That's still entirely subjective. If you can't measure it, it's not objective. Different people like different controls and mechanics, it's not like there's a one size fits all, or every game would follow suit.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Does a game with bad story but perfect gameplay deserve 10/10 Reviews?
- Thread starter Arnie7
- Start date
That's still entirely subjective. If you can't measure it, it's not objective. Different people like different controls and mechanics, it's not like there's a one size fits all, or every game would follow suit.
UnluckyKate
Member
A game with perfect game play can be a 10.
While a game with perfect game play and good can become a cult classic.
While a game with perfect game play and good can become a cult classic.
Stilton Disco
Member
I've always been of te opinion a 10/10 score should represent a game that is achieving the highest standards for whatever type of game it's setting out to be, so if it's not setting out to tell a story, then that shouldn't be held against it as a negative, though should be made clear in the meat of the review itself.
I mean I've played Mario games that are flawless in everything they set out to do gamplay and level design wise, but have the amateurish, gods awful writing and narrative skill of a very simple child that's been kept awake for 72 hours straight, and conversely, beautiful, emotionally resonant Visual Novels that barely required more than a single button press every few minutes. Both would get solid 10's from me, but have polar opposite strengths and weaknesses.
I mean I've played Mario games that are flawless in everything they set out to do gamplay and level design wise, but have the amateurish, gods awful writing and narrative skill of a very simple child that's been kept awake for 72 hours straight, and conversely, beautiful, emotionally resonant Visual Novels that barely required more than a single button press every few minutes. Both would get solid 10's from me, but have polar opposite strengths and weaknesses.
This is a weird question because what defines "10/10" and "perfect gameplay" is entirely subjective, so is "bad story", but I guess that's a little more agreed upon. Perfect is something unachievable anyway.
I would say that rating something out of 10 is a flawed way to review and game players tend to, annoyingly, focus on the numbers and not actually the content of the review. I mean, I do it too sometime.
It depends strongly. If the game attempts to have a story, but it fails in many ways, even if the gameplay is good, that's a clear failure of the game. It is brought down as a whole piece because one or more of the elements fails, even if there is one or more particular elements (in this case gameplay) that succeeds. In my opinion the ideal game would have large overlap between the story and the gameplay, which would mean that both have too be good.
But let's differentiate a bad story, from a non-story, like Super Mario Galaxy. I wouldn't call the story of Galaxy good, but I wouldn't describe it as bad, either. It does exactly as it intends to do. It provides some context for your action, it gives you a motivation and goal. It doesn't do this in a complex or necessarily engaging way, but it doesn't intend to. The Mario platformers tend not need a complex story as they are detached from reality in many ways, compare that with Super Mario Sunshine, which exists in a somewhat more real setting and somewhat attempts to have more of a unique story, but mostly fails to go anywhere with it, that does bring the game down.
I would say that rating something out of 10 is a flawed way to review and game players tend to, annoyingly, focus on the numbers and not actually the content of the review. I mean, I do it too sometime.
It depends strongly. If the game attempts to have a story, but it fails in many ways, even if the gameplay is good, that's a clear failure of the game. It is brought down as a whole piece because one or more of the elements fails, even if there is one or more particular elements (in this case gameplay) that succeeds. In my opinion the ideal game would have large overlap between the story and the gameplay, which would mean that both have too be good.
But let's differentiate a bad story, from a non-story, like Super Mario Galaxy. I wouldn't call the story of Galaxy good, but I wouldn't describe it as bad, either. It does exactly as it intends to do. It provides some context for your action, it gives you a motivation and goal. It doesn't do this in a complex or necessarily engaging way, but it doesn't intend to. The Mario platformers tend not need a complex story as they are detached from reality in many ways, compare that with Super Mario Sunshine, which exists in a somewhat more real setting and somewhat attempts to have more of a unique story, but mostly fails to go anywhere with it, that does bring the game down.
entremet
Member
I love narrative games, but this overt focus on them as the pinnacle of gaming has been rubbing me the wrong way. There are many types of games and that's fine.
That said, I doubt we will get consensus GOTY winners from games that don't have narrative focuses going forward. The Western games media has hitched their wagon on those.
That said, I doubt we will get consensus GOTY winners from games that don't have narrative focuses going forward. The Western games media has hitched their wagon on those.
Story is bottom of the list for me. I love Ratchet as a game but the cutscenes are just painful, I'm just skipping them now. But that wouldn't affect the score I give it at all. Same could be said for Bayonetta.
That said, I hate cutscenes longer than 10 seconds. I prefer games that integrate the story fully in to the gameplay and rarely draw you out of the game.
A story is obviously more important in an adventure game (eg Monkey Island) or RPG.
That said, I hate cutscenes longer than 10 seconds. I prefer games that integrate the story fully in to the gameplay and rarely draw you out of the game.
A story is obviously more important in an adventure game (eg Monkey Island) or RPG.
Nope.
toddhunter
Member
Anybody who argues that a perfect racing game can't be a 10/10 because it doesn't have a story is not making a strong argument.
It depends on the reviewer's criteria. For me, yes - a game with fantastic gameplay can earn a 10/10. One without fantastic gameplay cannot.
Mind you, gameplay mechanics aren't the only consideration. Metroid Prime, my favourite game for example, combines perfected gameplay mechanics with an amazing engine, art design and atmosphere. If it lacked one of those things I'm not sure it'd be my favourite anymore.
Mind you, gameplay mechanics aren't the only consideration. Metroid Prime, my favourite game for example, combines perfected gameplay mechanics with an amazing engine, art design and atmosphere. If it lacked one of those things I'm not sure it'd be my favourite anymore.
PastorOfMuppets
Banned
At the same time it would be pretty cool of a developer attempted to do a Days of Thunder treatment for a racing game.
The intro could be you driving in the final lap of the Indy 500. You're in the lead when suddenly, Evil Driver bumps you into the railing and you end of breaking your legs in a horrific crash. The rest of the game has you trying to prove your doubters wrong by working your way up the NASCAR ranks again. In the meantime you maintain a budding relationship with your physical therapist in a Mass Effect style dialogue system and QTE interrupt segments.
Bam, there you go NASCAR Racing 2017 developed by the iRacing guys and a story written by Chris Avellone.
Yes. I don't believe that any game is perfect. Everything can be improved. That's just reality. Does that make games bad? Of course not. Bloodborne, Witcher 3, whatever. They're freaking amazing games. But there are things that I look at and say "hey, maybe that could have been done better". And that's okay.
Games that don't include a story can be amazing games and should be able to score high. But if developers choose to include something that's barely coherent, then it should be taken into account.
eXistor
Member
As always it's context. If a developer decides to let the gameplay do the talking then story has literally zero impact on the final score seeing as it's not an integral part of the design (Mario platformers for example). If a developer decides to tell a story alonside the gameplay then it becomes just as much a part of the game as gameplay and a bad story becomes detrimental to the overall game (Uncharted 4 for example).
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
Tetris doesn't have a bad story. It doesn't have one.
JimmyRustler
Gold Member
Usually I'd say no. Some might call me weird but I'll rather overlook some flaws in the gameplay if the story is good than the other way around - which is the reason I have not been able to play a single Zelda after WW.
It's a grey area. Not all games need a story to be perfect. It's the gameplay that makes the game for me. For example, Xenoblade was a game that was bighly acclaimed for its story. Though as the game dragged on, I would be playing the game for the story and not the game. A game needs you to want to play it for the fun of the game. If you're doing it soley for thr story, then it's not a good 'game'.
Langdon Alger
Banned
Yes. Depending on the genre, I don't think a game's story matters much.
SerTapTap
Member
I would say it mostly depends on if it's no story vs a lot of really bad story. Like Mario 1's story basically isn't there. If it's like, FFX-2 then yeah, the large amount of bad story definitely starts to downgrade it. Even worse if you can't skip it or I'd skipping it makes the game hard to complete (because you don't know where to go).
Basically games don't even need story (games can be anything) but if story is a major part and it sucks that's a problem. And it's a problem that's sometimes best solved by simply removing most of it.
Basically games don't even need story (games can be anything) but if story is a major part and it sucks that's a problem. And it's a problem that's sometimes best solved by simply removing most of it.
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
I think some are defining "bad story" as the absence on an ingredient (the lack of a good story), while others define "bad story" as the addition of a bad ingredient. And on that distinction alone you can have completely different answers.
So it would translate as the same question as:
" do you think you can make a game better by removing a bad story?"
while to others it means
" can a story mean so little that even if it was terrible it would make no difference from it not existing?"
So it would translate as the same question as:
" do you think you can make a game better by removing a bad story?"
while to others it means
" can a story mean so little that even if it was terrible it would make no difference from it not existing?"
That just totally depends on the game. If a game just puts no emphasis on the story, like the Mario Jump'n'Runs do or stuff like Overwatch, the story just isn't that important. On the other hand you have the Telltale games or other story heavy games that have like no gameplay, so there the gameplay just isn't as important for a score. It becomes important when they actually want to tell a story, but it's just bad. Or they have interesting gameplay ideas, but they simply don't work out. Those games imo don't deserve a 10/10, no matter how good the other part is.
But if the other part is basically non existant? Sure, why not. 10/10 all the way if it really is that good.
But if the other part is basically non existant? Sure, why not. 10/10 all the way if it really is that good.
The Artisan
Member
Racing games usually make up for the lack of a story by having something like a career campaign mode though.
The Artisan
Member
exactly. how important is a game's story to you
toddhunter
Member
So should uncharted 4 not be 10/10 because it does not (presumably) include a career campaign mode?
Of course not. This whole notion is a bit silly.
Chû Totoro
Member
Not everyone perceives the same thing to be essential in a game (and even for the same person, depending on genres or other criteria it can change).
So for me story is most of the time not important but it can get more importance in some games. It's never the most important thing for me though.
So for me story is most of the time not important but it can get more importance in some games. It's never the most important thing for me though.
ManUnkindH
Member
of course it does, lots of examples coming from Mario series, Donkey Kong, Castlevania, Vanquish, etc. Gameplay over story any day of the week for me.
Zeouterlimits
Member
A game is worth whatever a reviewer feels it is worth?
Somethings matter more to people than others? A 10 for me could easily not be a 10 for you.
Am I missing the point slightly?
Somethings matter more to people than others? A 10 for me could easily not be a 10 for you.
Am I missing the point slightly?
Simbabbad
Member
In a lot of games not to say most if you consider the whole history of video games, story is completely irrelevant. In that case it doesn't matter and docking points would be absurd.
In a game like say, Silent Hill, if the gameplay is good but the story is bad, then it's an issue because that sort of game stand on the story, the gameplay is there to support the narrative.
This all seems pretty obvious.
In a game like say, Silent Hill, if the gameplay is good but the story is bad, then it's an issue because that sort of game stand on the story, the gameplay is there to support the narrative.
This all seems pretty obvious.
The Artisan
Member
the fuck are you talking about? i said a racing game makes up for single player content by having a career campaign mode. what does that have to do with games that typically have story campaigns? you're the one being silly
EDIT: my bad, that was a little harsh. but, I stand by my point.
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
Yes, games aren't movies or books.
Devs who think story is king in games usually come from the movie industry or want to be in the movie industry, from my experience.
Devs who think story is king in games usually come from the movie industry or want to be in the movie industry, from my experience.
OrbitalBeard
Member
No, it doesn't.
MightyKAC
Member
Of course not and nor should it be.
If we were talking about rating someone's subjective experience with something that's one thing.
Maybe then there would be elements to it that would make up for the bad story but despite that the reviewer still had fun reviewing the title.
But subjective experiences are NOT what reviews are meant for.
If you can forgive a crappy element of a game then that good for you but what about those who might find it important?
Would it be a 10 to them?
Being a reviewer means you have to look at it from those different angles.
And if a game is lacking in one place but excelling in another then it should in NO WAY be rated as high or higher than another game which is good at all or even most things.
Game reviews are useless if they lose that kind of objectivity.
And of course this is subjective as many folks have said since some elements in some genres matter less than in others, but in the end if an element is important enough to put in a game (be it story or graphics or gameplay or whatever) then it's important enough to get it right.
Otherwise it shouldn't be a 10/10 on ANYONE'S scale.
If we were talking about rating someone's subjective experience with something that's one thing.
Maybe then there would be elements to it that would make up for the bad story but despite that the reviewer still had fun reviewing the title.
But subjective experiences are NOT what reviews are meant for.
If you can forgive a crappy element of a game then that good for you but what about those who might find it important?
Would it be a 10 to them?
Being a reviewer means you have to look at it from those different angles.
And if a game is lacking in one place but excelling in another then it should in NO WAY be rated as high or higher than another game which is good at all or even most things.
Game reviews are useless if they lose that kind of objectivity.
And of course this is subjective as many folks have said since some elements in some genres matter less than in others, but in the end if an element is important enough to put in a game (be it story or graphics or gameplay or whatever) then it's important enough to get it right.
Otherwise it shouldn't be a 10/10 on ANYONE'S scale.
The Artisan
Member
i had a professor in college who intentionally never gave 100/100 on essay questions on the exams. her logic was,
"even if you get an A-equivalent score on the exam, there is never a perfect essay. so i will always take a point off for that even if it is an A-worthy essay."
GregLombardi
Member
I think if a game captures the attention of an incredible number of people, for whatever the reason, and they can't pull away -- if that's gameplay, or an excellent story, then the game can be scored accordingly.
I thought the gameplay in Last of Us was not nearly as great as its story. In fact, I thought it was significantly flawed. I wouldn't give it a 10 but I wanted to see what happened, and it held my attention. Very few games do that these days.
I would say gameplay warrants a 10 far more than story, but both can happen.
I thought the gameplay in Last of Us was not nearly as great as its story. In fact, I thought it was significantly flawed. I wouldn't give it a 10 but I wanted to see what happened, and it held my attention. Very few games do that these days.
I would say gameplay warrants a 10 far more than story, but both can happen.
Sheriff_Battlesnake
Banned
Oh, the classic "I don't get the appeal" that means bad story. Saying that MGS2 is one of the best examples of games as art is not a stretch. It is Post-Modernism to the bone, and it often recognized for it.
Art has always been divisive, that's why when you see a urinal as an art piece and say it has no business being there will get you dirty stares.
I'm not condescending, just saying it isn't what floats your boat and that's okay, but there really is brilliance in there. Maybe not around every corner, but it's there.
Yes, it does.
10/10. 100%. The best. 1.0. Literally no room to improve and get a higher rating.
The Artisan
Member
as I was saying with my professor example, it really depends on the person reviewing.
angry joe has gone on record several times when he's given his 10/10s saying "does a 10/10 mean it is a perfect game? no. it just means it is a masterpiece"
The Artisan
Member
but if it is supposed to be subjective who are you to say otherwise? unless you look at the review and they say some shit that is just nonsensical
but that game doesn't have a good story or good gameplay
deadscreensky
Member
Depends entirely on how prominent the bad story is. If it's hidden in a .txt file somewhere, no big deal. If there's extensive cutscenes and lots of voice narration, then yes, that should count against it.
Take a game like Shinobi 3, for example. Fantastic gameplay. The story is pretty plain and probably doesn't even make any sense if you try to put it together, but what's in the game is so sparse and stylish that it doesn't take away from the experience at all. It's shallow and cliché but it's not a negative.
I know this penalizes ambition, but if you include crap in your game then hey, you just made your game crappier. If it's any consolation I would generally rate a narrative-less game lower in the first place -- humans are inherent storytellers, having to turn off big parts of our brains can make any experience kind of boring.
Take a game like Shinobi 3, for example. Fantastic gameplay. The story is pretty plain and probably doesn't even make any sense if you try to put it together, but what's in the game is so sparse and stylish that it doesn't take away from the experience at all. It's shallow and cliché but it's not a negative.
I know this penalizes ambition, but if you include crap in your game then hey, you just made your game crappier. If it's any consolation I would generally rate a narrative-less game lower in the first place -- humans are inherent storytellers, having to turn off big parts of our brains can make any experience kind of boring.