just what I observe.

I'm not sure I follow you here though.. What do you mean with outside stimulus and "reaction" of our own choosing?

 

[hadareud]

Anyone who says there's no evidence, please do some research.

could you point me in the direction of some evidence? Would be interesting.

 

[WickedLaharl]

nope. there is no proof that they exist save for people saying "i've seen one BELIEVE ME!". and some bullshit videos.

 

[Souldriver]

I believe in ghosts, since my family has had a few supernatural encounters.
Anyone who says there's no evidence, please do some research.

Really?
Until all the major news networks are reporting about the evidence, scientists are holding meetings about this unbelievable break through, science magazines are giving out extra editions explaining the whole phenomena to the people, everybody in the world is talking about it.....until then, no there is no evidence.

Just think about this for a second. If there was real evidence of ghosts (or any other of those "I want to believe" phenomenas), you'd think they'd make a big deal out of it...

 

[Cymbal Head]

Wow, a relative of mine told a story that was eerily similar to yours. His story also involved some ghost trying to choke someone he was sharing a room with. And the room they were sleeping in apparently had some history of ghosts or whatever.

I never really believed him (hard to believe something like that without seeing it yourself), but weird that you know someone else who had a similar occurrence.

Sounds to me like the people being "attacked" just had a bout of sleep paralysis and got freaked out. Shit can be scary.


Edit: I'd also like to propose to the folks having the conversation about how/if/why humans are different "from animals" that humans are animals. The only thing that makes us different is our huge honkin brain.

 

[kozmo7]

Not ghosts in the literal sense per say but there are too many unexplainable events that have happened to me and others to dis-acknowledge some form of a supernatural being.

I am sort of on the fence with the idea that very tragic events and emotions are burnt into the area. What we might be seeing is just a past event repeating itself. They do say that time is just an illusion after all. Who knows? But I feel to completely disregard that there are unexplainables out there flat out is naive.

 

[Cymbal Head]

Not ghosts in the literal sense per say but there are too many unexplainable events that have happened to me and others to dis-acknowledge some form of a supernatural being.

I am sort of on the fence with the idea that very tragic events and emotions are burnt into the area. What we might be seeing is just a past event repeating itself. They do say that time is just an illusion after all. Who knows? But I feel to completely disregard that there are unexplainables out there flat out is naive.

Who are 'they'?

 

[Oni Jazar]

Sometimes in the middle of the night, my televeision would turn on by itself and the volume would be on full blast. Freaked the hell out of me.



What it ghosts? Hell no, it was a bug in the motherboard for my Sharp Aquos LC32D4U that's documented on the AVS forums. A firmware upgrade later and it was gone. :lol

So, no, I do not believe in ghosts. I do love a good haunted house movie though.

 

[Aurvant]

Who are 'they'?

Gnomes. The timeless bastards

 

[StriKeVillain]

I'm not Latin American (From the Caribbean) but I've got a couple of good stories from family members.

Now, Hispanics in general have a strong eye for ghosts/apparitions. My cousin actually sees ghosts on a daily basis. Now this also has to do with Hispanics strong sense of religion which I won't go into. Anyway, here we go:

When my grandfather was a boy in Puerto Rico many years ago he was walking home from school alone. It was dusk outside and was beginning to get dark. He had about a mile to walk from the school and when he was about halfway home he would always come to a 4 way crossroad. Usually no one would pass by but today was different. As he approached the crossroad he saw four horses. Horses are pretty normal to see everyday in PR and so he kept approaching. As he walked up he noticed something in the center of the four horses. It was a coffin. The horses were lined with each corner of the coffin so he could see the center of it. The coffin rested on nothing. It just floated in the center of the four horses. The coffin also had 4 candles on each of its corners. As he noticed it, the horses saw him and just trotted in front of him and went west if he was going north.

A more recent one:

My Aunt is very keen to the supernatural. A lot of times she can recognize them on the street during the day. Anyway, a couple of years ago when my youngest cousin was around 2 years old her and my uncle were sleeping and my little cousin was asleep in his crib in the same room. It was around 2 in the morning and they had given my cousin an old toy from a friend. It was a stuffed Disney animal. The Disney toy made noise too when you squished it. So in the middle of the night she starts to hear the noise that the toy makes. It goes on and on and on and she's just laying there thinking it's her son. She finally sits up in bed to see what is going on and when she does she sees her son standing in his crib just staring at her. Now she knows something is wrong, her son lays down in his crib and all she hears is a deep, unnatural laugh come from my cousin. Something that could not have come from a child. She immediately got out of bed and threw the toy into the garbage.

I have more but I'm tired of typing.

 

[Deleted member 10571]

It's not so much ghosts as it is unspeakable horrors, but here's a site about what some guy found while trying to drill into a new part of a cave he was spelunking in

http://www.angelfire.com/trek/caver/

It's a "real" life experience, so take it as entertaining as it is.

You might also want to reconsider reading this before for bed, as that mistake cost me an entire night's sleep.

This was great with an extreme Lovecraft-ic touch in there. The ending was a bit disappointing, but a really nice-to-read story overall.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

I don't believe in ghosts either, but I have a question. Is it possible to construct a real proton pack, because that would be really cool to have and fire one.

 

[disco]

it's like that joke that loud gobby woman did at the mtv awards about paris hilton in jail

 

[Redd]

Well only in the in the afternoon or the later parts of the morning. Besides that definetly not.

 

[therapist]

No one will ever beleive unless they see it themselves.

Some people will dismiss it or chalk it up to something else.

Ive seen shit that is impossible to explain, like me sitting on my bed playing hot shots golf , and all of a sudden the end of my bed goes down real low , as if something over 200 pounds sat on the edge of my bed , stayed for about 2 minutes then it just went away , and it wasnt my imagination cuz i practically fell off my bed.

Theres more but this shit wont convince anyone , like i said , you need to experience something yourself.

 

[Haly]

Not in the same way that some people believe in "ghosts" but yes, I do.

 

[StriKeVillain]

No one will ever beleive unless they see it themselves.

Some people will dismiss it or chalk it up to something else.

Ive seen shit that is impossible to explain, like me sitting on my bed playing hot shots golf , and all of a sudden the end of my bed goes down real low , as if something over 200 pounds sat on the edge of my bed , stayed for about 2 minutes then it just went away , and it wasnt my imagination cuz i practically fell off my bed.

Theres more but this shit wont convince anyone , like i said , you need to experience something yourself.

Exactly. There are things on this earth that are impossible to explain. It's not just seeing things in the dark or your mind is playing tricks on you, you'll know when something is there. They give off a very distinctive feeling, you've never felt something like that before.

 

[Norml]

When you die your brain dies so ghosts are impossible,smart ones anyway.

 

[NinjaFridge]

I believe in aliens, but am agnostic about ghosts. Ghosts on earth? Unlikely. Alien ghosts? WHO KNOWS.

Thetan?

nope. there is no proof that they exist save for people saying "i've seen one BELIEVE ME!". and some bullshit videos.

What proof do you want? We may not have the technology and the methods to prove that they exist now but what about in the future. It doesn't hurt to be open minded you know.

 

[perryfarrell]

Of course not.

 

[Justin Bailey]

Nope, but I enjoy the stories.

 

[Tinabina]

i do and i am terribly afraid of it, even reading the title of this thread i will have trouble falling asleep tonight...its bad

 

[Alien Bob]

i do and i am terribly afraid of it, even reading the title of this thread i will have trouble falling asleep tonight...its bad

I'll summon some spirits to go your way and hold you while you sleep, or some djinns!

 

[Jill Sandwich]

Oh. What I wouldn't give for a drag....just ONE drag.

DAMN woman! What you done with your hair?!

You like it? It's 'Autumn Sunrise'!

 

[Tinabina]

I'll summon some spirits to go your way and hold you while you sleep, or some djinns!

im not sure if this is good or bad....im thinking bad

 

[Mash]

Exactly. There are things on this earth that are impossible to explain. It's not just seeing things in the dark or your mind is playing tricks on you, you'll know when something is there. They give off a very distinctive feeling, you've never felt something like that before.

Yeh I got that feeling when I saw my "ghost" which I have to say is probably one of the most direct experiences reported in this thread. I still stand that our minds are surprisingly fickle and when we're nervous and hypersensitive we interpret everything differently. The problem is people being disposed to interpret things in certain ways. Like that guy above's bed going down. No I don't have an outright explanation but it's no surprise that a human would describe the phenomena as if it was a human causing it.

 

[XxenobladerxX]

It's not so much ghosts as it is unspeakable horrors, but here's a site about what some guy found while trying to drill into a new part of a cave he was spelunking in

http://www.angelfire.com/trek/caver/

It's a "real" life experience, so take it as entertaining as it is.

You might also want to reconsider reading this before for bed, as that mistake cost me an entire night's sleep.

Not to sound lazy,but could you give me a short version of the story?

 

[bigmit3737]

What if Ghosts on earth pretend to be aliens, and they in fact are one and the same?

:lol

That's interesting.

That god it's daytime.

 

[bigmit3737]

Exactly. There are things on this earth that are impossible to explain. It's not just seeing things in the dark or your mind is playing tricks on you, you'll know when something is there. They give off a very distinctive feeling, you've never felt something like that before.

Well we we are bounded by our perception. We can't see a lot of things.

Don't animals have a 6th sense about these things?
Like dogs barking or cats staring at something, that doesn't seem to be there.

 

[bigmit3737]

Sometimes in the middle of the night, my televeision would turn on by itself and the volume would be on full blast. Freaked the hell out of me.



What it ghosts? Hell no, it was a bug in the motherboard for my Sharp Aquos LC32D4U that's documented on the AVS forums. A firmware upgrade later and it was gone. :lol

So, no, I do not believe in ghosts. I do love a good haunted house movie though.

What if your TV was unplugged? Would that freak you out?

 

[beelzebozo]

those of you who think you've seen a ghost should listen to this episode of the "point of inquiry" podcast.

the first segment is an interview with daniel dennett, but the third segment is an interview with "ghost hunter" joe nickell about effective investigating methods, and the mistakes people often make when thinking they've seen a ghost.