SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
That would certainly explain the extreme femininity in the other pictures. I'm dumb.
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Dragon Ball Super |OT| 28 Episodes Later
- Thread starter Snaku
- Start date
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Welfare
Member
Had to check out during the part where they try to say that those fan made post SSJ4 designs look better than SSJG and SSJB and that's what the fans were wanting.
That was not the point of those forms, they are not a continuation of SSJ, and SSJ4 isn't even Toriyama's creation. In the manga, SSJ forms was just a hair color change. Red and blue hair makes more sense than bulkier muscles and even MORE hair.
BladeoftheImmortal
Member
I love goku and vegeta's new uniforms. I think they should change every arc like they used to.
Dark_castle
Junior Member
Great writeup.
When DBS shows the few clips from past scene with the older art style and hand-drawn design, it looked so much better than the clean, shiny look of the current version.
Linkstrikesback
Member
No they don't. They're both complete arbitrary nonsense.
The Silver
Member
yep, every single one of the transformations are arbitrary bullshit.
still I like red and blue 100x more than any of that crazy ass fanart the guy posted.
ArtHands
Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
I will much prefer current design over his suggestions.
The alternate designs he asked for, are basically more muscles, longer and spiker hair, missing iris/eyebrow hair and bright mismatching colors. But that's not really what the series has been portraying. Even Goku has already explained during the Cell saga. Bulkier & muscular =/= better.
Thank god he's not in charge.
Great writeup.
When DBS shows the few clips from past scene with the older art style and hand-drawn design, it looked so much better than the clean, shiny look of the current version.
Yep. There's no contest. Hand drawn >>>>>>>>>> digital.
NeonZ
Member
Well, they're arbitrary nonsense following the design type of SSJ - new aura type, hair color change, rather than a completely divergent path.
In fact, we know that before Toriyama became heavily involved with the original Battle of Gods, Toei's staff was pushing for a completely different transformation that would give Goku a new outfit alongside it, while Toriyama went against that wanting to keep the design simple, and so we got the red haired Super Saiyan God.
In some ways, it sounds more and more like a large part of the fanbase posting online would be happier with Toei's original ideas over Toriyama's modern work. Still, considering how the Toriyama produced material so far has gotten good commercial results, and he doesn't need to get involved directly as much as before, he probably will continue driving the franchise for a while.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Is Super Saiyan Blue a Toei thing? Don't see Toriyama mention it ever, it's given a single line of dialogue in the movie, it's still ambiguous as can be, and Toei likes money
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
Catched up with the last episode and despite the screen caps, it wasn't 'that' bad. Inconsistent as shit, but doable aside from that Vegeta flopping arm bit.
I think toriyama has the better idea in terms of 'transformations' too. All they are supposed to be is ki manipulation to gain a power boost. Excessive changes in the form should not really be a part of that since they can go on forever (see Freeza's three transformations originally) without any fictional rule to control them.
Super saiyan 4 wasn't much fun in GT because there wasn't a clear "get to X > release!" kind of rule. Rather, old kai just knew about it (that prick!) somehow and when first achieved it was simply always doable, despite requiring the ozaru base. Which just made no sense and rejected naturally building tension as the power of it would have been hard to get to. More like a spirit bomb mechanic than a simple super saiyan transformation. The ozaru base thing makes sense, but how they used the SSJ4 state didn't make a lick of sense.
One cute change this last episode made was showing SSB as an extension / new level of the regular transformation, something that was missing in the RoF movie.This way the ki rule is maintained without breaking it into branching paths like GT and the movies did. RoF made it unclear whether 'blue' was a branch or extension after all.
I do feel that people here ( 'fans' ) underestimate AT's writing instincts a lot. He has good instincts on "what to do next", in my opinion. Most writers, particularly in comics and video games where the sky isn't even remotely a limit, have no such restraints and write themselves into an impossible corner on the first day, leading to equally impossible manoeuvres to resolve it, and a disappointment in between. That said, a lot of those are dependent on good editing too, as the android saga demonstrated (and holy balls was that a good thing. Can you imagine 19 and 20 being the real androids for the entire thing? Fuck me with hypothetical erections, I can't).
I think toriyama has the better idea in terms of 'transformations' too. All they are supposed to be is ki manipulation to gain a power boost. Excessive changes in the form should not really be a part of that since they can go on forever (see Freeza's three transformations originally) without any fictional rule to control them.
Super saiyan 4 wasn't much fun in GT because there wasn't a clear "get to X > release!" kind of rule. Rather, old kai just knew about it (that prick!) somehow and when first achieved it was simply always doable, despite requiring the ozaru base. Which just made no sense and rejected naturally building tension as the power of it would have been hard to get to. More like a spirit bomb mechanic than a simple super saiyan transformation. The ozaru base thing makes sense, but how they used the SSJ4 state didn't make a lick of sense.
One cute change this last episode made was showing SSB as an extension / new level of the regular transformation, something that was missing in the RoF movie.This way the ki rule is maintained without breaking it into branching paths like GT and the movies did. RoF made it unclear whether 'blue' was a branch or extension after all.
I do feel that people here ( 'fans' ) underestimate AT's writing instincts a lot. He has good instincts on "what to do next", in my opinion. Most writers, particularly in comics and video games where the sky isn't even remotely a limit, have no such restraints and write themselves into an impossible corner on the first day, leading to equally impossible manoeuvres to resolve it, and a disappointment in between. That said, a lot of those are dependent on good editing too, as the android saga demonstrated (and holy balls was that a good thing. Can you imagine 19 and 20 being the real androids for the entire thing? Fuck me with hypothetical erections, I can't).
NeonZ
Member
Sometimes I wonder... Even in Toriyama's published designer notes for RoF, the form's name is never mentioned aside from the title of the page. Otherwise, it's always just "Super Saiyan". I don't think we've got any interview about its creation or anything though, so there's no actual confirmation, even though some of the elements surrounding its introduction are pretty odd.
Huh? That was in the movie. They just changed the wording slightly to make it sound more like a power up.
(RoF)
"This is Super Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God!"
Vs
(Super)
"This is Super Saiyan of a Saiyan who reached the power of Super Saiyan God!"
The original wording was ambiguous, and could even make it seem like the new form was just as strong as Super Saiyan God, but with the new explanation it now sounds like their Base is god level and the new form is a consequence of that.
Considering he was heavily involved in the movie, I'm pretty sure it's a Toriyama thing. If anything's up for debate, it's what we're seeing in Super.
One thing I agree on with that guy is his dislike for any iteration of the SSJG transformation.
I think he brought up the fanart to point out that he wanted a blonde/black/brown/natural hair color involved in a new transformation in lieu of the red/blue. Also I think he pointed out what I've always disliked about Super, the art style making everyone very slender, and seemingly a little smaller, and less threatening?
I think he brought up the fanart to point out that he wanted a blonde/black/brown/natural hair color involved in a new transformation in lieu of the red/blue. Also I think he pointed out what I've always disliked about Super, the art style making everyone very slender, and seemingly a little smaller, and less threatening?
NeonZ
Member
Obviously he agreed to go with it at some point, but it's kind of odd how the transformation isn't named or even explicitly mentioned by his script.
Unlike in this Super episode, no one even commented on Goku's appearance change in the movie. Even Freeza, after Goku transforms, just says "So, it was Super Saiyan, after all" (the American dub changed it to a comment about it being Super Saiyan with dyed hair, but the hair colors bit wasn't there in the original track). If he was originally just meant to fight with the original blond haired Super Saiyan, just boosted by God Ki, like against Beerus, the script wouldn't even need to be changed.
The big thing I hate about SSJB is the complete lack of build-up to it. It comes off as extremely boring when contrasted to other big power ups in the series - Goku going SSJ for the first time, Gohan reaching SSJ2, etc. The god stuff is just really lazy and lacks any real tension or urgency in my opinion.
I haven't watched the new episode but I can only assume the transformation is similar to the movies which is really disappointing. The build up in Super seemed like neither Vegeta or Goku had even gone SSB yet so I was hoping their first transformation would be in response to a struggle like all the big transformations in Z. But alas, it seems like it isn't.
Ideally, I'd have wanted Goku to be beating Frieza easily which prompts Frieza to transform. Gold Frieza whoops Goku until he finally unleashes SSB. He gets defeated because of his overconfidence and then Frieza almost kills Bulma forcing Vegeta to turn SSB with him ultimately killing Frieza. Something along those lines.
The only big transformation that wasn't in response to a struggle that happened in Z was SSJ3 but even then, the tension was there because it drained all of Goku's time on Earth and the build up was like 5 minutes long because clearly Goku hadn't mastered the form yet.
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
This is my problem with it, too. Even when Vegeta achieved SS1 off screen in the Android arc it had a sense of gravitas to it, like he was making a grand entrance to show off his new ability. The way he explained training to surpass Goku, reaching his wit's end, and then how he proceeded to absolutely obliterate 19 was the perfect one-two punch to let us know that he was dead serious about his training. SSB comes completely out of nowhere, we don't get more than an off-hand comment about how Goku and Vegeta acheived it, and Vegeta attaining God ki iin the first place is still vague as all hell. The form is achieved with absolutely no punch to it at all, and then to top it off it doesn't do anything special beyond change the color of their hair. Because we didn't see any struggle to obtain it, or its initial transformation, and also because it doesn't unlock any new techniques, it feels completely arbitrary, like they decided to switch up SS and Fourth Form Freeza's colors and call it a day. I thought Super's adaptation of Revival of F might elaborate on the form, but it didn't. All it did was
kill Piccolo.
It's not the tools, but the budget.
They need to stop being cheap and start paying more.
Jason's Ultimatum
Member
Great writeup.
When DBS shows the few clips from past scene with the older art style and hand-drawn design, it looked so much better than the clean, shiny look of the current version.
Good lord I miss this. The new art just looks awful, man. Bunch of jobbers.
It's not necessarily the budget, either. Could be the animators are overworked and just can't keep up. Could also be the budget, though!
But yes, digital is not to blame for this. Ridiculous to insinuate good art can't come from digital tools.
They're ugly, but Vegeta's mosty. The blue they're using now looks too drab.
Neither are good, funny enough.
KidA Seven
Member
that shit isn't great
but it's better than what toei gave us
most shitty deviant art dbz fan art is better than what toei gave us
dragon ball af fan art from the late 90s is better than what toei gave us
toei/new toriyama is creatively bankrupt from a design perspective. even shitty dbaf fan art is more interesting than... "he has red hair now!" or "ok, he has blue hair now!"
There is absolutely nothing wrong with that for me. The DB franchise is at its best when it keeps stuff simple, especially with transformation. Mystic Gohan almost looks the same as normal Gohan but I really love that transformation.
The problem is that these transformations just don't have the same struggle/emotional weight they had to them in DBZ.
99% of fan made stuff is usually convoluted bullshit that looks awful.
KidA Seven
Member
Wait a minute. What Toei gave us was shit quality. I think that's what everyone is complaining about. The fan arts are just ass designs. There's a difference.
To actually prefer the fan art designs
Sibersk Esto
Banned
I wonder how super saiyan god's design can be called lazy when it's already been said the original design was supposed to be more convoluted until Toriyama came in and clearly make it look like regular Goku, and especially make him skinnier.
It totally does though
It totally does though
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
I remember Toriyama speaking about SSG and specifically mentioning the slimming down. Which kind of fits in with most things dragon ball where the more reserved looking people are stronger. He was going to have a stupid fucking cape in an earlier design of SSG.
It's funny how SSB just ignores that slimming down part about Super Saiyan God, seems more thank likely to me that they just made it just cause $
Like it seemed for BOG Toriyama came in when there was already the established idea of SSG and changed things there where as ROF it seems like Toriyama had things set in place then they said wait we could make more money
It's funny how SSB just ignores that slimming down part about Super Saiyan God, seems more thank likely to me that they just made it just cause $
Like it seemed for BOG Toriyama came in when there was already the established idea of SSG and changed things there where as ROF it seems like Toriyama had things set in place then they said wait we could make more money
Yes! Even Future Trunks who showed up and shocked everyone with his initial appearance and both Vegeta and his struggle to reach something beyond SSJ.
SSJG and SSJB just seem like lazy phone-ins to grab merchandise sales and dazzle people who don't care about depth.
While SSG and SSB have grown on me and I know love the concepts, I can definitely see why some people either don't like them or feel disappointed. I mean, I am disappointed too in the sense that I thought in the show we'd see in some detail the kind of special training Goku and Vegeta had to go through in order to obtain such power, but that never happened, so yeah... Hopefully a future episode explains it or something, because so far that's the only disappointment (a big one) for me.
LordOfChaos
Member
What are you talking about? We totally saw it! To become gods they put on some heavy weights and walk...Oh. Oh yeah. *sigh*.
KidA Seven
Member
That's a total Dragonball thing though.
I think my only disappointment with SSJ God now is that it doesn't seem like we'll be seeing it again; Goku and Vegeta have already surpassed it, and that specific appearance could only be unlocked in special conditions.
Seems a bit weird to come up with this new transformation and then never show it again.
Seems a bit weird to come up with this new transformation and then never show it again.
Linkstrikesback
Member
I mean, it is dragonball.
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
I think a lot of people fell in love with Dragon Ball for what it isn't. To start the series with Raditz and its more heavy handed story arcs that follow kind of gives you the wrong impression on how lighthearted it is at its core. On that note, there is something to be said for wanting a certain amount of depth, something to draw you in and keep you interested beyond the surface level, even in a battle shonen series like Dragon Ball. Again, compare Vegeta's SS1 reveal with his SSB reveal. One feels authentic and earned, and is a spectacle both in the way it's written and in its razzle dazzle appeal. Is it kind of cheesy and maybe even a bit shallow? Yeah, Dragon Ball is all about simple entertainment. But Super feels vapid in many ways, and using Dragon Ball's simple design philosophy as a crutch to excuse that is an inherently flawed argument. SSB is all razzle dazzle and no substance.
The Silver
Member
SSB really wouldn't be anything that special to Goku and Vegeta though. SSB is literally just turning normal ass Super Saiyan except now they've mastered god ki.
The initial god transformation/mastery should've been a lot more special though.
The initial god transformation/mastery should've been a lot more special though.
Put me in the camp that prefers Goku and Vegeta looking like Goku and Vegeta instead of turning into 90's Xtreme Mutant Monkey Men, or More Hair.
Personally I was hoping the Godly Ki thing would be a way of negating the need for constant transformations but I guess that would be bad for toy sales
Personally I was hoping the Godly Ki thing would be a way of negating the need for constant transformations but I guess that would be bad for toy sales
Loved how SSJ4 referenced the monkey-like nature of the Saiyans.
Ultra Numb
Member
Yeah, SSJB is just normal Super Saiyan but with God-Ki. No wonder it doesn't look that different.
Dark_castle
Junior Member
SSJ4's transformation sequence was glorious.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
I liked SSJ3's episode and a half of screaming
How are you reppin' Dwayne but knocking the importance of prep time. Shame.
And it actually made sense.
You can blame SSJ3 for that. Now THAT was a terrible transformation.
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