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Dragon's Crown Reviews
- Thread starter ponpo
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Like I said, this is a separate issue I have with reviews in general. It's not necessarily applicable to the Polygon review here. I do not think that a review is soapbox or a reviewer's personal storefront. There should be a reason why your review is in a publication and not on a random unknown blog of the internet.
SolidSnakex
Member
What do you mean what's the point? They wanted to make a game with an artstyle that would grab peoples attention. Kamitani said going strictly traditional would've meant that the game would just get lost in the mix. So he decided to exaggerate everything to make it stand out more. But I think this article does a good job of explaining everything
http://art-eater.com/2013/03/from-m...ragons-crown-trailer-is-full-of-epic-homages/
Some great comparison of where the art comes from. Everything from classic Disney to Frank Frazetta.
Did Polygon dock points off every God of War and DudeBro shooter ever because they represent unrealistic and intimidating representations of male form for us regular guys?
Didn't think so.
Oh wait, their reviews editor is a pandering white knight known lunatic. Maybe MSN can sponsor his therapy with a documentary.
I'll be enjoying the old school action and HOT women. Because you know, I'm a man. *shock horror*
Didn't think so.
Oh wait, their reviews editor is a pandering white knight known lunatic. Maybe MSN can sponsor his therapy with a documentary.
I'll be enjoying the old school action and HOT women. Because you know, I'm a man. *shock horror*
diffusionx
Gold Member
I can't tell if this is a joke post or not.
Reviews are nothing more than opinion. Everything in the review is about "your own tastes." Yes a game can be rated a 10, a 7, a 3, and a 0 by four different people. That's the point.
There is no platonic "real score" that a game "deserves." It is all, 100%, total opinion.
Video game developers and artists aren't constrained to your views, man.
Jacksonlee
Member
are they? what do you feel when you play and regard the oversexualization of hookers and women in GTA? - when they are -degraded- for the pleasures of men as mere postergirls and physical pleasures?
i'm just saying, they're basically the same.
Deified Data
Banned
Enlighten me.
Vire
Member
Facts? I'm using my eyes.
Two large breasts jiggling all over the place with each step is creativity and not fan service?...
*hands up*
Ok I'm done.
IHaveCandy
Banned
I don't get pointing out that the Sorceress' breasts are larger than her head. Some women have breasts larger than their heads.
chrominance
Member
You're saying that "ladies" should be very careful in how they phrase their objections to content they find objectionable because gamers, who are predominantly male, cannot be counted on to moderate their responses. In other words, if the woman says something that could be controversial, it's on her to make sure the discourse remains civil, not the commenters who actually bring down the discourse.
Also, the idea that "her personal beliefs" and "the quality of the game" are somehow two separate things is ridiculous to me. There's no objective standard of game quality. There's no hunk of Quality that sits in a vault somewhere to serve as an official measure, as though you could weight a game against that hunk and say, "yup, it's 2.7 Qualities." Your personal beliefs naturally shape your perception of a game's quality. She clearly thinks the depiction of the female characters in Dragon's Crown has an effect on the game's quality; you don't seem to. Guess what? You're both right! Dragon's Crown is a better game for you than it is for her because the things she finds distasteful, you don't.
Think about it this way: let's say a reviewer came out and said they loved the character designs in Dragon's Crown because they loved big tits. Is that objectionable? My guess is you'd think it probably wasn't, or not to the same extent. Is that reviewer's score influenced by their "personal beliefs" that big tits are attractive? Absolutely. Maybe not by much, but it's definitely in there.
Widespread beliefs are often not considered "beliefs," because they're so prevalent that they might as well be invisible. But they're still personal beliefs. Similarly, tacit approval of Dragon's Crown's art style is not the same thing as having no opinion on it whatsoever; tacit approval of the art style is itself a "personal belief."
I find your close-minded ignorance disgusting.
Luckily, gaming doesn't need to conform to your warped perceptions of value. If a game is pure fanservice (which Dragon's Crown is not), I don't question its right to exist.
HueyFreeman
Banned
This is a great way of expressing it. I can try and justify this game's art style to my wife till I'm blue in the face, but at the end of the day, it's still probably gonna seem offensive and ridiculous - and really, I'd agree. Pictures are worth a thousand words, and I think this games imagery is anachronistic.
That certainly isn't to say that others can't enjoy the game, and appreciate "the point." I just don't think I do.
Should there be a separate thread for discussing this stuff?
Jinkuro actually.
GoddyofAus
Banned
Riposte hits the nail on the head. Feminism in games (or in general really) is such a loaded debate now, it's frightening. Don't you dare have a penis and tell women they're overreacting (which isn't even my personal belief but according to the emotional pri-madonnas on GAF, it is so lets just roll with it) because you will get your head torn off. Feminism or female issues is a female only zone, gentlemen, let's just back off.
Anyone see the irony in how sexist THAT position is?
First of all, what's with the "ladies" in quotations as if to suggest that's not what they are?
Secondly, whether personal beliefs can be woven into a review or not is irrelevant. Of course you can do that, but to suggest that is fair on the game and its creators is a long bow to draw. Danielle wrote a review based on personal grounds that is supposed to represent the views of Polygon as a whole and give consumers an indication of how good the game is and what their money will be going towards. Polygon might say that's their view as a collective, but I'm betting it's not. What is wrong with having the game reviewed by both a man and a woman, JUST BECAUSE they already know it will be a contentious issue upon release. At least then there could have been a bit more balance than what there was.
its' not the style of the art but the content in it.
ElRenoRaven
Member
And that's a question you can ask. In fact that would be a good question but in an opinion piece on sexism in games. Not in the actual review of the game. Now all this said do I think it's sexist personally no but I don't look at this game in a sexual manor. It's very cartoony and exaggerated. To me it would be like looking at Smurfette and going oh damn she's hot. I just don't. It's the same in this. So I don't look at any of these characters in a sexual manor. But if someone does then ok I can understand why they might. Anyway
I'll just shut up now. It's hard to explain my viewpoint on this. Basically just tell me if the game functions right and has issues on a design level. That's what I want in a review. Maybe some of my posts came off harsh and if so then I'm sorry I offended anyone including the author of the review. To me sexism isn't about looks and poses. I have issues with women being paid less, being treated like shit because their a woman. Not because they may be good looking or striking a sexy pose. Either way it's time to step back a bit I think.
Riposte
Member
You are saying the artist didn't want to draw this?
I enjoy that you say that unironicly with an avatar from a zombie violence game
Of course it can. And Dragon's Crown is.
There's a large difference between liking something and something being good. How good? There's room for variation there, but saying that Dragon's Crown is not a good game is disingenuous.
The first is a relative term, the second is absolute, and there are plenty absolute quality-related parameters in games. Not being able to recognize them and assign them the right weight is the mark of a someone that simply should not be a critic.
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
true, i'll correct my post.
TheChillyAcademic
Member
Yeah I can totally see that. Whilst I suppose there are people who are attracted to homoerotic depictions of burly, old, bears, it seems more likely it is just an exaggerated cliche. Given the obvious intelligence of the sorceress, juxtaposing her intellect with her choice of bra size (or lack thereof) does seem somewhat jarring.
Sexualization, at either end of the spectrum, male or female, I suppose truly is a matter of opinion.
Jacksonlee
Member
then reviews are not professional. they are merely thought pieces, blogs, something that anyone can come up with. (it was a seriously post , btw)
when sites that dedicate and cater to the masses such as Polygon give a score that is heavily influenced by personal distaste, it's doing a disservice to the readers.
i'd like to think that reviewing is a career - something that takes time, talent (in going beyond your own tastes) and effort.
if everything be opnions and how it feels, reviewers be damned. what's the point?
IHaveCandy
Banned
Serious question. Can somebody make a video game character that is supposed to be very seductive as part of their character? Why must it automatically be decided "oh they're doing that to get the pervs to buy it"?
Lonewulfeus
Member
Pleasanty surprised at the high marks this game has gotten, between this and Xillia Tuesday is gonna be a good day.
ElRenoRaven
Member
Now that to me is uncalled for. They're not a lunatic and doesn't need therapy just because they believe it's sexist.
Vanillaware has never had a particularly good track record with regards to how they depict women but Dragon's Crown takes it noticeably further than their previous games. As someone who plays a lot of videogames I'm obviously able to tolerate some level of this kind of thing but there's a certain point where the discomfort outweighs the enjoyment I'm getting out of the game and Dragon Crown looks to have crossed that point.
How about some real review
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UdxgvM11o8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UdxgvM11o8
Spirit of Jazz
Banned
Then all reviews should be rendered pointless to you. All impressions on what makes something bad or good or the extent to how good or bad things make the game is utterly subjective.
greendomo's ghost
Member
Jiggly boob defense force all up in this thread!
Personally, from a gameplay perspective, this looks like a game I'd really enjoy, but the gratuitous sexualization doesn't float my boat, in fact it puts me off. It's definitely a game I'd be embarrassed to play in front of my wife, just like she'd be embarrassed if I sat down with her while she was watching a Zac Effron movie.
it's catering to a male audience, and that's fine, but you can't discount that, no matter how much you want to talk about the exaggerated deceptions of men, or it being part of the 'art style'.
If you like the art style, and have no issue with the overt sexualization of the female characters that's fine, but to act like it legitimately can't be a detractor for other people is just being disingenuous.
Personally, from a gameplay perspective, this looks like a game I'd really enjoy, but the gratuitous sexualization doesn't float my boat, in fact it puts me off. It's definitely a game I'd be embarrassed to play in front of my wife, just like she'd be embarrassed if I sat down with her while she was watching a Zac Effron movie.
it's catering to a male audience, and that's fine, but you can't discount that, no matter how much you want to talk about the exaggerated deceptions of men, or it being part of the 'art style'.
If you like the art style, and have no issue with the overt sexualization of the female characters that's fine, but to act like it legitimately can't be a detractor for other people is just being disingenuous.
Whoosh. The point was that people with that kind of anatomy actually exist. Why shouldn't they be replicated in art form?
You're basically saying that Hendricks' body IS offensive, but it's okay since it's not her fault.
Oh jeeze, I forgot about Xillia.
I've preordered both and I have absolutely no time to play any of them!
Jacksonlee
Member
something can be objectively good. doesn't mean everyone thinks its good
But yes, yes it does:
Right here, you're describing a quality of the game that annoys you.
Your tastes in games are always going to be relevant, always. It's impossible for any reviewer to approach a game with zero preconceptions unless you have them live in a closet. In any case, the Polygon review did not label the game as "objectively bad", they described the parts that they enjoyed and the parts that they did not, and were clear about why they felt that way.
So if you had a miserable time playing a Mario game, I'd like to know about it and why. After all, I find myself more and more on the fence about buying Mario games and it might be helpful to read a review from someone who shares my reservations. If anyone wanted a sterile, objective overview of the game's content then they can just watch youtube videos without the commentary.
Yeah but the sorceress is like, in a video game. And you know, video games have to cater to everybody and be as politically correct as possible. There's no way I could keep calm if a game offended me in any way.
I wrote hate letters to long-dead artists about them drawing naked women on paintings and objectifying them. Imagine the horror of seeing a half naked woman somewhere.
Nope that's not what happened.
I don't agree. Objectivity, even limited objectivity, is something that exists. This is how judges and juries exist.
But you're right. Most reviews are pointless to me because they're written like blogposts.
meltingparappa
Member
Just wait until the first lordly videogame blogger receives the nobel prize for advancing the plight of women around the world, beating out a woman risking her life to end brutal domestic violence in Qatar.
If I get a single molecule of enjoyment out of a warrior nun, suggestively spreading her legs and expressing her sexuality, then I'm a monster.
If I get a single molecule of enjoyment of a strong female amazon who chooses to wear clothing she desires but not flaunt her sexuality in a submissive way, then I am a monster.
FML
At least nobody has caught on about fat shaming me for enjoying the food porn in the game.
The media in general just has too much time on it's hands. They have been finding stupid things to complain about for years now. They need to get a second job or maybe start contributing to something that is worth a damn. Humans are sexual creatures; the more the merrier as far as I'm concerned (but I'm not).
Deified Data
Banned
Are you guys buying this for PS3 or Vita?
Yes. See Catherine.
There's a difference between that and "OH LET'S SLAP SOME TITS ON THIS ONE BECAUSE WE'RE ALL GUYS HERE AND WE LIKE THAT."
Most dragon crown threads have never focused on the merits of the gameplay.
IHaveCandy
Banned
Yeah, what the hell was that all about? Making big breasted women is not offensive.
Vire
Member
There is no such thing as an objectively good game.
Even someone could list a game as Mario 64 as a bad game. Why? Because it's an opinion. Creative works are not objectively good or bad, they are subjectively good or bad.
Reviews are opinion pieces. Not sure what's so hard to grasp about this.
PS3, and I'm going to play it on my 1080p computer monitor 3 feet from my face.
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