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[Stahsky]

I only ever get Vanguard on someone who needs a quick way to tank up, like Undying, Slardar, or maybe Axe. But even then, I don't find myself using it too much anymore at all.


Is there a point in putting vanguard on batrider? I see it a lot, but I'm not too sure if it truly serves any purpose.

 

[JustinBB7]

Is there a point in putting vanguard on batrider? I see it a lot, but I'm not too sure if it truly serves any purpose.

No there's not.

 

[homeworkfilms]

Drow is just too good right now. I have played 4 games with her in the last couple of days and she autofarms as of level 6. Mid or side lane it hasn't mattered. I just start accelerating at that point and destroy pub teams. It is nice to have easy wins but it is sad that my love for other characters starts to take a back seat to that much potential power.

 

[Des0lar]

No reason to build vanguard on ranged. Especially supports.
If you need health as a support, get mek.
If you need survivability and health reg, get a hood, which builds nicely into a pipe.

 

[Tenck]

Synderen and Puppey said vanguard is one of the worst items in the game these days, especially on ranged heroes. Also the fact that you can't disassemble it to make a heart later really hurts it. Also you say you recommend it if you're only going to farm, and then you talk about tower diving haha.

You can easily go head to head with someone, behind their own tower, and still walk away like nothing even happened as Venomancer. Loki Demi proved how terrifying Veno is at the IHL. I believe he even went Vanguard, so that should tell you how good it is.

And I wouldn't trust anything Puppey says. Nxy anyone?!?!?!!?


I kid I kid.

Edit:

No reason to build vanguard on ranged. Especially supports.
If you need health as a support, get mek.
If you need survivability and health reg, get a hood, which builds nicely into a pipe.

Veno is not a support character. People need to get this through their heads. He's one of, if not, the strongest early to mid game heroes. Yes he can be played as support, but that doesn't make him a support. I can play AM as a support by going Tranquil boots and harass the enemy team. Does that make him a support?

 

[Haly]

Arcane, Mek, Pipe, Aghanim, depending on what your team needs.

If you're going to play carry veno then just do whatever. Go Skadi for all it matters. Vangaurd is silly though. There are very few carries you should actually get Vangaurd on because it delays your damage too much, and without damage you are useless. No one cares if the carry is tanky if they can't dish out any damage, the only exceptions to this are weird tanky carries like Spec.

 

[Drkirby]

Veno is not a support character. People need to get this through their heads. He's one of, if not, the strongest early to mid game heroes. Yes he can be played as support, but that doesn't make him a support. I can play AM as a support by going Tranquil boots and harass the enemy team. Does that make him a support?

Yes he is, the thing that makes support characters support is that they wreck face without farm. His abilities do not scale with extra damage or attack speed, and he does not need expensive items to be effective in a fight.

 

[bzm]

You can easily go head to head with someone, behind their own tower, and still walk away like nothing even happened as Venomancer. Loki Demi proved how terrifying Veno is at the IHL. I believe he even went Vanguard, so that should tell you how good it is.

And I wouldn't trust anything Puppey says. Nxy anyone?!?!?!!?


I kid I kid.

Edit:

Veno is not a support character. People need to get this through their heads. He's one of, if not, the strongest early to mid game heroes. Yes he can be played as support, but that doesn't make him a support. I can play AM as a support by going Tranquil boots and harass the enemy team. Does that make him a support?

Two things: 1) Loki gets it on veno because he plays veno more aggressive than you dotanerds know how to handle ;p
2) That's a really weak comparison to draw. Veno makes a much better support than am, and is pretty much the strongest level 1 hero which makes him great for trilanes. None of his skills scale with items, either. That's not to say that he isn't great with items, but he functions incredibly well on not much more than boots and sentry wards.

Arcane, Mek, Pipe, Aghanim, depending on what your team needs.

If you're going to play carry veno then just do whatever. Go Skadi for all it matters. Vangaurd is silly though. There are very few carries you should actually get Vangaurd on because it delays your damage too much, and without damage you are useless. No one cares if the carry is tanky if they can't dish out any damage, the only exceptions to this are weird tanky carries like Spec.

I see you enjoyed that game milk and I played earlier.
That aside, I disagree. Plenty of melee carries benefit from vanguard since it helps them not feed like cray. It was 'core' on am not all that long ago, its great on pa, its okay on doom/alch/slar (though I'm not a fan of it myself), decent for sb, ck, razor, naga, viper and spectre(durr).

 

[Tenck]

Yes he is, the thing that makes support characters support is that they wreck face without farm. His abilities do not scale with extra damage or attack speed, and he does not need expensive items to be effective in a fight.

Heroes that don't need items to kill.

Zeus, Lina, Tiny, and Bane. Would you classify them as Support too?

Edit:

Two things: 1) Loki gets it on veno because he plays veno more aggressive than you dotanerds know how to handle ;p

Which is something that would be a welcomed changed.

 

[bzm]

Heroes that don't need items to kill.

Zeus, Lina, Tiny, and Bane. Would you classify them as Support too?

u wot m8?
Tiny needs that farm.
And yes lina and bane can most certainly be support.
I just
what

 

[Tenck]

u wot m8?
Tiny needs that farm.
And yes lina and bane can most certainly be support.
I just
what

Tiny can wreck with just blink. Agh and other AS items are icing on the cake.

"Can" and "are" are two different words. They can be supports, but aren't tied to that role.

 

[SamVimes]

Heroes that don't need items to kill.

Zeus, Lina, Tiny, and Bane. Would you classify them as Support too?

Edit:

Which is something that would be a welcomed changed.

Tiny gets significantly better with farm, the other 3 are supports.

Tiny can wreck with just blink. Agh and other AS items are icing on the cake.

What no. Past 20 minutes he's not gonna solo kill anyone except squishy supports with a blink. With Aghs and attack speed is one of the strongest lategame heroes in the game.

 

[Haly]

That aside, I disagree. Plenty of melee carries benefit from vanguard since it helps them not feed like cray. It was 'core' on am not all that long ago, its great on pa, its okay on doom/alch/slar (though I'm not a fan of it myself), decent for sb, ck, razor, naga, viper and spectre(durr).

For STR heroes, i prefer the infinitely more flexible Armlet. Agreed on Naga, Razor and Viper though, they were the exceptions I had in mind.

And Weaver to a lesser extent but he's trash.

Zeus is NOT a real support and should not be played as such. Zeus as support makes as much a sense as Krob or Necro support. Can they do it? Yes. Should they? No.

 

[bzm]

Tiny can wreck with just blink. Agh and other AS items are icing on the cake.

Theres not that big of a window where he can kill with 'just blink'. His spells dont scale into the lategame at all.

 

[Wes]

But Sanjay told me always to build Vanguard on Veno.

 

[Haly]

But Sanjay told me always to build Vanguard on Veno.

Sanjay also tells you to build Skadi on drow, though.

 

[bzm]

Sanjay also tells you to build Skadi on drow, though.

i saw h4nn1 do it once

 

[Haly]

i saw h4nn1 do it once

Legit confirmed.

 

[Ikuu]

Veno is not a support character. People need to get this through their heads. He's one of, if not, the strongest early to mid game heroes. Yes he can be played as support, but that doesn't make him a support. I can play AM as a support by going Tranquil boots and harass the enemy team. Does that make him a support?

And that's why he is played as a support.

 

[F!ReW!Re]

So people don't go vanguard on Kunkka but go straight for shadow blade or Daedalus?

 

[bzm]

So people don't go vanguard on Kunkka but go straight for shadow blade or Daedalus?

vanguard is fine on kunkka

 

[Haly]

vanguard is fine on kunkka

I feel like getting vanguard on kunk is basically admitting "I lost my lane and I have no farm now I have to put all my money into just staying alive."

 

[F!ReW!Re]

vanguard is fine on kunkka

Just wondering since the last two pages was full of vanguard discussion without mention of the king of booty!

I feel like getting vanguard on kunk is basically admitting "I lost my lane and I have no farm now I have to put all my money into just staying alive."

I always kinda felt he needs the tankyness to walk into team fights and just keep hammering on people with tidebringer and I prefer going for a daedalus after that instead of the shadow blade.

 

[bzm]

I feel like getting vanguard on kunk is basically admitting "I lost my lane and I have no farm now I have to put all my money into just staying alive."

Not really.
Vanguard lets you play more aggressive than you normally would, for someone with a pretty decent early/midgame skillset like kunkka (not to mention lack of an escape mechanism) its a solid choice. Plus it makes jungling easier.

 

[Pureauthor]

Vanguard is usable on Night Stalker since he can use the damage block when tower-diving.

But an Urn goes a long way towards mitigating that anyway, and it's a lot cheaper...

 

[Sgt.Pepper]

About Night Stalker...Desolator should be a core on the guy. Holy shit, it is amazing on him.

 

[ksan]

PPY casting VP vs. Pulse

 

[Riverfield]

About Night Stalker...Desolator should be a core on the guy. Holy shit, it is amazing on him.

If I can afford a deso as a core item on NS I am probably so fed that I could build whatever the hell I want and still win or I'm spending way too much time farming. BKB and often Aghs are almost always more important to get than a luxury damage item like Deso, and if I really want one I'd rather get the 1500 gold cheaper Armlet.

 

[Zzoram]

I always just buy the recommended Early Game and Core items then grab 1 or 2 Situation Items by the time the game is over.

Is that ok? Are there any obviously wrong/broken recommended items?

 

[dave is ok]

I always just buy the recommended Early Game and Core items then grab 1 or 2 Situation Items by the time the game is over.

Is that ok? Are there any obviously wrong/broken recommended items?

Never buy BKB.

 

[Zzoram]

Never buy BKB.

I sometimes do but forget to use it

It seems strong for some heroes. Particularly Huskar and Phantom Assassin.

 

[dave is ok]

I sometimes do but forget to use it

It seems strong for some heroes. Particularly Huskar and Phantom Assassin.

It's a great item. I'm just fucking with you.

 

[Procarbine]

I don't mind vgaurd on almost any melee hero if you can get it fast and want to play downhill/aggressive. 6 min vgaurd is pretty insane if you want to go nuts on people, it lets you get in there and use your skills.

 

[Riverfield]

I always just buy the recommended Early Game and Core items then grab 1 or 2 Situation Items by the time the game is over.

Is that ok? Are there any obviously wrong/broken recommended items?

Off the top of my head, you probably don't want to get Battlefury as a first big item on Bounty Hunter. Unless in weird circumstances, you want to be killing people instead of farming, and Battlefury is ironically not for battling, but a full on farming item. Your ult gives you and your team money for killing people, so kill people and buy items for killing people. There is however the possibility you want to get it later game if your team doesn't have the AoE damage to deal with a hero with a bunch of illusions like Phantom Lancer.

The other one is if mek or pipe is recommended, check to see if your team is already building a mek or pipe. Multiple meks or multiple pipes don't stack so it'd be a waste to have more than one of each.

 

[Technosteve]

Carry Tide Build => blink dagger => refresher orb

 

[Haly]

Carry Tide Build => blink dagger => refresher orb

That's not carry tide.

This is carry tide.

 

[Technosteve]

Well that's one way to farm creeps, 4 battlefuries

 

[Zzoram]

Magnus seems great going for Battle Fury first since his charge and his ulti both clump up and stun enemy heroes. Battle Fury lets him then kill them all at once.



How do Battle Furies stack, if they do at all? How does Evasion and Critical Hit stack? Is there a maximum value of certain stats that can't be stacked higher?

 

[xero273]

Magnus seems great going for Battle Fury first since his charge and his ulti both clump up and stun enemy heroes. Battle Fury lets him then kill them all at once.



How do Battle Furies stack, if they do at all? How does Evasion and Critical Hit stack? Is there a maximum value of certain stats that can't be stacked higher?

From what I read, it stacks in a sense that each battle fury will do cleave dmg

Also, it's wednesday.. let's start the update hype train!

/disappointment

 

[Haly]

How do Battle Furies stack, if they do at all? How does Evasion and Critical Hit stack? Is there a maximum value of certain stats that can't be stacked higher?

Battlefury: Each Battlefury does its own 30% splash damage, without any interaction with other Battlefuries. One weird result of this is that if you have 6 Battlefuries on Sven, you will do 100% damage to your main target but 280% in splash damage.

Evasion: Does not stack, the game will choose the evasion source with the highest probability.

Critical: Stacks with diminishing returns. Every time you attack, the game will attempt to make it a critical for each critical passive your hero has from items or skills. For example, with two Daedeluses, your attacks will have a 25% (from Daedelus 1) + 25% * 75% (from Daedelus 2 if Daedelus 1 doesn't trigger) chance to critical.

 

[Zzoram]

From what I read, it stacks in a sense that each battle fury will do cleave dmg

Also, it's wednesday.. let's start the update hype train!

/disappointment

Battle Fury gives you 35% of your physical attack as cleave damage. If you get 3 of them, would you do 105% of your attack as cleave damage? So the enemy you splash damage will get hurt more than your target?

 

[Zzoram]

Battlefury: Each Battlefury does its own 30% splash damage, without any interaction with other Battlefuries. One weird result of this is that if you have 6 Battlefuries on Sven, you will do 100% damage to your main target but 280% in splash damage.

Evasion: Does not stack, the game will choose the evasion source with the highest probability.

Critical: Stacks with diminishing returns. Every time you attack, the game will attempt to make it a critical for each critical passive your hero has from items or skills. For example, with two Daedeluses, your attacks will have a 25% (from Daedelus 1) + 25% * 75% (from Daedelus 2 if Daedelus 1 doesn't trigger) chance to critical.

Thanks. That's what I wanted to know. That means it's not worth getting more than 1 source of Evasion.

So Cleave is better to stack than Critical because it scales better?

 

[Haly]

You don't stack cleave at all, unless you're being silly. It's rarely worth it, because it requires people to bunch up. Single target DPS is still the main goal of the carry, barring certain exceptions like Sven, Gyro, Medusa or any melee hero paired with Magnus.

 

[Zzoram]

You don't stack cleave at all, unless you're being silly. It's rarely worth it, because it requires people to bunch up. Single target DPS is still the main goal of the carry, barring certain exceptions like Sven, Gyro, Medusa or any melee hero paired with Magnus.

I really enjoy taking 1 swipe and killing a whole wave of creeps though. It's so satisfying. Cleave seems to make you farm gold way fast because of this so maybe it's good to get early because it helps you get to other good items faster.

I think Cleave is good against Naga Siren, Phantom Lancer, and Chaos Knight to cut through all the Illusions quickly. Cleave is also good against Brewmaster for his triple split ultimate. Cleave is good on Magnus or paired with Magnus as you said. Cleave is good on a melee paired with Enigma too.

Question: Does Cleave work for ranged attacks? How does it work for Gyro when he does his E attack that hits multiple targets?

 

[Volodja]

I really enjoy taking 1 swipe and killing a whole wave of creeps though. It's so satisfying. Cleave seems to make you farm gold way fast because of this so maybe it's good to get early because it helps you get to other good items faster.

I think Cleave is good against Naga Siren, Phantom Lancer, and Chaos Knight to cut through all the Illusions quickly. Cleave is also good against Brewmaster for his triple split ultimate. Cleave is good on Magnus or paired with Magnus as you said. Cleave is good on a melee paired with Enigma too.

Question: Does Cleave work for ranged attacks? How does it work for Gyro when he does his E attack that hits multiple targets?

Cleave doesn't work on ranged attacks.

Off the top of my head, you probably don't want to get Battlefury as a first big item on Bounty Hunter. Unless in weird circumstances, you want to be killing people instead of farming, and Battlefury is ironically not for battling, but a full on farming item. Your ult gives you and your team money for killing people, so kill people and buy items for killing people. There is however the possibility you want to get it later game if your team doesn't have the AoE damage to deal with a hero with a bunch of illusions like Phantom Lancer.

The other one is if mek or pipe is recommended, check to see if your team is already building a mek or pipe. Multiple meks or multiple pipes don't stack so it'd be a waste to have more than one of each.

When I play Bh I always consider Bfury to be an option mainly for the combination of regen and damage it has, with the splash being just icing on the cake, aside from specific cases.
I never really end up building it on him, though.

 

[Zzoram]

How do you watch a downloaded Dota2 replay if you get it off dotabuff?

 

[1.09]

no plz don't get battlefury on bh lol ogod my sides. phase drums shadow blade deso mkb even vlads are way better buys on that hero.

 

[wakajawaka]

How do you watch a downloaded Dota2 replay if you get it off dotabuff?

You are supposied to just unzip it and double click, but sometimes it does not work, I dunno why.

 

[Des0lar]

One thing to note is that Faceless Void's backtrack STACKS with Evasion! That's why butterfly is a late game luxury on him.

The reason for that is that his backtrack is another form of evasion since you can evade spells as well.

 

[Volodja]

no plz don't get battlefury on bh lol ogod my sides. phase drums shadow blade deso mkb even vlads are way better buys on that hero.

Phase, drums, deso, bkb is what I do every time.
I tried the shadow blade build one time only, but the game was already decided so it wasn't much of a benchmark for me.