I thought that too, but then Beerus wouldn't really care if he had to go last or not.
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Dragon Ball Super |OT2| June 12: Judgment Day
- Thread starter ArchedThunder
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I thought that too, but then Beerus wouldn't really care if he had to go last or not.
Yankee Ruin X
Member
True but if Monoko could create a form with Beerus's power then maybe that's why Beerus doesn't want to use it unless absolutely essential.
LordOfChaos
Member
I thought his defensiveness and Whis's commentary was fairly clearly pointing at Monaka being a nobody. Both showing his confidence in V&G, and keeping them from getting too cocky as they may have if he said they were the best in the universe.
He probably also wants to leave it to the end to go "haha, I beat you while deliberately picking such a scrub".
OR, it could be he found out that the last time Monaka beat him was through some sort of gimmick, and is now embarrassed about it.
Kyleripman
Member
See I don't find Vegeta's threat credible...like yeah, he's a lot stronger, but what is going to do, attack Piccolo in the middle of the tournament? I think there is meant to be something else at play (or should have been).
Was the final showdown between Bardock/Sayians vs. Freeza filler?
Serious question, because it didn't make any sense to me after watching the whole Namek thing.
Unspeakable Evil
Member
I am disappointed that Gohan is missing a tournament where a lot of the characters are using quick thinking & strategies to be their opponents. Gohan never gets to use his brain during his fights.
NeonZ
Member
That moment was the one scene made by the anime team that Toriyama actually referenced in the original manga - when Freeza meets Goku he remembers Bardock, even in the manga we're then shown the shot where he's seemingly floating in space alongside many Freeza soldiers (although somehow it's just meant to be upper atmosphere, officially).
How you explain it makes sense, but damn lol. You think there would be some context placed in the actual anime.
This episode just came and went lol. Didn't really enjoy it that much, even though the quality was better than usual, but I feel like the Magetta fight lacked some impact, plus the animation for the fights isn't really that good. Here's hoping next episode improves.
Also, I'm gonna go with Monaka being a nobody (well, almost, since he took a straight punch to the face from Goku like a champ).
Also, I'm gonna go with Monaka being a nobody (well, almost, since he took a straight punch to the face from Goku like a champ).
I dunno about you guys, but I'm at the point where I'm just hate-watching the series now. Shit is just so dumb.
Goku's prominence is the least of Super's problems. As the series continues to unfold, it seems to be getting progressively worse with each episode. Every plot device seems randomly cobbled together. There's very little, if any, logic or reason involved.
What bugged me was that he seemed way more pissed off as Universe 6's Freeza than his own Freeza when he fought him on Earth. He treated him (Freeza) as if he was just a minor annoyance rather than the guy who killed his father as well as himself. You'd think he'd be more ticked off when he battled him again.
Goku's prominence is the least of Super's problems. As the series continues to unfold, it seems to be getting progressively worse with each episode. Every plot device seems randomly cobbled together. There's very little, if any, logic or reason involved.
What bugged me was that he seemed way more pissed off as Universe 6's Freeza than his own Freeza when he fought him on Earth. He treated him (Freeza) as if he was just a minor annoyance rather than the guy who killed his father as well as himself. You'd think he'd be more ticked off when he battled him again.
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
So eh, Hit can breathe in space too? It was fun to see Vados care though. All that two week speculation, and nothing. Haha.
Framing was good too (particularly at the start, though there was a weird 'clearly a freelancer' shot with frost in perspective), with the way they moved swiftly from the announcer to the god twins and other things. Every Beerus frame was gold, imo.
Fun episode, and it seems this tournament isn't just a sideshow either.
Framing was good too (particularly at the start, though there was a weird 'clearly a freelancer' shot with frost in perspective), with the way they moved swiftly from the announcer to the god twins and other things. Every Beerus frame was gold, imo.
Fun episode, and it seems this tournament isn't just a sideshow either.
Luckily the Universe 6 guys have been interesting so far... except maybe Frost I guess.
I am starting to think DBS will be all sideshows.
I don't think we will ever go back to the several dozens/hundreds of episodes for an arc.
ArchedThunder
Banned
I don't see how the writing is awful just because Piccolo got short changed and there is still a focus on the main character of the series...
Piccolo getting fucked over was kinda the point, Frost wins by cheating thus making the viewer hate him, Vegeta comes in to demonstrate just how much more powerful he is than Frost. Even if Piccolo stayed in and Frost was disqualified he'd just immediately get destroyed by Magetta anyways. Piccolo had a good showing against Frost and I'm happy about that. Piccolo was in over his head in the tournament and now he gets to step out without a real loss. Piccolo was only even in the tournament because they didn't really have anyone else to bring with them.
I'm loving the plot so far and I'm excited to see if any of these new characters join the main cast.
The first two arcs were just retellings of movies and the current one looks like it's meant to be a stepping stone for future stuff.
Piccolo getting fucked over was kinda the point, Frost wins by cheating thus making the viewer hate him, Vegeta comes in to demonstrate just how much more powerful he is than Frost. Even if Piccolo stayed in and Frost was disqualified he'd just immediately get destroyed by Magetta anyways. Piccolo had a good showing against Frost and I'm happy about that. Piccolo was in over his head in the tournament and now he gets to step out without a real loss. Piccolo was only even in the tournament because they didn't really have anyone else to bring with them.
I'm loving the plot so far and I'm excited to see if any of these new characters join the main cast.
The first two arcs were just retellings of movies and the current one looks like it's meant to be a stepping stone for future stuff.
Welfare
Member
If there is one thing I can give Super, it's the pacing. Just great.
Piccolo does not belong in this tournament. He couldn't even get off his SBC and Frost was not going to fall for it twice. If Piccolo was brought in again, we'd have till next week to get to Magetta. No thank you.
Piccolo does not belong in this tournament. He couldn't even get off his SBC and Frost was not going to fall for it twice. If Piccolo was brought in again, we'd have till next week to get to Magetta. No thank you.
Eh, they're fluctuating between Freeza era "5 minute" fights and actual 5 minute fights. Is it too much to ask for a nice middle ground?
Piccolo wouldn't have fought him again. Frost was disqualified til Vegeta wanted to fight him.
GuessMyUserName
Member
Piccolo won the match though.
Frost was out. Vegeta just demanded Frost to be brought back in (and for Piccolo to forfeit the tournament) just so he could beat him up.
If Vegeta didn't open his mouth this entire episode would've been Piccolo vs Magetta instead of wasting time on the pointless 3rd Frost match.
I enjoyed the art of the episode, like most people say. And it was nice to have Vegeta get in there and fight.
But one thing that's bothering me is that it seems like Goku and Vegeta are getting progressively stupider. I understand the point of hiding their powers, but it almost feels like they are making rookie mistakes, like all of their years of fighting have gone out the window.
This whole episode I was simply thinking "dammit Vegeta, just power up and get it the fuck over with." If this was Vegeta from Z, he would have already had that stupid robot on the ground and in pieces.
I understand that they want to break away from the whole endless power leveling that went on in Z, but it just feels like they are prolonging the inevitable by stupid plot devices.
I do think that the design of the robot is pretty cool, and his attacks and animations are nice, in a more positive note. Next episode does look like it gets more to the point.
EDIT: Personally, I was also hoping that Vegeta would give in to his darker nature and just pulverize the shit out of Frost. Unfortunately, all we got was a punch. I really wanted him to go back to his Majin Vegeta phase, even if just for a second. I mean, they had a great moment: Vegeta was robbed in his fight with Frieza, who had destroyed his home planet and made his father look like shit. Here we had the chance for some interesting character development, for Vegeta to get some enjoyment out of beating the shit out of someone who looked like Frieza, but they decided to go the easy route. I suppose it would fit his 'new' character, but I was left a little disappointed about that buildup.
But one thing that's bothering me is that it seems like Goku and Vegeta are getting progressively stupider. I understand the point of hiding their powers, but it almost feels like they are making rookie mistakes, like all of their years of fighting have gone out the window.
This whole episode I was simply thinking "dammit Vegeta, just power up and get it the fuck over with." If this was Vegeta from Z, he would have already had that stupid robot on the ground and in pieces.
I understand that they want to break away from the whole endless power leveling that went on in Z, but it just feels like they are prolonging the inevitable by stupid plot devices.
I do think that the design of the robot is pretty cool, and his attacks and animations are nice, in a more positive note. Next episode does look like it gets more to the point.
EDIT: Personally, I was also hoping that Vegeta would give in to his darker nature and just pulverize the shit out of Frost. Unfortunately, all we got was a punch. I really wanted him to go back to his Majin Vegeta phase, even if just for a second. I mean, they had a great moment: Vegeta was robbed in his fight with Frieza, who had destroyed his home planet and made his father look like shit. Here we had the chance for some interesting character development, for Vegeta to get some enjoyment out of beating the shit out of someone who looked like Frieza, but they decided to go the easy route. I suppose it would fit his 'new' character, but I was left a little disappointed about that buildup.
You have to understand, they're fighting people hand chosen by the gods. They can't assume they're all easy mode Podunk mooks.
Vegeta himself has learned a lot of patience and respect for his opponents and has changed a lot bro. He's only going to go all out if it is necessary to save his family.
Vegeta himself has learned a lot of patience and respect for his opponents and has changed a lot bro. He's only going to go all out if it is necessary to save his family.
Slayer-33
Liverpool-2
Hell yeah, he also got rid of someone earlier on as you remember and it was the right thing to do, of course dumb ass Goku was like "you didn't need to do that"
I hope they don't screw Vegeta up.
Yep he even says he won't stoop as low as someone like Frost
I understand that Vegeta is supposed to be changed and all. But you'd think, old tendencies die hard. People don't just up and change 100%. He's almost like a completely different character. That feels less like character development and more like 'let's just make him different.'
And for what I said, I just simply 'wanted' him to do it. It would have been more entertaining, personally. They made all these comparisons to Frieza, so it only would have been natural if it made Vegeta a bit testy. But yeah, I suppose he is a different man now.
Just because they throw in a line like that, doesn't really make it any better in my opinion. I think with a guy like Vegeta, like I said, old habits die hard. And really, do you think Vegeta's character is really going to change much beyond this point? It would be more interesting if he struggled with his dark side, and yet still remained one of the good guys. (again, personal opinion)
At some point earlier in the story we could have called it character development, but I honestly don't know if they are going to give him any more development than what they've already done. If Vegeta remains this way then they turned one of the most interesting characters in the series into something pretty boring (imo).
And for what I said, I just simply 'wanted' him to do it. It would have been more entertaining, personally. They made all these comparisons to Frieza, so it only would have been natural if it made Vegeta a bit testy. But yeah, I suppose he is a different man now.
Just because they throw in a line like that, doesn't really make it any better in my opinion. I think with a guy like Vegeta, like I said, old habits die hard. And really, do you think Vegeta's character is really going to change much beyond this point? It would be more interesting if he struggled with his dark side, and yet still remained one of the good guys. (again, personal opinion)
At some point earlier in the story we could have called it character development, but I honestly don't know if they are going to give him any more development than what they've already done. If Vegeta remains this way then they turned one of the most interesting characters in the series into something pretty boring (imo).
well he still has the drive to be the best.
beyond that though vegeta has had a ton of character growth time.
big one... he had kids.
his son came back in time and died causing vegata to awaken feelings he didn't even know he had.
from there he raised his kids, and then had one last major, I want to be a jerk moment becoming a bad guy for the sake of trying to be the best, knowing that death is trivial on earth and who ever he killed would just come back.
where by the end of all that he attempted to sacrifice himself to make up for his mistakes, aka already quite a changed man at that point.
but wait, then a bit later he is brought back only to admit that goku is his friend.
really nothing in super so far is out of line with what we saw vegeta become in Z. and it's not like it happened overnight. we have basically seen vegeta go from a 22 year old Jock to a near 40 year old family man. He still has that drive that made him strive to be great, but his priories are much different now. He not only wants to be a better man because of his time with goku and his family, but in general is.
because he would have lost the fight? (killing someone equals disqualification aka really the ultimate team would be made up of 5 people who instantly die when getting touched by anything
)Vegeta hates losing.
also he knows that his wife wouldn't approve of him murdering someone and despite his attitude and pretending that he doesn't care, he is totally her bitch.
plus frost doesn't = freeza.
ArchedThunder
Banned
Because it's a tournament for fun, they are only using as much power as they need to so they can have challenging fights to test their strength and not one sided beat downs.
They see this tournament as a stepping stone towards becoming as strong as Beerus, they won't get better if they just use Blue as a crutch and overpower everyone with it.
Pankratous
Member
Think it would be cool if when Gohan came back he was merely back to his teen SSJ2 level in strength and hadn't unlocked his mystic again. Gets beat by somebody and de-powers to base but then that person does something to piss him off and he loses his temper like the good old days and unlocks Mystic again.
Yeah, it feels really unlike the Vegeta we know. And sometimes, writers can make a character change so much that it just doesn't feel like the same person.
well he still has the drive to be the best.
beyond that though vegeta has had a ton of character growth time.
big one... he had kids.
his son came back in time and died causing vegata to awaken feelings he didn't even know he had.
from there he raised his kids, and then had one last major, I want to be a jerk moment becoming a bad guy for the sake of trying to be the best, knowing that death is trivial on earth and who ever he killed would just come back.
where by the end of all that he attempted to sacrifice himself to make up for his mistakes, aka already quite a changed man at that point.
but wait, then a bit later he is brought back only to admit that goku is his friend.
really nothing in super so far is out of line with what we saw vegeta become in Z. and it's not like it happened overnight. we have basically seen vegeta go from a 22 year old Jock to a near 40 year old family man. He still has that drive that made him strive to be great, but his priories are much different now. He not only wants to be a better man because of his time with goku and his family, but in general is.
because he would have lost the fight? (killing someone equals disqualification aka really the ultimate team would be made up of 5 people who instantly die when getting touched by anything
Vegeta hates losing.
also he knows that his wife wouldn't approve of him murdering someone and despite his attitude and pretending that he doesn't care, he is totally her bitch.
plus frost doesn't = freeza.
I simply think that 'he had kids' is a poor reason for this change. And actually, a change is nice, but Vegeta doesn't seem to behave at all like he used to. Even good people that change still struggle with the past, and him having some element of struggle dealing with his selfish nature would help make it more realistic. But I see that most people watching don't need this from the show, they are just happy that vegeta is doing something different. But I think they are wasting potential for complexity of character.
At this rate, Vegeta is just simply becoming a more deadpan version of Goku.
At some point, I feel he needs to return to his more evil side, even if he doesn't go full evil. He needs to revisit it, because this new series is simply handwaving the personality that he's maintained for the better part of his life.
It's true that he's had the most change. But I just simply disagree that him 'simply growing up' is a good development of character. And I guess it just boils down to preference. We will see where it ends up, but I wonder if his growth ends here, or if there is more to it.
ArchedThunder
Banned
They already did that in the Buu arc, and even with the remaining evil in his heart unlocked he still selflessly sacrificed himself to protect his family. He's grown into a compassionate and noble man and he should stay that way, I would be pissed if they threw all the character development he's gone through away.
Jaco did spend all that time alone with Bulma
More Like a character who follows tournament rules.
The Silver
Member
Vegeta already completed his character arc in the buu saga when he admitted Goku was better. He's not going to regress back to being evil or change much at all, he's finally content with his life.
He still has it in him to kill, he killed Tagoma/Ginyu with no hesitation. He's not going to murder Frost because well he has no reason to, Frost isn't threatening his family or the earth, it's just a tournament where one of the rules was to not kill. Frost pretty much said he was going to kill Vegeta and so Vegeta responded by proving that he was better than Frost in every way by not stooping to his level, adding insult to injury.
He still has it in him to kill, he killed Tagoma/Ginyu with no hesitation. He's not going to murder Frost because well he has no reason to, Frost isn't threatening his family or the earth, it's just a tournament where one of the rules was to not kill. Frost pretty much said he was going to kill Vegeta and so Vegeta responded by proving that he was better than Frost in every way by not stooping to his level, adding insult to injury.
Yeah that's true. I would like to see more of this side of Vegeta, as he's still a stubborn and selfish character.
Honestly, I was actually hoping that he would clean up the tournament. But now we know Goku is going to come back, he will end up taking the prize, unless a last minute loss means we get to see what Monaka's up to.
He was allowed to kill him if he wanted.
That's true, he did rip Ginyu.
ArchedThunder
Banned
It's not like Vegeta's character development just happened for no reason.
In the Saiyan Arc he was a selfish villain, only wanting immortality for himself. In the Namek arc this continued but ultimately he had to team up with the good guys to keep the Dragon Balls away from Freeza and by the end of it he not only has no home, no comrades, no job and no immortality, but a low class Saiyan managed to completely outclass him and become a Super Saiyan. At this point we see Vegeta shift from a selfish villain to a selfish anti-hero of sorts, now no longer evil really and driven entirely by his ungodly need to become better than Goku and he'll stop at nothing until he achieves it and can not accept Goku being stronger than him. He's cold to his son from the Future as well as his new wife, but when Trunks is pierced through the chest by Cell at the Cell games he's devastated and attacks Cell in rage, and this is another big step in his character development, feeling for someone other than himself. In the Buu arc he's calmed down and even spends time with his son, but his selfishness is still there and he lets Babidi unlock his evil just so he can become stronger than Goku, but ultimately his new selfless nature wins out in the end as he sacrifices himself to protect Earth and his family. Later in the Buu arc we even see him terrified that Buu will destroy Earth (and he does) and during the final battle he realizes that he doesn't have to be the best and here is where his selfishness dies. In Super we see him continuing to care about his family and Earth, even willing to humiliate himself to protect them, but also still wanting to become stronger than everyone else, but he wants to do it fair and square and the idea of someone being stronger than him no longer enrages him, it drives him to become better.
Wat , really? I must have missed that. I mean, the referee checks if Frost is still alive before giving the win to Vegeta.
everyone agrees to forget the rules, even Beerus and Champa before they start fighting so it was basically a 'you are allowed to kill match'
This is all well and good. But let me compare Vegeta to some other characters who are in a similar situation, from other anime.
We have Vash from Trigun, and Kenshin from Rurouni Kenshin. In those stories, both characters have made a big change from their past lives. They live a new life, with different morality and different rules. However, they are still haunted by their mistakes and the events that happened in the past. Even a changed person still has to deal with the memories and the reality of who they were compared to who they've become.
Kenshin especially deals with the risk of turning back to the way he used to be, when trying to face a new threat. It's just a human characteristic that one has to face the past daily when trying to live life.
With Vegeta, he just simply has become almost a new person. The writers have written in a few quirks here and there to let us know that it's still the same Vegeta, but the actual character is almost completely different. There's not much that embraces the history of what he's gone through, and what people watching have gone through.
My point has been that even though he's a changed man, he still has to deal with the consequences of a shitty past. The show hasn't really done much towards that side of his character in Super. They kind of wrote a new character in the shell of an old one.
EDIT: It's not a perfect comparison, and perhaps it's asking too much of a show that is long past its prime. Super is going in a different direction, perhaps more of a middle ground between the original series and Z. I suppose maybe I've just gotten impatient with the series after these years, and going back is giving me a more cynical reaction nowadays.
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