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Dota 2 Beta Thread 3: Gunnar Optiks Required [Faster Loading]

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Generally, I think I am becoming more and more disappointed with DOTA2. Every game, without fail devolves into carry wars at the end, with some very few exceptions of games I've played with push teams. But these games are in the vast vast minority.

HoN's developers when I played (more than a year ago) had the right idea at the time: emphasize ganking, dynamic play, lots of skill shots, and try to balance all 3 dominant team strategies (gank, push, carry late). DOTA2 emphasizes carries, stagnant play, right click abilities, and doesn't seem to have team strategies beyond "sit back 'n farm" well balanced.

The game just ends up getting boring because every game ends the same way. The last patch did give some underpicked heroes much needed buffs, but it doesn't seem to have affected overarching strategies at all.
 
snack said:
I hate it when the other team unpauses our pause because a teammate is away doing something. Just happened to my team last game...

CAN'T YOU JUST WAIT TWO MINUTES?

What horrible DOTA etiquette.
Click to expand...

had the same thing happen today. Other team pauses, we wait. We pause, other team immediately unpauses and gets mad at us.
 
burntchomsky said:
Generally, I think I am becoming more and more disappointed with DOTA2. Every game, without fail devolves into carry wars at the end, with some very few exceptions of games I've played with push teams. But these games are in the vast vast minority.

HoN's developers when I played (more than a year ago) had the right idea at the time: emphasize ganking, dynamic play, lots of skill shots, and try to balance all 3 dominant team strategies (gank, push, carry late). DOTA2 emphasizes carries, stagnant play, right click abilities, and doesn't seem to have team strategies beyond "sit back 'n farm" well balanced.

The game just ends up getting boring because every game ends the same way. The last patch did give some underpicked heroes much needed buffs, but it doesn't seem to have affected overarching strategies at all.
Click to expand...
Pushing, ganking, carry, and composite strategies are all presently very viable, but you're mostly at the mercy of the team you roll into matchmaking with in that regard. That you claim that carries and right-click power is emphasized over all else is wildly inaccurate, pushing and to a slightly lesser extent ganking has more or less been the game's core in the competitive scene for quite some time (with carries being lategame insurance, as opposed to the the center).

Judging the game balance by public matchmaking is liable to be very deceptive, so much of the draft comes down to comfort zones, which are even stronger than they would be otherwise given frequently unfamiliar teammates in the mix. Setting the balance bar on this level of play would be nightmarish for the game's balance.

Edit: Oh, and I'd be loathe to forget AoE teamfight lineups, those are also very strong in the metagame.
 
burntchomsky said:
Generally, I think I am becoming more and more disappointed with DOTA2. Every game, without fail devolves into carry wars at the end, with some very few exceptions of games I've played with push teams. But these games are in the vast vast minority.

HoN's developers when I played (more than a year ago) had the right idea at the time: emphasize ganking, dynamic play, lots of skill shots, and try to balance all 3 dominant team strategies (gank, push, carry late). DOTA2 emphasizes carries, stagnant play, right click abilities, and doesn't seem to have team strategies beyond "sit back 'n farm" well balanced.

The game just ends up getting boring because every game ends the same way. The last patch did give some underpicked heroes much needed buffs, but it doesn't seem to have affected overarching strategies at all.
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Sounds like all you do is solo pub.

Find some friends. Play with them. Try out some of the many strats that work in Dota2.
 
I definitely see his point. I played Dota WC3 for about 3 years, then when Hon beta started I switched and now I'm on Dota 2 since I joined beta last summer.

I think the Hon pool just has more heroes that are viable gankers around the mid game. Hon is designed much more than Dota around getting as much PvP combat as possible. S2 has really tried to always encourage players to push towers and continue ganking after winning fights instead of returning to the jungle or lane to farm.

Some people in here seem to hate the existence of Hon or anything related to it but a LOT of Dota 2's community features, and the changes they've made recently such as making wards cheaper, giving more gold assist money, adding in buy back timer are all things that are either directly lifted from Hon, or perhaps less intentionally, things Hon simply did first.

That said there are lots of great strategies that you can employ to win, but pubs are generally dominated by 45-minute farm heroes. It's really hard to get people to adapt to different play styles, especially when communication is hampered by language barriers, or people who just lost their previous games and are demanding they play ricer carry since they don't trust pubs to play the role well. When my team is Viper BH SA Sylla and me as Lich or Jakiro, I don't mind getting trashed by a good team set up who finishes the game at 25 minutes through pushing and forcing team fights on underprepared and uncoordinated carries.
 
miz5m.jpg


Hmmmm
 
burntchomsky said:
Generally, I think I am becoming more and more disappointed with DOTA2. Every game, without fail devolves into carry wars at the end, with some very few exceptions of games I've played with push teams. But these games are in the vast vast minority.

HoN's developers when I played (more than a year ago) had the right idea at the time: emphasize ganking, dynamic play, lots of skill shots, and try to balance all 3 dominant team strategies (gank, push, carry late). DOTA2 emphasizes carries, stagnant play, right click abilities, and doesn't seem to have team strategies beyond "sit back 'n farm" well balanced.

The game just ends up getting boring because every game ends the same way. The last patch did give some underpicked heroes much needed buffs, but it doesn't seem to have affected overarching strategies at all.
Click to expand...

The first thing I have to genuinely ask before anything else is, what skill bracket do you play in and what skill level do you consider yourself? Because this issue of "carry wars" is simply something I do not see at all where I play. The game is exactly how you describe HoN here: huge rewards for ganking (lane domination, gold advantage, tower pressure, map control), dynamic play (??? what does this even mean in comparison from HoN to DOTA2), and a healthy balance of ganking, pushing, and carrying strategies. I'd even argue that DOTA2 discourages late game carry wars with the current hero pool and available items like smoke, mek, and medallion.

I don't really want to list all the different strategies, but just to give a taste of it, top tier heroes like Prophet, Wisp, Jugg, Rubick, Enigma, Tidehunter, Leshrac, Venomancer, Dragon Knight, Storm Spirit, on and on... None of these heroes emphasize sitting back and farming. None of them. They're all about turning effective ganks into tower kills and map control. Some do it more through sheer ganking strength, some do it by stealing enemy advantages, and others do it through early-game tower pummeling.

How does DOTA2 emphasize carries, stagnant play, and right click abilities(?!?). With all due respect, this sounds more like a symptom of a lack of coordination/leadership within your team and a lack of familiarity with DOTA than an issue with the game.

S2 has really tried to always encourage players to push towers and continue ganking after winning fights instead of returning to the jungle or lane to farm.
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This isn't any different in DOTA. The only thing stopping this from happening is players who don't know how to push their advantage.

Judging the game balance by public matchmaking is liable to be very deceptive, so much of the draft comes down to comfort zones, which are even stronger than they would be otherwise given frequently unfamiliar teammates in the mix. Setting the balance bar on this level of play would be nightmarish for the game's balance.
Click to expand...

Much more eloquently than I could have said, Botolf.
 
Artanisix said:
The first thing I have to genuinely ask before anything else is, what skill bracket do you play in and what skill level do you consider yourself? Because this issue of "carry wars" is simply something I do not see at all where I play. The game is exactly how you describe HoN here: huge rewards for ganking (lane domination, gold advantage, tower pressure, map control), dynamic play (??? what does this even mean in comparison from HoN to DOTA2), and a healthy balance of ganking, pushing, and carrying strategies. I'd even argue that DOTA2 discourages late game carry wars with the current hero pool and available items like smoke, mek, and medallion.

I don't really want to list all the different strategies, but just to give a taste of it, top tier heroes like Prophet, Wisp, Jugg, Rubick, Enigma, Tidehunter, Leshrac, Venomancer, Dragon Knight, Storm Spirit, on and on... None of these heroes emphasize sitting back and farming. None of them. They're all about turning effective ganks into tower kills and map control. Some do it more through sheer ganking strength, some do it by stealing enemy advantages, and others do it through early-game tower pummeling.

How does DOTA2 emphasize carries, stagnant play, and right click abilities(?!?). With all due respect, this sounds more like a symptom of a lack of coordination/leadership within your team and a lack of familiarity with DOTA than an issue with the game.



This isn't any different in DOTA. The only thing stopping this from happening is players who don't know how to push their advantage.



Much more eloquently than I could have said, Botolf.
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I don't really think his skill level is relevant.
4-5q games in dota go however you want them to and thats whatever, but 1-2q often results in games that sound exactly like what hes describing. In hon at least, even if you had 4 completely independent people as teammates the game would still be as fast paced as most 5qs (except when you had THAT scout on your team).

i was that scout


edit: shoutout to swiftlame for getting banned that one time for refusing to help his team and nonstop farming
 
Much more eloquently than I could have said, Botolf.
Click to expand...

It's a good point and I think it's spot on, but developers can still attempt to make the comfort zone broader at all tiers of play, not just the high end, where people recognize the need for organization and good team picks and tactics.
 
I wonder when they are gonna release the halloween update, for TF2 it always starts on the 27th, and then ends around 6/7/8 november. I'm happy that they didn't wait until full release of the game though.
 
Some excerpts from my last few games:

Vengeful Spirit: 0/8/4
Disruptor: 0/2/1
Batrider: 0/6/1
Venomancer: 2/11/7

doOSJ.gif

And here I was thinking about practicing with carries more. SAVE ME HALLOWEEN UPDATE
 
burntchomsky said:
Generally, I think I am becoming more and more disappointed with DOTA2. Every game, without fail devolves into carry wars at the end, with some very few exceptions of games I've played with push teams. But these games are in the vast vast minority.

HoN's developers when I played (more than a year ago) had the right idea at the time: emphasize ganking, dynamic play, lots of skill shots, and try to balance all 3 dominant team strategies (gank, push, carry late). DOTA2 emphasizes carries, stagnant play, right click abilities, and doesn't seem to have team strategies beyond "sit back 'n farm" well balanced.

The game just ends up getting boring because every game ends the same way. The last patch did give some underpicked heroes much needed buffs, but it doesn't seem to have affected overarching strategies at all.
Click to expand...

It's probably because you're a lot worse at Dota 2 than HoN. What you described pretty much perfectly describes what happens in HoN at the lower skill brackets too.
Both games have that same problem in lower skill games.
 
Forkball said:
Some excerts from my last few games:

Vengeful Spirit: 0/8/4
Disruptor: 0/2/1
Batrider: 0/6/1
Venomancer: 2/11/7
Click to expand...

If it makes you feel any better I'm watching my sister's game and she has a riki with no items at 25 mins. The highest GPM is 300 on a god like BH. So things can get worse :D
 
JustinBB7 said:
I wonder when they are gonna release the halloween update, for TF2 it always starts on the 27th, and then ends around 6/7/8 november. I'm happy that they didn't wait until full release of the game though.
Click to expand...

I'm expecting it to be on the last Thursday of the month (25th). I wouldn't be surprised if Scream Fortress and the Steam Halloween sale started the same day.
 
burntchomsky said:
Generally, I think I am becoming more and more disappointed with DOTA2. Every game, without fail devolves into carry wars at the end, with some very few exceptions of games I've played with push teams. But these games are in the vast vast minority.

HoN's developers when I played (more than a year ago) had the right idea at the time: emphasize ganking, dynamic play, lots of skill shots, and try to balance all 3 dominant team strategies (gank, push, carry late). DOTA2 emphasizes carries, stagnant play, right click abilities, and doesn't seem to have team strategies beyond "sit back 'n farm" well balanced.

The game just ends up getting boring because every game ends the same way. The last patch did give some underpicked heroes much needed buffs, but it doesn't seem to have affected overarching strategies at all.
Click to expand...

I know that feel bro. There are games where people are mostly apathetic and don't buy smoke/counter ward and push. Those are always going to come down to whoever had the most efficient farming carry. Its just pure pub play, if you're looking for some different ways to play the game I'd recommend finding 4 other people and queuing cm. Putting draft into the game changes the entire way it is played.
 
Anybody saw that Flash Esports game just now? Pudge Veno lane vs a TA. Pudge got like 6 kills in 5 minutes. The end score was 1-32 lmao.
 
bzm said:
I don't really think his skill level is relevant.
4-5q games in dota go however you want them to and thats whatever, but 1-2q often results in games that sound exactly like what hes describing. In hon at least, even if you had 4 completely independent people as teammates the game would still be as fast paced as most 5qs (except when you had THAT scout on your team).

i was that scout


edit: shoutout to swiftlame for getting banned that one time for refusing to help his team and nonstop farming
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure it does matter because my solo queue games do not go that way almost ever. The only time I get mass farming when playing alone is when something like Antimage is picked. Other than that, I see more ganking strategies than anything else.
 
How does that graph weigh attack speed into it? Actually how is that graph weighing anything, I don't understand.

EDIT: Oh you changed your post to say it's just for BH. Is it just for jinada crits?

EDIT2: Dignitas vs Empire, action-packed game so far. 22 kills in 10 minutes http://www.twitch.tv/onemoregametv2. Sven warcry + Wisp overcharge = insane armor.
 
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