Support NeoGAF

[TheAssist]

So I just got this new armor. Lets see...+5 defense, - 3 agility, - 20 Hp... ehm ok I guess. Is that less green than red? What does agility actually do? Oh less cooldown on abilities. I see. Oh and it has a transitive functional dependency, since it also improves evasion%. Soooooo, what exactly does +5 defense mean then... How much less damage do I recieve vs how much more dps can I do with a given build since my cooldowns are shorter, but how much more dmg do I take by getting hit slightly more often on average... uhmmm. I. Just. Don't. Know.

How am I supposed to make an educated decision as a player, when the stat systems are so damn complicated. And this is an easy example, not taking other stats in consideration, not differentiating between different kinds of damage (magic, physical, ranged, elemental, etc.). I'm not even thinking about how the enemies stats influence this at all.

It's not like there arent easy to understand stat systems where enemies do a fixed amount of damage and armor reduces that amount by the number it shows. So enemy does base 10 damage. 5 armor reduces it by 5 points. Easy. You can still have magic damage, elemental weaknesses, etc. but its much more readable for the player.

Oh and dont get me started on scales from 0 to 255. Why do I have to get out my calculator every time I get new equipment. Also it doesn't scale linearly, but somewhat exponentially. You just don't know to what base or exponent. Everyone who has played FFX and has broken damage limit might know that feeling.
Even games like Pokémon need freaking online calculators, so people know what stats are good. And its a game mainly aimed at kids.

Currently I'm playing FF16 and I got this accessory that gives you +30 defense. I got this like 10 hours of playtime ago, so I figure it must be outdated by now. But +30 defense seems so high, maybe its actually good? I dont know, since I dont know how damage is calculated and the game is so fast paced that you cant even see the amount of damage you are receiving.

So what I am saying is: If you have a stat system in your game, be sure to make it very clear to the player what each stat does, and how equipment changes the amount of damage received or dealt (especially if you have dependencies like agility improves evasion, instead of having an evasion stat and also for esoteric stats like speech and luck) , so I can make an educated decision on what equipment fits my playstyle.

 

[Drizzlehell]

They allow you to kick ass more effectively.

 

[Little Mac]

Tell me you play Diablo 4 without telling me you play Diablo 4.

 

[Gandih42]

I think RPG stats should be seen more as a way to package complicated statistical changes to your character in simple numbers using lore/setting appropriate text flavor. This is complete guesswork but I'd imagine that it can get tricky having a 'simple' stat progression when balancing the game. Hence non-linear scaling, diminishing effects, hard and soft caps, etc.

That being said, there are definitely good and bad implementations of stats. For me there are two main offenders. The first one being inappropriate use of minor stat increases, which is something I feel FFXVI suffers from. It doesn't affect my love for the game much because I don't feel like the game really needs itemisation. But in an action game I don't think having minor % damage increases or minor cooldown reductions adds anything. Items should alter your and diversify playstyles (the Berserker accessories is one of the few that is really fun).

The second is 'over-designed stats'. Even though I really like Diablo 3, I felt it had this problem. The primary stats felt too designed and tailored for each class and specific applications. And there were too many specifically designed secondary stats for specific purposes. It kind of sanded down any rough edges that would, to me, make combat and builds more fun. And more critically, it reduced the need and joy of experimentation. Grim Dawn, Titan Quest, Diablo 1/2 did stats much better with much less, in my opinion.

I think I got off topic, but as long as stats are appropriately used I don't think it is a problem if they are obfuscating. It is the point, to a certain extent, giving a flavourful interpretation of character progression so you don't just see spreadsheets matrix style when playing a game. Or at least it delays the feeling of the RPG turning into just numbers and serves to retain immersion in what is just a numbers game.

 

[Kikorin]

I usually use the approach "more is better", and if I've to choose to buff something, I always choose "Atk". I play rpg since the PS1 era and always worked fine.

 

[GymWolf]

Good rpgs have explanation for every single stat.

 

[Roni]

Understanding how an RPG works requires a lot of reading. Be it a tabletop RPG or a video game.

 

[Skifi28]

I just wear what looks cool, stats are for the weak.

 

[kiphalfton]

Probably doesn't do anything honestly, and is just superficial, if you're a lazy dev.

*cough* Ubisoft *cough*

 

[Tams]

Change the probabilities.

/Thread

 

[Mephisto40]

Green is good

 

[Guilty_AI]

Now i want to try making the most obscure and convoluted stat system possible

 

[Kakax11]

Numbers go up and others go down, algebra shit

 

[killatopak]

old school mmorpgs don't explain this because you're supposed to find it yourself. It's the community aspect that makes it exciting. That and no stat resets either so every point counts. It's why every build is exciting because you don't exactly know the potential of it until you milk it dry yourself. Now it's all meta gaming and everyone does the same exact build with the same exact items. The only thing left to personalize your characters nowadays is glamour or transmog.

 

[Shut0wen]

Not even gunna lie, i started playing xenoblade chronicles 3, havnt played the series since torna released and yeah i had to google what the stats did as well, especially when you have something called ether defence lmao

 

[STARSBarry]

I mean it literally depends on the game and how these effect your character.

For example Strength is universally going to be seen as increasing damage with physical attacks, but some games they can extend to ranged weapons too, but in others that's part of dexterity.

Dexterity often relates to critical strike chance and/or damage, but can also in some games increase dodge chance or damage for ranged weapons and specific types of melee weapons like daggers.

It depends on the game but essentially after awhile you understand the "theme" that each stat changes. But it's up to you on a per game basis to figure it all out if you care enough about it.

 

[Jadsey]

Maybe RPGs aren't for you OP.

 

[Damigos]

Dont spend time reading stats..just buy something from the cosmetic shop



(please dont)

 

[STARSBarry]

Dont spend time reading stats..just buy something from the cosmetic shop



(please dont)

How to tell us you play Darktide without saying you play Darktide.

 

[Mister Wolf]

Stats | Baldurs Gate 3 Wiki

Stats for Baldur's Gate 3. Stats Guide with complete list of all stats, their effects, and links to the gear that affects it.

baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com

 

[Wildebeest]

You are... absolutely correct.

 

[Punished Miku]

No game truly explains it 100%. The community got pretty dang close in FFXI. You have to actually run your own tests to determine percentages of damage reduction, damage increase, etc. People did that extensively in FFXI and practically wrote math papers on the game for others to use. You could tell which levels of stat start having diminishing returns with a decreasing percentage at certain stat levels, and other surprising elements. The game's have hidden equations that they don't tell the player.

 

[Disco Dave]

.

 

[TheAssist]

I do understand that it is probably very complicated to balance an rpg or any game for that matter. But there needs to be a ways to make it more cear to the player what your stats mean. I guess some games use DPS to abstract a lot of whats going on and at least it boils down you own damage output, not regarding the enemy stats.
Something similar for armor would be nice that takes into account damage received (maybe split up into diffferent dmaage types like ranged, magic, physical, etc) against a standardized opponent. So you have a dummy enemy with fixed stats tha each armor is compared against.

Just saying there is no way to do it .... feels lazy.

 

[Disco Dave]

When the armour looks like ass but the stats are on point

 

[Punished Miku]

.

OP, Dave here rolled a 1 on this post. But luckily he invested points in charisma and dexterity. DEX allowed him to get another turn relatively quickly after a brief cooldown because DEX improves his speed stat, and then his points in CHA allowed him to nail the joke in post #2.

Just a brief tutorial.

When the armour looks like ass but the stats are on point

 

[Spyxos]

Tell me you play Diablo 4 without telling me you play diablo 4.

That's totally true about D4. Way too many stats. I had a lot of Int on all items. Was that the best decision? Probably not. But I also didn't feel like reading through 10 guides about what stats I should have. Less is sometimes better.

 

[Miles708]

I stopped reading of flavor text and comparing stats and builds a long time ago. Bigger number is better, and if it isn't, who cares.

Rpgs and souls games expect you to be a warehouse manager with their heaps of useless loot and irrelevant stats. No thanks, I'd like to think I'm still not that dead inside.

 

[Interfectum]

Games are so easy now that these stats are largely inconsequential. You will be able to beat the game no matter what you are wearing. The only thing you need to worry about is "number go up." There is a high probability that some "RPGs" fake these stats anyway.

 

[AJUMP23]

Str should make you take more hit points from the enemy, or give you more hit points when you get hit.

 

[Warnen]

Only ones you need to know

• Mobility – Increases your movement speed and maximum jump height ( decreases class cool down hunters)
• Resilience – Increases the amount of damage you can take before dying (decreases class cool down titians)
• Recovery – Increases the speed at which you regain lost health (decreases class cool down warlocks)
• Discipline – Decreases the cooldown time of your grenades
• Intellect – Decreases the cooldown of your Super ability
• Strength – Decreases the cooldown time of your melee ability

 

[Kindela]

I stopped reading of flavor text and comparing stats and builds a long time ago. Bigger number is better, and if it isn't, who cares.

Rpgs and souls games expect you to be a warehouse manager with their heaps of useless loot and irrelevant stats. No thanks, I'd like to think I'm still not that dead inside.

Based and commonsensepilled.

 

[acidagfc]

Really depends on the game.

In FF16 stats mean jack shit.

In Souls games stats directly influence your health, stamina, encumbrance but also have some hidden interactions that can actually mean a lot (looking at you, poise).

In Path of Exile people can write a fucking PHD thesis paper on how some obscure stat interaction can make or break a build.

EDIT:
And if you think I'm joking about PHD here, here is a 2 hours beginners guide:

 

[Hudo]

I think Tim Cain and or Leonard Boyarsky got assblasted by RPGCodex for their talk where they essentially pointed out the same thing: Stats like +X are meaningless / not really fun. And what can be done instead to still have a power progression that feels fun and rewarding.
Personally, I think stat-based progression can be done well if the "feedback latency" (Time it takes the player to notice/feel that he is more powerful than he was) is not too big. In that sense, I think level-scaling is the arch-enemy of stat-based progression in RPGs.

 

[TheInfamousKira]

I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT DEXTERITY MEANS HELP

 

[cireza]

How am I supposed to make an educated decision as a player

You can't.

And now please put this 1 point you got when leveling up in one of these stats, thanks.

 

[kvltus lvlzvs]

Now i want to try making the most obscure and convoluted stat system possible

E.Y.E Divine Cybermancy would like to have a word with you

 

[haxan7]

I remember back when I played FFXI, people had every aspect of each stat fully explained with math to back it up. Min/maxing was essentially a religion. We ran a parser in-game to see how we were doing. We used XML scripts to change our gear on the fly during combat. FFXIV had some of that, but compared to 11, it was child's play.

No game truly explains it 100%. The community got pretty dang close in FFXI. You have to actually run your own tests to determine percentages of damage reduction, damage increase, etc. People did that extensively in FFXI and practically wrote math papers on the game for others to use. You could tell which levels of stat start having diminishing returns with a decreasing percentage at certain stat levels, and other surprising elements. The game's have hidden equations that they don't tell the player.

Didn't even see this post before I wrote the above. Remember how the exact effects of Treasure Hunter was a mystery basically forever? I was surprised to learn that in 2020 the devs actually released the specifics on how the different tiers of TH affected drop pools.

 

[Guilty_AI]

E.Y.E Divine Cybermancy would like to have a word with you

Its hilariously fitting that mental balance is the most useless stat in that game

 

[NeoIkaruGAF]

Good rpgs have explanation for every single stat.

Demon’s Souls says hello.