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Dota 2 Beta Thread 3: Gunnar Optiks Required [Faster Loading]

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The trading in Dota 2 scares me.

Right now it's already nearly on par with TF2. What's left is having a buds/bills equivalent as a standard.

A lot of items will shoot up in price once it's out in beta :0
 
Yesterday I lost my perfect disruptor record... and it came in a horrible fashion. We were around 20+ kills up, then my team imploded. We kept fighting 3vs5, 4vs5... 1vs3 time after time... God I wanted to choke our carries
 
Yesterday I lost my perfect disruptor record... and it came in a horrible fashion. We were around 20+ kills up, then my team imploded. We kept fighting 3vs5, 4vs5... 1vs3 time after time... God I wanted to choke our carries

WHERE ARE THE WARDS?
 
So disapointed that I missed the $15 All Ursa Item sets when it had the Alpine Set, I think I missed out by like 5 minutes.
 
zA4M2.png


For any future concerns about what item to get for bounty hunter.

How is Maelstrom negative?

Edit: Witch Doctor, Clinkz, Sven? Oh boy, this game is going to be something.
 
Doing really well with Luna, so glad I've gave up Drow Ranger for her :)

Also, first game ever with Lich: 15-3-21 :O

Luna is very nice. I'm not a big fan of the hardcore ricers like drow, I'd rather be able to gank/push/team fight much earlier like luna can.

Just finished a game as lycan, had the enemy invoker tell me he's still overpowered and that I'm a "lycan picker".
 
I'm pretty sure it does matter because my solo queue games do not go that way almost ever. The only time I get mass farming when playing alone is when something like Antimage is picked. Other than that, I see more ganking strategies than anything else.

uh yah bro too bad theres an am or previously morphling picked in every fucking match.
I'm not saying that its every game, but certainly more often than in hon, and I've played both games at a whatever-you-want-to-call-it high tier level so dont even GIVE ME THAT SON.

Luna is very nice. I'm not a big fan of the hardcore ricers like drow, I'd rather be able to gank/push/team fight much earlier like luna can.

Just finished a game as lycan, had the enemy invoker tell me he's still overpowered and that I'm a "lycan picker".

psssssh, luna is the ricer
 
uh yah bro too bad theres an am or previously morphling picked in every fucking match.
I'm not saying that its every game, but certainly more often than in hon, and I've played both games at a whatever-you-want-to-call-it high tier level so dont even GIVE ME THAT SON.

You don't ever solo queue in doters + you only play smurfs bro

And the post that started this all was claiming that the vast majority of dota games revolve around 45-minute late game carry farm-fests, when clearly it does not around higher levels. So it has been given son.
 
bzm duos with his trash friend to bring his team MMR down.

FRIENDSLAST 2 MONTHS
Friend---------Matches------Win Rate
purpledonut------8-----------87.50%
 
bzm duos with his trash friend to bring his team MMR down.

FRIENDSLAST 2 MONTHS
Friend---------Matches------Win Rate
purpledonut------8-----------87.50%

ok that was on the one account that actually is in a smurf bracket
he's new to the game!
 
I duo queue fairly often and 2 of my smurfs aren't even smurfs

edit: forgot a "but nT"

https://dotabuff.com/players/84202639/matches
Weaver game: lots of ganking early/mid
TA game: 56 kills in 40 minutes
Viper game: Mass ganks by bat and bloodseeker
Lion game: Mass ganks by nyx and TA
Tiny game: Prophet + Tiny gangs all day erry day
Weaver #2: Constant TA BH gangs
Zeus: Pudge Jugg Warlock 30 minute crush

Okay so none of the top games on your account have farmfest carry lords in them, let's look at dendi's latest games now. Dendi almost always solo queues are queues with randoms.

EDIT: Wrong dendi, gonna go through a different player's games in a sec
https://dotabuff.com/players/87278757
Navi Puppey's games
Not going to list them one by one, you can see that the vast majority of them are not farmfests if you click on each match. There's like one game with an Alch and PL in it that looks like a farmfest on his first page and that's about it.

https://dotabuff.com/players/41470731/matches
Col Fluffnstuff
Same deal, most games are centered around pushing and ganking rather than farming.

https://dotabuff.com/players/91988610/matches
CLG Miracle
Once again all about ganks. The games where he played hard carry he usually lost to gank strats.

So where are the farmfests in the very high bracket?
Claim small sample size etc. etc., I can keep going through more top players to show that farmfest is far, far, FAR from the norm in very high bracket.
 
https://dotabuff.com/players/84202639/matches
Weaver game: lots of ganking early/mid
TA game: 56 kills in 40 minutes
Viper game: Mass ganks by bat and bloodseeker
Lion game: Mass ganks by nyx and TA
Tiny game: Prophet + Tiny gangs all day erry day
Weaver #2: Constant TA BH gangs
Zeus: Pudge Jugg Warlock 30 minute crush

Okay so none of the top games on your account have farmfest carry lords in them, let's look at dendi's latest games now. Dendi almost always solo queues are queues with randoms.
none of those are solo queue
edit: I dont even think I played all of those games, some might have been bokr LOL
EDIT: Wrong dendi, gonna go through a different player's games in a sec
Claim small sample size etc. etc., I can keep going through more top players to show that farmfest is far, far, FAR from the norm in very high bracket.

uhhhh, I don't think its fair to compare to dendi since hes a good enough player that he can control a game pretty much by himself
as a counterexample, take someone like
rycho
. He's good enough that he can turn almost any game into a 1000gpm farmfest. And he solo queues most of the time if i recall correctly.
edit again: I'm not gonna dig through it but im sure you can find plenty of rice games over here https://dotabuff.com/players/90405736

And again, Im not saying its the norm, im saying it happens more often than in hon. Lategame carries like AM are viable in this game whereas except for specific patches in hon they were garbage. (I mean, i guess you could call ra or gemini or something like that a lategame carry but they didnt play like am or void or morph do)


edit for your edit: y so defensive, i didnt call this a ricelord game i just sed it happenz sometimes jeezus
 
Not being defensive, you said his skill bracket doesn't matter for farmfests, I said it does, I show you it does by pointing to high level players who generally solo/duo queu. That's all. Not sure why it's not fair to point to dendi, puppey etc. but it's okay to point to someone who makes the exception rather than the rule by ricing all game.

Heavy ricing in matchmaking with carry vs carry clashes --> common in lower tier games, severely lowers in popularity and effectiveness as skill level raises.
 
Not being defensive, you said his skill bracket doesn't matter for farmfests, I said it does, I show you it does by pointing to high level players who generally solo/duo queu. That's all. Not sure why it's not fair to point to dendi, puppey etc. but it's okay to point to someone who makes the exception rather than the rule by ricing all game.
im saying if youre gonna look at players that good you might as well also look at counter examples
(also looked at fluff's games, shoutout to khanh for carrying the shit out of his pudge)
Heavy ricing in matchmaking with carry vs carry clashes --> common in lower tier games, severely lowers in popularity and effectiveness as skill level raises.
yes but it doesnt disappear entirely
 
Yes but the argument wasn't whether it disappears entirely, the argument was that the vast majority of games are about farming. That was the whole argument, and that is clearly false.
 
Yes but the argument wasn't whether it disappears entirely, the argument was that the vast majority of games are about farming. That was the whole argument, and that is clearly false.

i never said 'vast majority' bra

edit: though now that i think about it, fuck zephyr, and fuck freakinchair by proxy
 
The first post from burntchomsky claimed DOTA2 emphasizes carries, stagnant play, and strategies that revolve around sitting back and farming.

Botolf and I responded with, no, that's not true, look here, here, and here with these strategies and current metagame style. I went a little further and asked, what skill level are you playing?

You quote me and say, "I don't really think his skill level is relevant. 1-2q often results in games that sound exactly like what hes describing."

Yes you did claim exactly as he did because you agreed with him. You're changing your argument bro.
 
The first post from burntchomsky claimed DOTA2 emphasizes carries, stagnant play, and strategies that revolve around sitting back and farming.

Botolf and I responded with, no, that's not true, look here, here, and here with these strategies and current metagame style. I went a little further and asked, what skill level are you playing?

You quote me and say, "I don't really think his skill level is relevant. 1-2q often results in games that sound exactly like what hes describing."

Yes you did claim exactly as he did because you agreed with him. You're changing your argument bro.

hmm, I meant often with respect to never but I guess I wasn't clear about that.
 
Luna is very nice. I'm not a big fan of the hardcore ricers like drow, I'd rather be able to gank/push/team fight much earlier like luna can.

Just finished a game as lycan, had the enemy invoker tell me he's still overpowered and that I'm a "lycan picker".

And of course after I say that I see an awesome DR with perfect farm.
 
psssssh, luna is the ricer

Clearing a five+ stack ancient as luna/dragon knight and hitting level 16 before 25:00, sogood.

I'm surprised to see Pudge is so frequently picked. And Invoker

All of my friends gravitate toward pudge when they first play dota. Invoker is just cheap as fuck and is picked in almost all my games. He fits almost any team and is a solid mid. He's not THAT hard to play, his true depth only comes in super late game with an aghanims... He's fine with 4-5 spells before then.

And of course after I say that I see an awesome DR with perfect farm.

If drow gets to that point she just melts faces, hard. Manta/Daedalus/HotD drow critting for 1k+ hurts. The problem is getting there. As much shit as sniper gets I find him infinitely easier to get big on than drow.
 
I'll take Drow over Sniper any day. You can gank as soon as you have boots, one level in silence and two in slow. I usually start ganks around level 6, personally, when I have treads and two wraith bands. If someone comes to your lane to set up a gank you can make short work of heroes who have escape mechanisms by clever timing of silence. Keep void and AM on the back foot.

The tricky part with Drow is being able to farm in between ganks and fights. She's my favorite hero though, I either go Manta->Daedalus or Lothars->MKB depending on who I'm up against and how good my teammates are.

Also LOL at Morphling's win rate. In the 6-ish years I've played Dota, I have always hated Morph. Never enjoyed playing him, and always dreaded playing against him. Good riddance.
 
All of my friends gravitate toward pudge when they first play dota. Invoker is just cheap as fuck and is picked in almost all my games. He fits almost any team and is a solid mid. He's not THAT hard to play, his true depth only comes in super late game with an aghanims... He's fine with 4-5 spells before then.

Weird, why? Higher than normal reflex and positioning requirements and a strategy that mostly revolves around pulling strong heroes towards you and dealing damage to yourself...he doesn't seem that noob friendly
 
Weird, why? Higher than normal reflex and positioning requirements and a strategy that mostly revolves around pulling strong heroes towards you and dealing damage to yourself...he doesn't seem that noob friendly

The same reason why people play Sniper and Spy in TF2. They get to hang around uselessly waiting for that Perfect Hook instead of playing better.
 
It's a good point and I think it's spot on, but developers can still attempt to make the comfort zone broader at all tiers of play, not just the high end, where people recognize the need for organization and good team picks and tactics.
The impression I've formed is that nothing short of an overwhelming metagame shift (ie Dark Seer becoming a staple competitively) or a "meme" shift (ie Singsing Shadowblade-Daedalus Kunkka inspiring copycats) is enough to shake your average pub player into expanding beyond their personal comfort zone, at least as balance changes go. This becomes less and less true the higher you climb in MM, the same is true the more slots you've filled with players you have a history with, but solo queue will always be plagued by this to some extent.

If Dota is to remain a peerless competitive game, Valve needs to continue balancing from the top down, because it is the top that will push every single skill, item, and hero to its utmost limits. The game's middle and bottom can't do that, they exist in a state of pseudobalance, where skills, items, and heroes are bottlenecked by player inexperience and lack of team cohesion. You can build up the players with tutorials, skill and play guides, as well as feedback mechanisms hooked into the game (without interfering with it), but balancing from the middle or bottom is a recipe for catastrophe, for several reasons:

  • Such changes will tend to be felt the hardest at the topmost levels of play, and not on the levels you target.
  • Such changes may not even be felt at all if you're prudent and careful. If you go overboard to ensure it, you destroy competitive play.
  • Looking at the middle and bottom levels confounds your ability to even diagnose balance problems accurately in the first place, because it again comes down to immense comfort zones and whim.

There's certainly means to broaden comfort zones, but what won't work here is doing as League did and taking a hammer to the design, and bringing the ceiling down for everyone.
 
Whyyyy do I keep going back to All Pick? I shouldn't, I really shouldn't, its like an abusive relationship but sometimes I just want the full selection of heroes.
 
Whyyyy do I keep going back to All Pick? I shouldn't, I really shouldn't, its like an abusive relationship but sometimes I just want the full selection of heroes.

95% of the time, I queue for RD and SD, but then I get on a streak where im basically forced to play heroes I dont want to, and do AP and end up cookie cutter teams, while my team randomed 4 melee carries.

DotA is a very abusive relationship.
 
Whyyyy do I keep going back to All Pick? I shouldn't, I really shouldn't, its like an abusive relationship but sometimes I just want the full selection of heroes.

It's certainly shit for any kind of competitive team composition, but it's fun for trying to learn how to play a particular hero. I've played Visage 7 times in a row thanks to all pick, and I'm coming up with ways to use him more effectively because of repeated use.

I do often wish that random gold did not exist, however (or random was disabled after the first 20 seconds of picking.) It's not funny any more when the last person to choose a hero on your team randoms a hard carry with 30 seconds to go before the horn.
 
note: Thunderhammer has a negative ratio because when you have above 1000 dmg, the fact that there's a 25% chance of deso not procing (thunder) actually means that MATHAMATICALLY REDUCES DAMAGE

There's the reasoning, besides, u can't crit the chain lightning anyways ~_~
 
The impression I've formed is that nothing short of an overwhelming metagame shift (ie Dark Seer becoming a staple competitively) or a "meme" shift (ie Singsing Shadowblade-Daedalus Kunkka inspiring copycats) is enough to shake your average pub player into expanding beyond their personal comfort zone, at least as balance changes go. This becomes less and less true the higher you climb in MM, the same is true the more slots you've filled with players you have a history with, but solo queue will always be plagued by this to some extent.

If Dota is to remain a peerless competitive game, Valve needs to continue balancing from the top down, because it is the top that will push every single skill, item, and hero to its utmost limits. The game's middle and bottom can't do that, they exist in a state of pseudobalance, where skills, items, and heroes are bottlenecked by player inexperience and lack of team cohesion. You can build up the players with tutorials, skill and play guides, as well as feedback mechanisms hooked into the game (without interfering with it), but balancing from the middle or bottom is a recipe for catastrophe, for several reasons:

  • Such changes will tend to be felt the hardest at the topmost levels of play, and not on the levels you target.
  • Such changes may not even be felt at all if you're prudent and careful. If you go overboard to ensure it, you destroy competitive play.
  • Looking at the middle and bottom levels confounds your ability to even diagnose balance problems accurately in the first place, because it again comes down to immense comfort zones and whim.

There's certainly means to broaden comfort zones, but what won't work here is doing as League did and taking a hammer to the design, and bringing the ceiling down for everyone.

I think most of it comes down to education and experience. If you educate the average player to where even in low tier games you get stomped because your opponents recognize the benefits of wards, support items, and synergistic hero picks where you're stuck with a couple Brazilians who demand bot lane solo as SA or BH, you'll have no choice but to improve your game if you ever want to win with consistency.
 
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