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Dragon's Crown (Vanillaware PS3/PSV) Sorceress Trailer

D

Devolution

Member
APF said:
Why are you saying a woman can't make up her own mind about what she finds sexually-objectifying?
Click to expand...

That's pretty much what the people damning this game and character are doing and deciding that any sexual objectification is wrong without bothering to look at context or character depth. It's a intellectually disingenuous argument that doesn't help the bottom line at all.
 
D

djplaeskool

Member
Welp.
Just caught up with the thread...and I'm done.
So many mixed messages. Hey breasts...wait lolicon? wat

I just can't.
d1YPTxO.gif


See you for the next character thread.
 
A

APF

Member
BluePigGanon said:
He's more likely saying that it's absurd for anyone - male or female - to make the sort of blanket damning declaration you said she made.
Click to expand...
So you're picking her apart and dismissing her opinion on what she finds sexually-objectifying because you can find isolated examples that buck a very real trend? Haven't a slew of posts just above you made the point that it's a poor tactic to point to individual instances, and rather to talk about the overall trend, which few people can argue against?

Devolution said:
That's pretty much what the people damning this game and character are doing and deciding that any sexual objectification is wrong without bothering to look at context or character depth. It's a intellectually disingenuous argument that doesn't help the bottom line at all.
Click to expand...
I think a lot of people--my fiancee included--are just tired of such a widespread trend of sexual-objectification for the sake of sexual-objectification, regardless of whether there are other aspects to the character that are admirable in some way. A lot of people just want a different default depiction, and unlike a lot of people here I don't think that's fascist or demanding censorship.
 
E

erpg

GAF parliamentarian
From the OT, but I love how this video with Siskel and Ebert defending Star Wars contrasts to this whole thing.

http://youtu.be/Ky9-eIlHzAE

Simon takes the same, really surface level argument. The crux of his arguments are negative adjectives and the perception of an adult (moral) high ground.
 
F

Femmeworth

Banned
Kai Dracon said:
And there we get to the rub. Singling one particular work out to "die for the sins" of a generalized trend can become its own kind of oppression or persecution and may promote distraction with redunctionism - "should this be allowed to exist? How can we be sure? Have we asked everybody yet? What can we agree is a consensus?" I don't like it because it's a subtractive, rather than additive, ethic. In order to balance the scales you argue about what to take away, rather than focus on adding to that which is under-represented. All that does is remove a thing which may well have had a right to be there. Everyone is poorer for that.
Click to expand...
The problem with this argument is media doesn't grow on trees. Singling out a work doesn't erase it from existence.
 
F

Femmeworth

Banned
Delusibeta said:
The problem is that the argument against usually implies that it would be better if the thing in question was erased from existance.
Click to expand...
Even if people do argue that, it isn't going to happen. I can shout at the top of my lungs and stomp my feet, but Strike Witches isn't going to stop existing.
 
D

Devolution

Member
APF said:
I think a lot of people--my fiancee included--are just tired of such a widespread trend of sexual-objectification for the sake of sexual-objectification, regardless of whether there are other aspects to the character that are admirable in some way. A lot of people just want a different default depiction, and unlike a lot of people here I don't think that's fascist or demanding censorship.
Click to expand...

I am too but pick your damn targets well if your intention is to combat the problem or highlight the issue. Yelling sexism at a game like this and ignoring the contrary opinions of women who do in fact play games is pretty shitty for people pretending to give a god damn about sexism in the industry. So far I've felt pretty alienated by this conversation and being told what I should find offensive. Talk about incredibly patronizing and this from people who pretend to care about my perspective. It's ridiculous.
 
N

not psycho

Member
jschreier said:
I haven't read this entire thread, but the accusations I've seen ... that my criticism is contributing to the mistreatment of women - are inappropriate, out of line, and rather disgusting.
Click to expand...


I saw something similar recently in this article.

"It's tough to find a woman in gaming who doesn't have a story about that one time someone said something way over the line"

"Not when so many women still feel so uncomfortable playing games, or working in the video game industry, or attending gaming events."

"But the dwarf isn't making many people uncomfortable, because men don't get sexually harassed at PAX East. Because male designers don't get mistaken for receptionists. Because male reporters are never asked if they really play video games."
Click to expand...

The author was attacking an artwork he disliked using mistreatment of women (sexual harassment, questioning of gaming credibility, etc.) as a weapon.

Would it be fair to say you think this article is "inappropriate, out of line, and rather disgusting"?
 
G

Gokurakumaru

Banned
APF said:
Well first off, of course there is something wrong with deciding to make racist games. I think (hope? pray?) what you mean is, they shouldn't be prevented by law from doing so. Second, the point is that criticism (free speech) shouldn't be curtailed because someone has created a product or a piece of art. It's completely backwards thinking to say that because someone has used their freedom of expression, no one should be able to counter it with their own free expression.
Click to expand...

No there is nothing wrong with making racist games in my opinion. Or stuff like Rapelay for that matter. It's offensive and not for me, but how you or I might feel about issues like these is not a fundamental law of the universe. It's merely a point of view. And some people will never come around to your way of thinking regardless of how much you wish they might.

APF said:
Why are you saying a woman can't make up her own mind about what she finds sexually-objectifying?
Click to expand...

She's welcome to make up her own mind. I just can't lend her opinion on the subject of the sorceress any credibility when she dismisses entire mediums as sexually objectifying women when they don't. It's not exactly an unbiased viewpoint.
 
R

Risette

A Good Citizen
This thread has reached peak levels of asininity. Women giving their actual opinions on the matter are struck down when they disagree, because Gamer Men Know Best, it seems.

It is both hilarious and shocking how aloof the misguided crusaders are in this thread. By insisting that what you deem tasteful and appropriate is best for women and what isn't is harmful to them, and going to lengths to discredit the women who disagree with you and tell them how they should feel, you are exerting male privilege, period. It is absolutely sexist, patronizing, and insulting -- you don't know what's best for women. For one, women are not some monolithic hive entity -- they are people with different tastes and views. Some women will like it, some won't, some won't mind either way or even know this game exists. All are right.

But that doesn't matter because "look at the picture! Look at the GIF! Clearly a sexual object! Maybe it means something, but it doesn't matter because she's a titty monster sexual object! Irredeemable! You just need taste!"

Fuck.
 
D

Devolution

Member
pizzaroll said:
This thread has reached peak levels of asininity. Women giving their actual opinions on the matter are struck down when they disagree, because Gamer Men Know Best, it seems.

It is both hilarious and shocking how aloof the misguided crusaders are in this thread. By insisting that what you deem tasteful and appropriate is best for women and what isn't is harmful to them, and going to lengths to discredit the women who disagree with you and tell them how they should feel, you are exerting male privilege, period. It is absolutely sexist, patronizing, and insulting -- you don't know what's best for women. For one, women are not some monolithic hive entity -- they are people with different tastes and views. Some women will like it, some won't, some won't mind either way or even know this game exists. All are right.

But that doesn't matter because "look at the picture! Look at the GIF! Clearly a sexual object! Maybe it means something, but it doesn't matter because she's a titty monster sexual object! Irredeemable! You just need taste!"

Fuck.
Click to expand...

Or people using their girlfriends who don't know shit about games and generalize them all to bolster their argument.
 
G

Gokurakumaru

Banned
APF said:
So you're picking her apart and dismissing her opinion on what she finds sexually-objectifying because you can find isolated examples that buck a very real trend? Haven't a slew of posts just above you made the point that it's a poor tactic to point to individual instances, and rather to talk about the overall trend, which few people can argue against?

I think a lot of people--my fiancee included--are just tired of such a widespread trend of sexual-objectification for the sake of sexual-objectification, regardless of whether there are other aspects to the character that are admirable in some way. A lot of people just want a different default depiction, and unlike a lot of people here I don't think that's fascist or demanding censorship.
Click to expand...


What overall trend is this game guilty of contributing to? This game has three very different female character types. Present them all to your fiancee and ask her if this is the game to be complaining about? It has a balanced cast and the artstyle is not singularly centred on pandering to perverts. Go hate on Senran Kagura if you want to push this agenda. I can't take you or your fiancee seriously here.
 
Q

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
pizzaroll said:
This thread has reached peak levels of asininity. Women giving their actual opinions on the matter are struck down when they disagree, because Gamer Men Know Best, it seems.

It is both hilarious and shocking how aloof the misguided crusaders are in this thread. By insisting that what you deem tasteful and appropriate is best for women and what isn't is harmful to them, and going to lengths to discredit the women who disagree with you and tell them how they should feel, you are exerting male privilege, period. It is absolutely sexist, patronizing, and insulting -- you don't know what's best for women. For one, women are not some monolithic hive entity -- they are people with different tastes and views. Some women will like it, some won't, some won't mind either way or even know this game exists. All are right.

But that doesn't matter because "look at the picture! Look at the GIF! Clearly a sexual object! Maybe it means something, but it doesn't matter because she's a titty monster sexual object! Irredeemable! You just need taste!"

Fuck.
Click to expand...

I've been pretty much saying this in a lighthearted way the majority of the thread. A lot of people "defending women" are being just as bad as the stuff they are "defending" against. It's just in a different way.
 
K

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Femmeworth said:
The problem with this argument is media doesn't grow on trees. Singling out a work doesn't erase it from existence.
Click to expand...

Oddly enough, this doesn't quite seem to be true.

Games have been altered and reworked sometimes before release due to public outcry and criticism. The article that started this whole thing re: Dragon's Crown seemed to effectively be telling the creator "stop making this stuff, it's bad and shouldn't be in games". The sorceress sprite most likely wouldn't have been redrawn, but the ethic behind the complaint seemed a sincere desire to preempt future works.

It just seems very easy to slide over into advocating censorship rather than using a specific example for a constructive purpose. It's difficult to avoid, which I think is why some would say focusing on trends and positive examples is more effective than singling out works for negative emphasis. (Note: more effective than, but doesn't preclude ever singling out a specific piece of media.)
 
P

prwxv3

Member
Just don't buy the fucking game if the art offends you. Its not like the game is going to sell the best anyway. Honestly if they changed the game like some of you want they would sell less copies.
 
F

Femmeworth

Banned
Kai Dracon said:
Oddly enough, this doesn't quite seem to be true.

Games have been altered and reworked sometimes before release due to public outcry and criticism. The article that started this whole thing re: Dragon's Crown seemed to effectively be telling the creator "stop making this stuff, it's bad and shouldn't be in games". The sorceress sprite most likely wouldn't have been redrawn, but the ethic behind the complaint seemed a sincere desire to preempt future works.

It just seems very easy to slide over into advocating censorship rather than using a specific example for a constructive purpose. It's difficult to avoid, which I think is why some would say focusing on trends and positive examples is more effective than singling out works for negative emphasis. (Note: more effective than, but doesn't preclude ever singling out a specific piece of media.)
Click to expand...
The censorship argument is kind of disingenuous, since less "marketable" ideas are effectively censored in the first place. Edit: Free speech and economics don't mix well.
 
P

pakkit

Banned
I saw the trailer and I knew exactly what this thread would be about.

There's a lot of trouble with using the word "sexualized" when describing a character like this, because it tends to butt heads with sexual freedom and celebration that feminism trumpets.
 
R

Risette

A Good Citizen
Devolution said:
Or people using their girlfriends who don't know shit about games and generalize them all to bolster their argument.
Click to expand...
It reminds me a bit of this

context for those who don't want to read through the thread (I wouldn't either): thread is about a guy who deemed something in a game racist, people of said minority group being "discriminated" against didn't really see the issue, righteous angels insisted that members of that group were actually wrong. The first two posts are satirizing them, and I think it sums up the issue which is similar to what's happening here. The last two posts state the problem of those with those who think they're doing a "good thing" in more clear terms -- it's actually fucking insulting and just perpetuates the problem.
 
D

Devolution

Member
pizzaroll said:
It reminds me a bit of this

context for those who don't want to read through the thread (I wouldn't either): thread is about a guy who deemed something in a game racist, people of said minority group being "discriminated" against didn't really see the issue, righteous angels insisted that members of that group were actually wrong. The first two posts are satirizing them, and I think it sums up the issue which is similar to what's happening here. The last two posts state the problem of those with those who think they're doing a "good thing" in more clear terms -- it's actually fucking insulting and just perpetuates the problem.
Click to expand...

Yup. I even mentioned that earlier when APF was trying to shoehorn in race into this thread.
 
O

Odrion

Banned
Well, this thread has just seen an big output of some really quality counter opinions.

Shame it took thirty-five pages. But hey, that's why you keep an eye on threads like these. I guess. That and the dickgirls.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
QisTopTier said:
With how fast the Dwarf is I wonder how fast the Amazon is going to be since she's supposed to be pretty fast.
Click to expand...
Isn't she supposed to build up speed over time, or something? The way I understood her, it's like the Dwarf is going for hard, solid play, and the Amazon is more like a berserker. I'm most pumped to see the Wizard. I want to see what makes him worth picking over the Sorceress.
 
Velcro Fly

Velcro Fly

Member
I'm hyped for any bit of gameplay info or anything we get. Genuinely excited for this game. I just wish that all this drama over the giant breasts would just stop.
 
Q

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
Karsticles said:
Isn't she supposed to build up speed over time, or something? The way I understood her, it's like the Dwarf is going for hard, solid play, and the Amazon is more like a berserker. I'm most pumped to see the Wizard. I want to see what makes him worth picking over the Sorceress.
Click to expand...
Yeah amazon is supposed to build up speed over time, Im hoping they showcase it a bit

Sorc seems really support heavy. The Wizard is probably going to have some wind up time on stuff but have huge ass aoe attacks and deal a fuck ton of damage, more than any other character probably upfront
 
T

thebaroness

Member
In the end, I can't be too upset about the original insulting article, because it brought more attention to Dragon's Crown. A game I want to see do well here. Thanks for advertising the game better than even Atlus could!
 
B

Big-E

Member
voodoopanda said:
I think trouble arises when one attacks a specific thing, instead of overall trends. It has the side effect of being alienating or excluding when the goal is the opposite.

There are women who like the sorceress, women who are indifferent to the sorceress, and women who dislike the sorceress. All of these are right. When one writes that the design of the sorceress is, specifically, wrong and bad and is hurting women and the industry, it alienates those women who like or are indifferent to the design. In addition, anyone who shares features with the sorceress, such as a youthful face or large breasts, is being alienated when you attack those aspects of her design. Just imagine being in the shoes of a woman who really likes the sorceress and wants to play Dragon's Crown but then reads that this depiction is ruining games for women in an article written by a man.

One should criticize the overall trend of overly sexualized women in games and how there aren't enough different kinds of women without specifically attacking one example for being in some way "bad." Attack the trend of how we place value on women in games in limited categories, such as sex appeal, not that those categories themselves are necessarily bad. Inclusion would be embracing a variety of different aesthetics and viewpoints and life experiences, not replacing one with another.

One could say that the Amazon character in this game actually depicts a body type that you don't see very often at all in video games, and in that way is helping diversity in the line up a little. The game overall is a bit unusual, being a Japanese niche 2D beat em up with a very particular art style.
Click to expand...

Really great post, I would like to see someone disagree with this.

Another point in this whole thing that I find puzzling is that there are women like the Sorceress out there in real life. Another poster mentioned this but if it is breasts that are making people uncomfortable, is there a situation where a character can have big breasts and not cause people to bring up words like dumb, immature, juvenile or sexist?
 
K

Karsticles

Member
QisTopTier said:
Yeah amazon is supposed to build up speed over time, Im hoping they showcase it a bit

Sorc seems really support heavy. The Wizard is probably going to have some wind up time on stuff but have huge ass aoe attacks and deal a fuck ton of damage, more than any other character probably upfront
Click to expand...
I have a feeling I'll end up playing all of the classes, just like I use all the weapons in Monster Hunter...unless one is particularly boring. I tend not to like archers, but maybe the Elf will have an interesting mechanic we don't know about.

thebaroness said:
In the end, I can't be too upset about the original insulting article, because it brought more attention to Dragon's Crown. A game I want to see do well here. Thanks for advertising the game better than even Atlus could!
Click to expand...
Indeed:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633261-dragons-crown/66039822
 
S

Shosai

Banned
voodoopanda said:
I think trouble arises when one attacks a specific thing, instead of overall trends. It has the side effect of being alienating or excluding when the goal is the opposite.

There are women who like the sorceress, women who are indifferent to the sorceress, and women who dislike the sorceress. All of these are right. When one writes that the design of the sorceress is, specifically, wrong and bad and is hurting women and the industry, it alienates those women who like or are indifferent to the design. In addition, anyone who shares features with the sorceress, such as a youthful face or large breasts, is being alienated when you attack those aspects of her design. Just imagine being in the shoes of a woman who really likes the sorceress and wants to play Dragon's Crown but then reads that this depiction is ruining games for women in an article written by a man.

One should criticize the overall trend of overly sexualized women in games and how there aren't enough different kinds of women without specifically attacking one example for being in some way "bad." Attack the trend of how we place value on women in games in limited categories, such as sex appeal, not that those categories themselves are necessarily bad. Inclusion would be embracing a variety of different aesthetics and viewpoints and life experiences, not replacing one with another.
Click to expand...

This post is well-meaning, however it requires critics and writers to tamper their criticism in a way that doesn't offend people who happen to like the product. Which I don't think is possible. Unless they, as you suggest, only refer to a game's flaws in the form of general trends in game design as a whole. This turns reviews and criticism into a weird practice of walking on eggshells, in which you can talk about game design trends you don't like, but only without being able to point out specific examples of "bad" design.

Though, I personally haven't taken offense to a reviewer trashing a game I like since I was 15. I think people should be able to entertain absolute insane opinions of a product without taking personal offense.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
Karsticles said:
I have a feeling I'll end up playing all of the classes, just like I use all the weapons in Monster Hunter...unless one is particularly boring. I tend not to like archers, but maybe the Elf will have an interesting mechanic we don't know about.


Indeed:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633261-dragons-crown/66039822
Click to expand...

One of the guys in that thread had something interesting to say about Elizabeth from Bioshock Infinite:

Meanwhile, Bioshock Infinite's Elizabeth gets a free pass, despite her being nothing more than a walking supply crate who runs like a dainty princess and gradually reveals more cleavage over the course of the game.

She's no better than a Western equivalent of a moe character.
Click to expand...

I loved Bioshock Infinite and thought Elizabeth was a fine character, but I do find it odd that none of the Defenders of Femininity seemed to take no issue with how her character was handled in the light of all the recent hubbub.
 
B

balohna

Member
APF said:
So you're picking her apart and dismissing her opinion on what she finds sexually-objectifying because you can find isolated examples that buck a very real trend? Haven't a slew of posts just above you made the point that it's a poor tactic to point to individual instances, and rather to talk about the overall trend, which few people can argue against?


I think a lot of people--my fiancee included--are just tired of such a widespread trend of sexual-objectification for the sake of sexual-objectification, regardless of whether there are other aspects to the character that are admirable in some way. A lot of people just want a different default depiction, and unlike a lot of people here I don't think that's fascist or demanding censorship.
Click to expand...

Dude, your jumping on anyone that disagrees with your fiancee or thinks maybe she's not-so-informed is actually kind of sexist. Thinking every disagreement with a woman is a slight against her value as a human being is assuming she's weak and needs defending. She's obviously not here to defend herself, but "ignorant" isn't even that bad of a word. People have barely even mentioned her and you're in FULL ON DEFENSE MODE. HOW DARE THEY SAY SHE SOUNDS LIKE SHE'S NOT INFORMED ON THE SUBJECT. Saying "all games and anime do that" IS ignorant. It is. If she was your uncle or your son or your brother it would still be an ignorant statement. It demonstrates ignorance of the subject at hand.

And when you quote the first few words someone says then jump into a reaction immediately it implies you decided not to read the rest of what that person said. Which is pretty ignorant.


Sorry, I wasn't even in this conversation but I just needed to tell you you're being silly about it.
 
A

abadguy

Banned
thebaroness said:
In the end, I can't be too upset about the original insulting article, because it brought more attention to Dragon's Crown. A game I want to see do well here. Thanks for advertising the game better than even Atlus could!
Click to expand...

Well if anything good can come out of this farce, it's that.
 
S

sleepykyo

Member
1. I'm under the impression that sexual objectification in general is reducing women's worth into sexual she (on in this case it) provides. It may very well apply to Lady in DMC4. She isn't a playable character and she doesn't really contribute anything to the story. Sorceress may or may not contribute to the story. However, Sorceress is playable character with her own unique arsenal of moves. While her contribution to the story is unknown, currently public data indicates that her arsenal is relatively fleshed out.

2. On the subject of exclusion by enforcing a default depiction of attractiveness/sexuality. Taken completely out of the context, yes she is yet another top heavy visual. In the context of the game she is one of 6 playable characters. And if one believes the character are models of attractiveness, there are 3 models of attractiveness. ie. While it may include the default model that seems so overused, it muddies the idea that there is a default model.

For that matter Kamitani's default model for playable main heroines was closer to the archer build back in Odin Sphere (Velvet though not conservatively dressed, Gwen and Mercedes). When he starts shifting the top heavy from villain in Odin Sphere, to secondary heroine in Muramasa, to playable main without removing the previous model, his work is now juvenile and grotesque (not the art style)? That'll teach him to start thinking about his work. It'll get him thinking that in the US, we care more about being inoffensive than diversity.

3. On the subject of exclusion by lack of representation. Currently public data indicates 3 males and 3 female characters, right? What does this mean quantitatively?

1000M/10F = 100 M/F 1003/13 = 76.9

Yes I'm pulling the numbers out of my arse, but the principle is solid. Each game where the m/f ratio is 1 (3/3) or less than 1 (0/3) cuts into that 90%M 10%F primary character chart that Lime posted.

People have every right to dislike the design. When making it into a bigger issue and allowing the visual design to trump all the other considerations something seems off though.
 
S

Shosai

Banned
Zefah said:
I loved Bioshock Infinite and thought Elizabeth was a fine character, but I do find it odd that none of the Defenders of Femininity seemed to take no issue with how her character was handled in the light of all the recent hubbub.
Click to expand...

I recall an article in which Ken Levine griped about how fanboys on the internet were paying too much attention to Elizabeth's chest. Which prompted popular follow-up responses of "Well what did you expect?"

thebaroness said:
In the end, I can't be too upset about the original insulting article, because it brought more attention to Dragon's Crown. A game I want to see do well here. Thanks for advertising the game better than even Atlus could!
Click to expand...

Great point, but that's kind of the purpose of every video game article, isn't it? Not surprising, considering Schreier's desire to help the game sell.
 
T

thebaroness

Member
Zefah said:
I loved Bioshock Infinite and thought Elizabeth was a fine character, but I do find it odd that none of the Defenders of Femininity seemed to take no issue with how her character was handled in the light of all the recent hubbub.
Click to expand...


Right on! Her tits were kind of mashed up and in your face half the game, but that didn't stop me from enjoying her and infinite a hella lot!
 
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