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Dragon's Crown (Vanillaware PS3/PSV) Sorceress Trailer
- Thread starter Takao
- Start date
Gokurakumaru
Banned
Do you even know what a strawman is? It's a fallacious argument.
Jennifer Dawe says says big tits does not equal objectification. I gave you a link where someone says it does.
Jennifer Dawe says restricting other people's freedoms (meaning forcing devs to change their art style to suit your tastes in this instance) is not what she wants. I gave you a link where someone says it's our obligation as gamers to do exactly that. And if you click through and read further you'll see he believes these changes make the product "better" as though it's an objective statement. Not better for me, mind you. Not better for Jennifer. Just better for him.
That's a direct rebuttal to what you claim is a strawman. It's not.
Sgt.Pepper
Banned
And here I was thinking it was early teens girls with small breasts. Or look like that anyway.
Riposte
Member
Jason instead of calling people 14 year olds and being patronizing to women, how about you focus on giving interviews where you introduce and question these ideas with developers? See, that's something most people on GAF can't do. Feeling morally superior on the other hand, we have enough of that.
darkblade77
Member
I think his interpretation is the "extremely-youthful-features-yet-also-unrealistically-voluptuous/sexualized" one. I can see how the conclusion was reached, but I don't think it's a correct read.
Giolon
Member
What....are you serious? You basically just called anyone who thinks her face is attractive or pretty a pedophile.
So...you think they should be hidden? Static? Unmoving? Smaller? The character is designed to be titillating and exaggerated, grotesquely so.
Casting aspersions again.
It IS ok, Jason. Everything is not made for everybody. Twilight is not made for men. 50 Shades of Grey is not made for men. Generic romance novels at the grocery store are not made for men.
This is 1 Character. There are room for all types. I'm all for the strong characters, I love them too. Everything doesn't have to be a 100% positive aspirational role model. That's not a goal to aspire to because it leads everything to sameness. You can have Lulu and Yuna both. You can have Selvaria and Alicia. You can have Marle and Luca. You can have the Sorceress, the Amazon, and the Elf. Stop trying to dictate what female characters should and shouldn't exist.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
Delusibeta
Banned
BluePigGanon
Member
This is where the gulf is. There are two assumptions embedded in this that in my opinion are not fair to make:
1) That inclusiveness is something to strive for (or is even desirable), and
2) That every game has a responsibility to Represent Gaming Well.
Fundamentally disagree with both of those, strongly.
Mr.Monitor
Member
I don't think that means what you think it means.
I don't see how that doesn't matter. It's part of the context. It's like cherrypicking an "offensive" line intended to be satirical out of a film and claiming that the fact that it's satire doesn't matter. You can take fucktons of stuff out of context in multiple forms of media and make them look offensive extremely easily.
Pinko Marx
Banned
Isn't this the opposite of Lolicon?
How is a full figured woman feeding into a Lolicon fantasy?
How is a full figured woman feeding into a Lolicon fantasy?
encephalon
Member
"The size of her tits isn't the issue."
correct.
SolidSnakex
Member
So Jason's gone from saying that an image like the Sorceress is drawn to appeal to 14 year old boys to saying that she's now a lolicon fantasy.
Delusibeta
Banned
Also, I do believe Schrider just made a statement that demonstrates that he has no idea what he's talking about.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
"You're a pedophile if you like the Sorceress!" - Kotaku
No one is preventing you from voicing your opinion. I'm not asking you to feel differently about anything. I asked you another question on a different subject: how cool are you with racist games, if you object to people "censoring" or "labeling" art by voicing their own objections.
The size of her tits isn't the issue. She is very clearly being sexually objectified.
I showed this picture to my fiancee and asked her if she felt it was sexually-objectifying. She looked at it in horror, then started laughing. "That's just awful! Of course it is!" Then she said, "but really all games and anime draw women like that. What's wrong with them?"
Devolution
Member
You can have strong, complicated female characters who own their sexuality. They are not mutually exclusive. This is the same crap I read when Bayo came out despite the fact that Jeanne was also in game and that the creator did DMC. He completely objectified a dude first and people were still all over him. It's ridiculous. These arguments do nothing to actually engage the issue of representations and only put people on the defensive.
Why are you bringing race into this? Let's get some more comically stupid articles about how we should find that little girl in Borderlands offensive. Gaming journalism sure had that down pat too right?
Pimpbaa
Member
The problem is you are just looking at the character and immediately claim the character is a sex object while knowing nothing of the character herself. It's the same as seeing a shapely girl on the beach in a skimpy bikini and automatically labeling her as a slut.
BluePigGanon
Member
I dont understand why you keep trying to draw some equivalence between racism and sexual objectification. They are broadly similar, but when it gets down to the nuts and bolts of it - especially in this conversation - it's apples and oranges.
Pimpbaa said:
Look, I'll go a step farther and say it doesn't even really matter whether the character is a sex object or not. Let's say she does ooze sexuality from every pore, and every line of dialogue is steeped in it. What exactly is the objection to an exaggerated avatar of female sexuality?
Gokurakumaru
Banned
Well, I'm not going to go into any depth on that; look up any backstory, character development or her relationships to other characters and just call it sexist and embarrassing. Slap a picture and you've got yourself an article.Just a random note: Suikoden II (and all the Suikoden games) has Jeanne.
Just another day at Slowtaku.
Devolution
Member
Yeah is she 11 or is she too sexual. What is this. Can't even pick a side.
Just a random note: Suikoden II (and all the Suikoden games) has Jeanne.
Yeah, she's pretty ridiculous-looking, especially in Suikoden V.
Femmeworth
Banned
What? (If you post something from Devil May Cry 2, 3, or 4 I'm going to give you a funny look.)
Knux-Future
Banned
it offends YOU.
That is the crux of this issue.
Stop trying to make it a crusade.
That's fine if it somehow offends you.
But the sweeping broad statements about how "this is why Women don't game" is fucking bullshit since many Female Gaffer have commented that this doesn't bug them. You are speaking for an entire gender which is stupid and makes you points fail.
Some women are probably offended. i'm sure.
I'm sure some Italian guy out there is offended by Mario. PETA hates Pokemon. GTA got a lot of grief for it's violence.
The key is that while yeah each of those have merits about being offensive but if you were to create an article saying "EVERY Italian is offended by Mario and Nintendo should think about what they did" would be insanely stupid.
TLDR Version: YOU don't like it. it's Cool. But don't make it out to be some big thing when the people you are standing up for aren't all offended.
Otherwise, if one person is enough to go to bat for then go to bat for the Mario guy. Or PETA. or the soccer moms against violent videogame.
That is the crux of this issue.
Stop trying to make it a crusade.
That's fine if it somehow offends you.
But the sweeping broad statements about how "this is why Women don't game" is fucking bullshit since many Female Gaffer have commented that this doesn't bug them. You are speaking for an entire gender which is stupid and makes you points fail.
Some women are probably offended. i'm sure.
I'm sure some Italian guy out there is offended by Mario. PETA hates Pokemon. GTA got a lot of grief for it's violence.
The key is that while yeah each of those have merits about being offensive but if you were to create an article saying "EVERY Italian is offended by Mario and Nintendo should think about what they did" would be insanely stupid.
TLDR Version: YOU don't like it. it's Cool. But don't make it out to be some big thing when the people you are standing up for aren't all offended.
Otherwise, if one person is enough to go to bat for then go to bat for the Mario guy. Or PETA. or the soccer moms against violent videogame.
Nothing is equivalent. I'm drawing a comparison in order to figure out what people's actual boundaries are. People on GAF are way more cautious when it comes to speaking about race than they are when speaking about women, so I'm hoping that the comparison will force someone to finally realize they're making poor arguments that they don't hold consistently.
Fiancee, and thanks for belittling her because she dares to disagree with you.
Very well said. People don't seem to understand this. Believe it or not, women with large breasts can quite often have human personalities behind them.
Regardless of whether or not the character/person is attempting to dress or come off as sexy, it doesn't necessarily objectify them.
And? AND!?
Can you go beyond face value? I know it might feel like I'm handing you a noose every time I reply, but Christ. It feels like you're in that vacuum, surrounded by people who take quick looks at images and make superficial admonishments from soapboxes.
I hope I'm not alone in that I had to double tap, right click and search for Lolicon. I had no idea that was labeled as a thing.
Personally, I've seen all the art for the game and thought nothing more than....hey, that looks cool and different. I'll keep an eye on this and see how it turns out.
At no point did the notion of huge tits and big muscles come into my head as a reason to want to learn more about the game. It just looks like visually alluring art to me that supports what they're trying to achieve with the gameplay. This is further supported by the fact that it's hand drawn.
Now if this were a mega budget AAA game and the visual style were more realistic, then I would probably lean the other way - if only by the slightest amount.
As it stands though, this seems like a lot of talk over nothing.
Personally, I've seen all the art for the game and thought nothing more than....hey, that looks cool and different. I'll keep an eye on this and see how it turns out.
At no point did the notion of huge tits and big muscles come into my head as a reason to want to learn more about the game. It just looks like visually alluring art to me that supports what they're trying to achieve with the gameplay. This is further supported by the fact that it's hand drawn.
Now if this were a mega budget AAA game and the visual style were more realistic, then I would probably lean the other way - if only by the slightest amount.
As it stands though, this seems like a lot of talk over nothing.
voodoopanda
Member
I think trouble arises when one attacks a specific thing, instead of overall trends. It has the side effect of being alienating or excluding when the goal is the opposite.
There are women who like the sorceress, women who are indifferent to the sorceress, and women who dislike the sorceress. All of these are right. When one writes that the design of the sorceress is, specifically, wrong and bad and is hurting women and the industry, it alienates those women who like or are indifferent to the design. In addition, anyone who shares features with the sorceress, such as a youthful face or large breasts, is being alienated when you attack those aspects of her design. Just imagine being in the shoes of a woman who really likes the sorceress and wants to play Dragon's Crown but then reads that this depiction is ruining games for women in an article written by a man.
One should criticize the overall trend of overly sexualized women in games and how there aren't enough different kinds of women without specifically attacking one example for being in some way "bad." Attack the trend of how we place value on women in games in limited categories, such as sex appeal, not that those categories themselves are necessarily bad. Inclusion would be embracing a variety of different aesthetics and viewpoints and life experiences, not replacing one with another.
One could say that the Amazon character in this game actually depicts a body type that you don't see very often at all in video games, and in that way is helping diversity in the line up a little. The game overall is a bit unusual, being a Japanese niche 2D beat em up with a very particular art style.
There are women who like the sorceress, women who are indifferent to the sorceress, and women who dislike the sorceress. All of these are right. When one writes that the design of the sorceress is, specifically, wrong and bad and is hurting women and the industry, it alienates those women who like or are indifferent to the design. In addition, anyone who shares features with the sorceress, such as a youthful face or large breasts, is being alienated when you attack those aspects of her design. Just imagine being in the shoes of a woman who really likes the sorceress and wants to play Dragon's Crown but then reads that this depiction is ruining games for women in an article written by a man.
One should criticize the overall trend of overly sexualized women in games and how there aren't enough different kinds of women without specifically attacking one example for being in some way "bad." Attack the trend of how we place value on women in games in limited categories, such as sex appeal, not that those categories themselves are necessarily bad. Inclusion would be embracing a variety of different aesthetics and viewpoints and life experiences, not replacing one with another.
One could say that the Amazon character in this game actually depicts a body type that you don't see very often at all in video games, and in that way is helping diversity in the line up a little. The game overall is a bit unusual, being a Japanese niche 2D beat em up with a very particular art style.
Devolution
Member
This is a great post, thank you.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
100% this
Quoting for quality.
Gokurakumaru
Banned
I'm not going to speak for the other guy, but I'd be fine with racist games. I wouldn't want to play them, but there's nothing wrong with someone deciding to make them. Which is the point here. Don't support what you don't like. If nobody likes this stuff it will go away of its own accord.
I'm not belittling her. But whatever point you were trying to make is negated because your girlfriend is ignorant of the subject matter and clearly prejudiced. All games and anime do not draw women like the sorceress. That's what makes the design okay in my books. There is no systemic prejudice at work here. Show your girlfriend a picture of the elf from the same game for goodness sake. Educate her.
That's a very interesting take on the issue.
BluePigGanon
Member
You can speak for me, I think you're pretty much on the money.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
Missed this one.
I find the Amazon much more appealing personally, but admittedly she falls more in line with my personal aesthetic preferences regarding women. Take that as you will in regards to this discussion.
All I know is she is very unique, and I know I'm looking forward to playing as her.
I do find it maybe a little curious that the character with the assets statistically more desirable to the most men is the one first discussed. Could mean absolutely nothing, could be very telling, I dunno. Not being a breast man, I must say that I perceive an overabundance of discussion about them in general, and it actually makes me feel a little odd or left out not finding them to be as desirable a feature of a woman as some men do. But of course, it's not like human sexuality is a simple subject.
I'm starting to ramble. Time to shut up and go to sleep I think.
Well first off, of course there is something wrong with deciding to make racist games. I think (hope? pray?) what you mean is, they shouldn't be prevented by law from doing so. Second, the point is that criticism (free speech) shouldn't be curtailed because someone has created a product or a piece of art. It's completely backwards thinking to say that because someone has used their freedom of expression, no one should be able to counter it with their own free expression.
Why are you saying a woman can't make up her own mind about what she finds sexually-objectifying?
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
This is a point that gets missed a lot in these kinds of discussions IMO.
Reminds me of a conversation about movies I sat in on one time. It kind of went like this:
Person A: That action film that just came out with a male hero is just another wasted opportunity. The hero could have been a women. We all know it's because they won't fund a popcorn movie with a female lead.
Person B: So is it really a bad movie though? The supporting female characters are pretty strong, and don't idolize the protagonist.
Person A: It's bad because it's just another film that supports the status quo.
Person B: But if it was the exact same film it is now, there would be no problem with it, if more films starring female action heroes were already out there?
And there we get to the rub. Singling one particular work out to "die for the sins" of a generalized trend can become its own kind of oppression or persecution and may promote distraction with redunctionism - "should this be allowed to exist? How can we be sure? Have we asked everybody yet? What can we agree is a consensus?" I don't like it because it's a subtractive, rather than additive, ethic. In order to balance the scales you argue about what to take away, rather than focus on adding to that which is under-represented. All that does is remove a thing which may well have had a right to be there. Everyone is poorer for that.
Reluctant-Hero
Member
Finally, someone points this out! Amazon is my favorite design in the game.
those bulging muscles are pretty sexay