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Donald Trump releases first policy plan that I don't have major objections to

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B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Trump isn't getting elected so this whole discussion is mostly moot. I'm just talking about the policies in of themselves.

Except, as continually pointed out, Trump's proposals wouldn't do shit. You keep pivoting to CU but Trump doesn't want that gone. What he's proposed would do shit to aolve any of our issues, or even combat them.

They're designed to make you feel good, like something will be done eventhough they do nothing.
 

Goro Majima

Kitty Genovese Member
Without seriously evaluating his proposals in detail, I like the spirit behind what he's suggesting which is a rare occurrence in itself this election. I hope other politicians follow suit in addressing the issue.
 

shintoki

sparkle this bitch
Except that lobbying is basically protected by the first amendment of the constitution. You can't ban people form speaking with elected officials about what their interests are and you can't ban people form donating to politicians simply because they had said conversation.

You fix lobbying through:
1. term limits. Meaningful term limits would increase the pool of people trying to be lobbyists, sure, but it would also put a timer on any politician's value which caps the benefits of long term lobbying relationships. It would also get people out of the system sooner when they've lost the original idealism most politicians enter the Congress with and likely see a broader spectrum of politicians, not just lawyers and MBAs dominating the game.

2. Repeal Citizen's United so that lobbyists can't run unchecked and unobserved through PACs, making them live within the much tighter constraints of personal donation limits and the bundling approaches of old.

Those two alone get you pretty damn far. Restore the fairness doctrine and you'd take another big step. I'd also suggest a political donation tax (assessed and paid in by the recipient) of 10% offset by the first $250.00 of a political donation being tax deductible (this makes the maximum $2500 personal donation effectively tax neutral). This would encourage the average person to donate while applying a healthy tax on the major donations and bundlers. That tax would go to a public financing pool earmarked to local and state races for candidates pulling >10% of public support but with less than a reasonable threshold value of private financing (including their personal contributions).

Hence why I said he isn't doing it. It would ban everyone from an individual level to the PACs. It's a form of making the government know and hear what the people or companies want.

But it's a simple dream for affordable universal health care, lack of privatized prisons, the constant Israeli and Saudi Arabia issues, banking system under more control, etc. Being able to at least break up the Super powered ones would do a lot of good. More than I think anything else in this country.

I do agree with your fixes and I just like the idea. As I said, it's a simple dream ideal with no plausible way to ever make it into reality. So it's not like I have an decision to make. Heh.
 

HK-47

Oh, bitch bitch bitch.
Trump proposes something semi coherent and suddenly people are acting like he is normal candidate. Also do people not get how Congress work in relation to the executive branch?
 

Linkura

Member
He didn't say he was pro-single payer in the debates, he said he didn't want to have people dying in the streets. He also defended planned parenthood as much as severely pro-life Kasich did for the other services it provides that aren't abortion.
Yeah, I thought that poster's claim wasn't entirely accurate, but it didn't matter to make my point that he certainly doesn't support those positions now and is going to tow the party line.
 

Ekai

Member
Without seriously evaluating his proposals in detail, I like the spirit behind what he's suggesting which is a rare occurrence in itself this election. I hope other politicians follow suit in addressing the issue.

Hillary already has. That's the thing. It's a norm for her to discuss policy in detail. It's not for Trump.
 
"A Trump-Pence administration will defund Planned Parenthood and redirect those dollars to women’s health care that doesn’t provide abortion services."

That's a quote from Pence himself.

http://www.lifenews.com/2016/10/13/...nd-planned-parenthood-and-reverse-roe-v-wade/

Hence why any of Trump's "good" plans can just be discounted right from the start as pandering bullshit. The idea that this is something that Trump genuinely cares about is laughable.

The only things Trump has proven himself to be dedicated to are Mother Russia, giving himself tax cuts and.. Fuck I can't even come up with a third thing. Maybe coming up with laws to punish the media is the third thing.
 

commedieu

Banned
He's a liar though and a thief.. there's no reason to trust anything he says. Only real problem with any words coming out of his mouf.

And even if true, it's not worth the terror caused by building a wall and monitoring muslims. Or rolling back the clock for civil rights. Or boosting his trump' youths status in the western world.
 
People only call it lobbying if it's something they disagree with. We typically call it "advocacy" if it's something we agree with instead.

But they're more or less the same thing.
 
Given the pushback from the right-wing, I can't help but disagree with you 110%. And again, it takes extreme amounts of privilege to even propose such ideas.

Look at parlimentary systems in other countries who hold elections and who have achieved equality- More equality than you have in the US. Privilege has nothing to do with it.
I live in a country that has achieved equality for others through means that are not related coorperate lobbying. And I am telling you that the concept of progress is not tied to social progress. Privilege has nothing to do with it. What has something to do with it, is being open minded and knowledeable enough to realize there are other ways.



I have said before I'm in favor of gutting CU. Even in the post you quoted. I also dislike certain lobbies and the power they wield in regards to our political process. I agree on those basic fundamentals. But to just propose the extreme of getting rid of all of them and acting like what-if scenarios would have benefited minority populations (and benefited them better no less?) is entirely pointless. Your propositions don't live within reality and ignore precisely WHAT has been standing in the way of minorities/women obtaining even basic human rights. I'll give you a hint: It's not what you sure as hell seem to think it is. It's not like the right-wing would suddenly be okay with other individuals existing just because lobbies were gone. That makes less than 0 sense.

It's the right-wing playing to their base. It's their base itself. Without lobbies for us we sure as hell would have made less headway than we did. Don't act like you give a shit for minorities when you want to throw us to the wolves and wash your hands clean of it.


I proposed a hypothetical which you're unwilling to engage in. If you are unwilling to even entertain that the two are not mutually linked and that you cannot have social progress in comparable (or better ways) then that is your choice. I find it to be close minded, but that is on you.

My understanding of modern US political history is that the democrats started engaging mass political lobbying after the republicans had won several presidencies by doing it first, and that was supposedly the reason that led to the Democratic base to embrace mass political fundraising.
You propose that lobbies is what you used to defend yourself, but you're ignoring that the right wingers became powerful by using those very means. Which is why it is deeply puzzling to me that you do not want to engage in a hypothetical at how the landscape would look without lobbying.
It's akin to being told that if you keep taking poison you will also keep getting a cure. but you still keep poisoning yourself, so you can keep taking a cure. Its a unsustainable relationhip that exist in a feedback loop.
There seems to be many issues that a overwhelming amount of Americans agree on, and in a majority contest would create changes for the better, but which doesn't happen because a small segment of conservative influence superseeds the will of the people.

If the right didn't have the economic power to influence election at all, and if it was completely illegal for a politician to have any sort of financial incentive, where would the power come from?
You'd have a lot of selfish greedy people not going into politics since there wouldn't be any money to be made. You'd be more likely to get politicians who actually care about the people.
As soon as you create a place for financial incentive you open the doors for people whose opinions are compromised.
I'm not American, but I am telling you that it is deeply ignorant to think that the US way of doing things and protecting social progress is through counter-lobbying to their lobbying is not rooted in fact. It just isn't.


But you and me probably don't disagree in the sense that we agree about lobbying. We just have a disagreement about the political American landscape could look like if money in politics was not a thing, and our cultural upbringing and experiences probably reflect that.
 
D

Deleted member 80556

Unconfirmed Member
People only call it lobbying if it's something they disagree with. We typically call it "advocacy" if it's something we agree with instead.

But they're more or less the same thing.

Heck, I'd argue not all lobbying is bad. Lobbyists like The Planetary Society has helped to get NASA's budget increased for certain projects and to get certain projects done.

If they stopped advocating for a better NASA budget, missions like the Europa one would be scrapped.
 
No, it's not. It betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of how any of this works by anyone who does think it's a good idea! Lobbying isn't only a corporate thing! Environmental groups, gun control groups, public health groups, voting rights groups, immigrant's rights groups, freaking everyone uses lobbying to try and get Congress on their side. Going into a congressman's office and making a case for an issue is lobbying! This shit isn't black and white, despite how some people make it seem.

Lobbying is one of those topics that can really reveal a naivete in a poster. To your point I would also add that these lobbyists also provide assistance with drafting of legislation without which bills would be created by the members and their staff with help from crs which in my book is not a good thing.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
Citizens United was 100% a correct decision, and it boggles my mind that anyone could disagree. How can supposed liberals argue that it is constitutional to prohibit the publication of a documentary criticizing a politician.

That's a bit of an overstatement of what the regulation that was the subject of Citizens United did. It prohibited the publication of messages (I) specifically mentioning a candidate that were (ii) paid for by corporations or unions (iii) within 60 days of a federal election.
 

wildfire

Banned
Yeah the biggest problem in politics right now is clearly lobbying and not the fact that paid elected officials are working hard to make sure the government doesn't work.

e: It's BS anyway as it only moves the problem around, big money will instead lobby the elected officials by deciding who they give money to and actively campaign against any lawmaker that goes against them.

Lobbying isn't the problem but as it currently stands lobbyists act as the only tool Republican Congress has relied to ensure their strategy of making the government do nothing remotely viable. Take away their only tool and the mistakes they made to try and make government smaller without any viable alternative in administration is exposed.
 
Heck, I'd argue not all lobbying is bad. Lobbyists like The Planetary Society has helped to get NASA's budget increased for certain projects and to get certain projects done.

If they stopped advocating for a better NASA budget, missions like the Europa one would be scrapped.

Well, lobbying and advocacy are more or less the same thing. The word people choose is dependent on whether or not they agree with it. Basically why conservatives talk about the "gay marriage lobby" but liberals talks about "gay rights advocates."

"Lobbying" sounds dirty, while "advocacy" sounds good.
 

Ihyll

Junior Member
Why isn't this being called out? It's blatant pandering. Why didn't he announce these reforms at the beginning of his campaign?
 
Meanwhile, he hired the guy who runs Citizens United for his campaign. He also says he loves minorities while bashing them five minutes later in the same speech and telling his supporters to go harass them at the voting booth. Give me a fucking break with this shit already.

He's not the secret liberal you've always dreamed of and he doesn't believe in anything other than what's good for him at that very minute.
 
Again Trump has no friggin' clue what he's talking about. The right to lobby is an essential part in the 1st Amendment to the Constitution. I'm quite certain the Supreme Court would strike down any legislation or executive order that significantly curbs that right.
 

guek

Banned
When people prattle on about the evils of lobbying do they forget all it's done for minority, women's, and LGBT rights?
Don't get it twisted. People hate the way lobbying currently works, most don't want to ban lobbying altogether.

Count me among those surprised they agree with this asshat for once
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Why isn't this being called out? It's blatant pandering. Why didn't he announce these reforms at the beginning of his campaign?

Some people hate Clinton so much, they would rather believe this 11th hour pandering?
 

iamblades

Member
Again Trump has no friggin' clue what he's talking about. The right to lobby is an essential part in the 1st Amendment to the Constitution. I'm quite certain the Supreme Court would strike down any legislation or executive order that significantly curbs that right.

You say that like this is the first(or tenth :p) blatantly unconstitutional policy he has suggested.

At this point I assume anything he suggests is unconstitutional until proven otherwise.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
no term limits for congress killed any semblance of a democracy in this country

I'd love to see term limits for members of Congress tacked on to any lobbying reform but that has about as much chance of happening as Trump walking outside without his toupee.

You fix lobbying through:
1. term limits. Meaningful term limits would increase the pool of people trying to be lobbyists, sure, but it would also put a timer on any politician's value which caps the benefits of long term lobbying relationships. It would also get people out of the system sooner when they've lost the original idealism most politicians enter the Congress with and likely see a broader spectrum of politicians, not just lawyers and MBAs dominating the game.

Trump is now walking outside as bald as a pornstar's scrotum.

http://time.com/4535798/donald-trump-congress-term-limits/ (video)
One day after he unveiled a new ethics plan, Donald Trump added one more potential reform to his wish list: A Constitutional amendment to impose term limits on members of Congress.

“If I’m elected president, I will push for a Constitutional amendment to impose term limits on all members of Congress,” Trump said at a campaign rally in Colorado Springs, Colorado, Tuesday afternoon, to sustained cheers from the crowd. “Right? They’ve been talking about that for years.”

Trump’s campaign elaborated on the proposal in a press release emailed during the speech.

“Decades of failure in Washington, and decades of special interest dealing, must come to an end,” it says. “We have to break the cycle of corruption, and we have to give new voices a chance to go into government service. The time for Congressional term limits has arrived.”

His campaign proposed a six-year limit for the House and a 12-year cap for the Senate.
 
Trump is now walking outside as bald as a pornstar's scrotum.

http://time.com/4535798/donald-trump-congress-term-limits/ (video)

Term limits are bad idea jeans. This anti-lobbying movement combined with the term limit push is the most effective was that an authoritarian fascist could remove existing power structures in government and replace them with his cronies.

Trump is making an emotional plea to voters sense of fairness here but the end result would be to completely demolish the balance of power in Washington. Many of the checks and balances in government rely on long term relationships between politicians. Fractionally would only grow in a revolving door government. The whole thing would create chaos, more than enough cover to allow Trump to operate. No one could form a lasting opposition to him. He would be the only power center in government.

This is scary stuff.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Term limits are bad idea jeans. This anti-lobbying movement combined with the term limit push is the most effective was that an authoritarian fascist could remove existing power structures in government and replace them with his cronies.

Trump is making an emotional plea to voters sense of fairness here but the end result would be to completely demolish the balance of power in Washington. Many of the checks and balances in government rely on long term relationships between politicians. Fractionally would only grow in a revolving door government. The whole thing would create chaos, more than enough cover to allow Trump to operate. No one could form a lasting opposition to him. He would be the only power center in government.

This is scary stuff.
What do you make of the opensecrets and sunlight foundation articles that I linked in the OP in general? Do you think the current lobbying meta is not in need of reform? Or do you think it is in need of at least some reform, but Trump is not the person to do it?

I'm not sure about Trump's plan leaving him the only power center in government. He's still beholden to Congress, the Supreme Court, and public opinion.
 
What do you make of the opensecrets and sunlight foundation articles that I linked in the OP in general? Do you think the current lobbying meta is not in need of reform? Or do you think it is in need of at least some reform, but Trump is not the person to do it?

I'm not sure about Trump's plan leaving him the only power center in government. He's still beholden to Congress, the Supreme Court, and public opinion.

Lobbying reform can definitely have some positive effects. The focus should be on reducing the amount of corporate money that flows through the system.

But honestly the issue with the current equation is that voters don't hold their representatives responsible for ethical breaches. Almost all lobbying activities are already out in the open. The fundamental issue it that only a fraction of a fraction of the population takes part in the primary process. In most districts the electorate is skewed towards one party or the other. So whoever makes it thorough the primary process has a huge advantage.

We need more local journalism generating local accountability in lawmakers. Radically reforming lobbying laws is approaching the problem from the wrong end. It is admitting that we don't want to bother having voters hold their representatives accountable. It's giving up on a vital part of democracy. Another reason why someone like Trump would support it in the first place.

Another thing about lobbying in general. One of the only things that voters agree on in a bipartisan way these days is that politicians need to reach across the isle and compromise more often. 3rd party lobbies are gennerally the force that enables that type of dealmaking. They are the ones who are pulling together bipartisan blocks of voters to support such deals. Lobbying is basically ensconced in the 1st Amendment. I am not sure how you can say that groups of like minded citizens aren't allowed to work together in to fight for their self interest.

There are obvious ways that lobbies can be detrimental. Our government works best when those negative aspects are constrained by checks and balances rather than when they are simply excised. People are always going to work together to make deals and horse-trade. It is better to knowledge that and plan for it rather than to try to create laws that force people to act unnaturally.

Transparency and accountability are key here. These, of course, are two things that Trump abhors. So instead he is going to try to sell his shitty authoritarian witch hunt.
 

Quixzlizx

Member
Do you think he's lying about building walls, taxing outsourcers, and banning Muslims?

I think he said those things to appeal to various people without having a fucking clue or caring about whether they could/would ever actually be implemented..

Were you the guy who believed the student council president candidate who said that he was going to ban homework and get free pizza in the cafeteria?
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
I think he said those things to appeal to various people without having a fucking clue or caring about whether they could/would ever actually be implemented..

Were you the guy who believed the student council president candidate who said that he was going to ban homework and get free pizza in the cafeteria?

No I wasn't. Did I give you the impression that I believe the words coming out of Trump's mouth?
 

chaosblade

Unconfirmed Member
Term limits are bad idea jeans. This anti-lobbying movement combined with the term limit push is the most effective was that an authoritarian fascist could remove existing power structures in government and replace them with his cronies.

Trump is making an emotional plea to voters sense of fairness here but the end result would be to completely demolish the balance of power in Washington. Many of the checks and balances in government rely on long term relationships between politicians. Fractionally would only grow in a revolving door government. The whole thing would create chaos, more than enough cover to allow Trump to operate. No one could form a lasting opposition to him. He would be the only power center in government.

This is scary stuff.

Out of curiosity, do you feel like that would apply to extended term limits (like a combined 18 years between both chambers), or just something more strict like the 8 year presidency? Because I feel like something like an 18 year term limit is long enough that it maintains the benefits of not having term limits while also keeping things more fresh than they are now. It would help curb voter complacency and encourage new ideas and contemporary views.


That being said, I'd rather have the bribery removed from lobbying than see term limits. Lobbying itself should be fine, the problem is how it's used. Accepting money from lobbyists or companies should be a punishable offense, through fines or impeachment for repeat offenses.
 

wildfire

Banned
Why isn't this being called out? It's blatant pandering. Why didn't he announce these reforms at the beginning of his campaign?

This is Donald Trump. He's not pandering. He's lashing out at Clinton the best way he knows how with his limp hands.
 
Lobbying is basically corruption made legal.

This. There is no two ways about it. 3rd woulrld countries are constantly criticized about corrupt governments taking bribes from companies etc for favors.This is exactly same with sugar coating it. I think it's even worse than those 3rd world countries because at least they recognize it as a disease but lobbying is considered legal.

I really hope any kind of lobbying is made illegal.
 
Out of curiosity, do you feel like that would apply to extended term limits (like a combined 18 years between both chambers), or just something more strict like the 8 year presidency? Because I feel like something like an 18 year term limit is long enough that it maintains the benefits of not having term limits while also keeping things more fresh than they are now. It would help curb voter complacency and encourage new ideas and contemporary views.


That being said, I'd rather have the bribery removed from lobbying than see term limits. Lobbying itself should be fine, the problem is how it's used. Accepting money from lobbyists or companies should be a punishable offense, through fines or impeachment for repeat offenses.

It already could be a punishable offense if voters cared to punish. K Street doesn't work in the shadows they do it all in the open. The problem is that voters don't seem to notice or care. The death of the local newspaper certainly hasn't helped with congressional accountability.

I think that there is value to having some congress members have long careers. I think government works best when it moves slowly. Continuity can be a positive force in government. There needs to be a proper balance between the old and the new. Again, I think that is more up to the voters than anything else.

The states that have moved to term limits for lawmakers have not had positive results. It only seems to exacerbate the actual problems of voter engagement. Politicians loose a good bit of their individuality and become mere extensions of pre-existing party dogma.

This. There is no two ways about it. 3rd woulrld countries are constantly criticized about corrupt governments taking bribes from companies etc for favors.This is exactly same with sugar coating it. I think it's even worse than those 3rd world countries because at least they recognize it as a disease but lobbying is considered legal.

I really hope any kind of lobbying is made illegal.

Do you have a problem with the ACLU or Planned Parenthood or Emiliy's List or Global Zero? The only people who are fighting against Global Warming in any real way are lobbyists do you have a problem with them? How about Teachers' Unions? Workers' 'Unions?
 

PopeReal

Member
This. If he wasn't such an attention whore that lacked any leadership qualities I think this would be a closer race.

Attention whore? Lack of leadership qualities?

Have you even payed attention to the shit that he does?

He is a racist, sexist, worthless pile of shit. I always find it curious when people skip over these small details.
 

mugwhump

Member
Guess there's a first time for everything. I wonder if he'll mention this tomorrow.

The only way I can see congress playing along is if somehow Trump takes the presidency and the dems take congress.
Who am I kidding, it still wouldn't happen
 

Dude Abides

Banned
Presumably, you can still talk to your elected officials. You just can't do that as your job, if you recently worked for the government.

Hard to see how that solves the problem. You don't see how, for example, prohibiting BLM from hiring Eric Holder as an advocate on their behalf restricts their ability to try to convince the government to address their issues?
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Hard to see how that solves the problem. You don't see how, for example, prohibiting BLM from hiring Eric Holder as an advocate on their behalf restricts their ability to try to convince the government to address their issues?
Yeah, I can see that. That seems to be more of the exception than the rule nowadays. The actual details of how it works can be workshopped, of course. I think overarching idea is to minimize the "profit motive" of lobbying but to keep the "to make the world a better place" motive as intact as possible.
 

aaaaa0

Member
He's definitely going to try to bring this up at tomorrows debate and use it to try to attack Hillary on corruption.

I hope she's got a response for this.
 
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