I meant that the game was boring and repetitive, not that it was a disaster.
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Dragon's Crown (Vanillaware PS3/PSV) Sorceress Trailer
- Thread starter Takao
- Start date
I meant that the game was boring and repetitive, not that it was a disaster.
Delusibeta
Banned
Ah, I thought you were talking about sales.
Damn, I've clarified and explained my relevancy and reasons for posting in this thread. And yet you still think I derailed the thread?
Some battles are worth more "fighting for" (although I think 'battle' mischaracterizes the issue, as it's more about claim to equal rights and treatment). I guess Jason thought this was one "battle" worth fighting?
Instead of looking at cold & hard data, think of this case instead: You are making a media object with a representation of a social group. Legitimate representatives or the majority of the social group comes to you and tell you that they feel negatively affected by your representation of them and that they very often experience the same representation every day. They ask you to please consider their feelings and perhaps change the representation to something less harmful (or maybe even positive!) or at least remember it next time you choose to represent them. Now, you are legally allowed to continue ahead with the original harmful representation, but as an empathic human being, why wouldn't you accommodate their wish? Why is it even so absolutely necessary to include this type of representation once you've made aware of its effects on some people? Couldn't the same ambitions or goals be achieved with a different one? And so on.
To appeal to your empathy in another way regarding your doubt about the provided studies: It is simply fact that some social groups have a problem with how they are often represented in media. They feel affected by it. Why would you doubt or question the legitimacy of their feelings? You don't need to look at statistics. You don't need to verify the scientific rigidity of the studies. You just need to listen to what people have to say about their feelings and be open and introspective about it. That's all there is to it.
I don't think this game is as large a contribution to the problem, but I do think it's a part of it, however small and niche it may be. But I do wanted to stay away from this discussion because of the muddiness of it, yet people gave me sufficient reasons by misunderstanding why the design is able to be seen as a problem.
"Opinions" (or rather statements) can be logically valid or invalid, and sound or unsound. Knowledge isn't relativistic. This is more a general point than something referring to this thread.
That being said, I do listen and read all replies to me and I do take their argument into consideration. Granted, as everybody else, I'm not perfect when it comes to completely understanding what people mean, but I do try as much as possible to grant attention to other people's arguments. The quality and length of my response or counter-argument depends on how much merit the post I am replying to has.
You're part of the problem if you think people feeling affected by media representation should be reduced to a relativistic state of "all opinions are equally worthy".
Besides, aren't you the same poster who wants the rare female protagonist we sometimes get to be "more sexy"?
BluePigGanon
Member
I'm really trying to see all sides here, and I can appreciate them. But at the end of the day I feel very strongly that artists create, and shouldn't ever feel the need to explain, justify, or modify their work based on popular reaction - so while people offended by the imagery of this game have every right to their feelings, ultimately the work isn't for them so their reaction - while valid in an individual way - isn't relevant.
Furthermore, I'm not sure I buy into the notion that the Sorceress' depiction is inherently offensive. Unless we'd all say this is just as offensive, for all the same reasons:
The whole PA "what if the men had giant packages" thought experiment is unnecessary, since a few of the male heroes in the game are already exaggerated gender forms: the dwarf looks like an inverted pyramid of muscle. That is actually a much closer parallel than trying to compare breasts and male genitals, and hard to argue as "offensive to males".
Furthermore, I'm not sure I buy into the notion that the Sorceress' depiction is inherently offensive. Unless we'd all say this is just as offensive, for all the same reasons:
The whole PA "what if the men had giant packages" thought experiment is unnecessary, since a few of the male heroes in the game are already exaggerated gender forms: the dwarf looks like an inverted pyramid of muscle. That is actually a much closer parallel than trying to compare breasts and male genitals, and hard to argue as "offensive to males".
Do you extend this logic to racist depictions as well?
Yup I'm sad that every time we get a dragon's crown thread it's full of complaints about the women's art style. Maybe by the time we get to the OT in July we can just talk about the game.
not psycho
Member
If you feel negatively affected by the artwork, then you can certainly tell people. If you dislike the artwork, obviously you can say so.
But if you want to make a connection to (for example) women being harassed at a convention, or not being hired at a gaming related job, then you need to make a case for that. If you want to say something more than "I don't like it" then it is no longer enough to just mention the art, and mention problems in the gaming industry, and then wave your hands in a suggestive manner.
I already made an argument earlier that you and Schreier are contributing to mistreatment of women through the misguided nature of your complaints.
In this case, the nature of the complaints has already led to people equating large breasts with exposed genitals. You are helping to increase harassment of women with such ideas. People that harass women often do so because in their twisted minds the woman is calling for it by what they are wearing; you are giving off the idea that even having large breasts partially uncovered is the same as intentionally showing your genitals to people.
The nature of the complaints about the game has also involved derogatory terms for women's bodies. Think about whether you want people to consider women's bodies as wrong or dirty, or use phrases like "flappy tits" as insults, or equate low cut dresses and displaying genitals. Is that part of the solution, or part of the problem? Do harassers usually seem to be supportive of women being treated equally no matter what they are wearing or how they look, or do harassers generally have a darker view of women?
Then remember that this particular game is being made by someone using their own art style of their own free will, and that that style is actually too exaggerated to get the most sex appeal. Any arguments about forced or cynical sexualization do not seem to apply at all.
You say you want people to think. I suggest that Kamitani has probably already thought a great deal about his art. The people attacking that art, on the other hand, don't seem to have thought through their complaints at all. Because what I'm seeing is that the type of complaints being used are designed to increase harassment of women, create a negative environment about women's bodies, create a chilling effect for artists, and distract from scenarios where arguments about cynical sexualization would actually apply.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
A difference of perspective and perception maybe. Where Jason feels he is in the trenches, I see him picking off passenger pigeons. Where he sees the foundation, I see the edifice.
In an ideal world, I'd like to see journalists go after devs and publishers over working environments and pay gaps, rather than artists (admittedly Kamitani is the president as well). But yeah, it's not an ideal world, and I can appreciate choosing your battles by what comes your way.
I should probably qualify that I can easily see an artist or his craft being a legitimate target.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
You're presenting a scenario that simply isn't happening with this game. It would be one thing if Jason Schreier was a female, but he's not. He's trying to represent women and let them know that they should be offended by this.
Moreover, the whole idea of calling women a "social group" is kind of gross to me. No one would ever call men a "social group," because their interests vary far and wide. Just like there are men like Jason who claim to be offended by the Sorceress, there are also women who think the design is cool.
I'm really trying to see all sides here, and I can appreciate them. But at the end of the day I feel very strongly that artists create, and shouldn't ever feel the need to explain, justify, or modify their work based on popular reaction - so while people offended by the imagery of this game have every right to their feelings, ultimately the work isn't for them so their reaction - while valid in an individual way - isn't relevant.
Furthermore, I'm not sure I buy into the notion that the Sorceress' depiction is inherently offensive. Unless we'd all say this is just as offensive, for all the same reasons:
The whole PA "what if the men had giant packages" thought experiment is unnecessary, since a few of the male heroes in the game are already exaggerated gender forms: the dwarf looks like an inverted pyramid of muscle. That is actually a much closer parallel than trying to compare breasts and male genitals, and hard to argue as "offensive to males".
I'm not sure many have argued that the sorceress is *inherently* offensive. The more common argument is that in the larger cultural context it exists, it might be problematic, pandering, embarrassing, etc.
Also, what makes you think that the venus figurine is something other than an item for male titilation? We don't know what those things were for.
Tits
encephalon
Member
That's an idol that was produced in a very different cultural context. The large breasts are an exaggerated fertility motif.
Pimpbaa
Member
Lime.
KibblesBits
Member
Everyone.
BluePigGanon
Member
Yes. I hope it goes without saying that's not an endorsement of racism.
We don't really know what those idols were for - maybe a fertility motif, maybe prehistoric porn. But for the sake of argument:
1) Maybe the Succubus can be viewed as an exaggerated fertility motif too, and
2) Is there really a meaningful distinction between titillation and exaggerated celebrations of the female form? That's a tough line to draw.
This might well be the last of Vanillaware games coming over to audience outside of Japan after all the media shitstorm because of the particular art direction this game undertakes.
Delusibeta
Banned
I'm going to assume he/she/whatever has logged off for the night.
I asked it two or three times earlier when they were actively responding to all questions.... except mine. Instead of answering my question they kept saying I didn't understand his/her point.
encephalon
Member
1. No.
2. Don't refer to ancient cultures if you're not even sure of the significance of what you're referring to. "We don't know for sure" isn't a very strong argument, especially when cultures in ancient times are thought to have worshiped earth goddesses with fertility motifs. Even if they're an appreciation of the female form, it's a stretch to attempt to justify the exaggerated designs in this game with ancient art.
Really, referring to these artifacts is really bizarre.
He could just get rid of female characters.
Reduced all female chests down to washboards and them in burqas.
Karsticles
Member
If they were in burqas, it would be oppressive.
If the girls had no breasts at all, it would be "creepy Japan".
Women have to fall under a very narrow range of attributes to be considered acceptable in the West.
That's why I want to know what is and what is not acceptable to the opposition. How can you shoe horn one body type into "not acceptable to represent in media"? It's confounding how the people who take issue with sorceress don't see their argument as being sexist in itself.
"Yeah you can have girls. Girls with boobs, and girls with butts. But not girls with boobs this big! This is unacceptable in media."
BluePigGanon
Member
Not trying to pull rank or anything, but my background is actually in archaeology and cultural anthropology. So I'm pretty comfortable with what I said.
Referring to these artifacts is actually not bizarre at all.
Very, very true. How often do you hear someone arguing what "real" women look like? The implication being women who are even considered middling attractive are somehow not "real".
Maybe we could have a cup size warning next to the ESRB rating.
Riposte
Member
Not necessarily, since I'm referring to Schreier and his particular comments. You are also incorrect in your understanding of what I said, though that is understandable since I said very little and you'd have to see my posts in other threads to fully get it. I'm not referring to the general discussion of (or outrage over) x or y problems with inequality, just a tactic occurring within it.
I'm talking about the conciliatory approach he uses that implies artists (or consumers) remaining autonomous after hearing from other perspectives is the goal. That is a fine goal, one I agree with actually, but the truth is that that doesn't fall in line with the interests Jason's outlines with his (otherwise reasonable) response. If this is a "problem", then that makes for a slow, inefficient "solution" This approach is used to pacify the accusation "You want Dragon's Crown to not exist or at least be shamed to exist only within a ghetto to look down upon" (e.g. it is made by and for "immature" teens - er! Sorry! I mean people who think and act like "immature" teens. That's better!). That accusation more or less nails it judging by the (again, reasonable) second response, but it is hard to reconcile that with people who do not want to be shamed into thinking a certain way (shamed away from pleasure, autonomy). Perhaps one feels Dragon's Crown must not exist or must be shamed for the "greater good", that would certainly be a more effective strategy if Dragon's Crown is "problematic", but then that's exactly what someone should say. That would be honest. That wouldn't be hoping back and forth between the line that separates passive approaches ("I'm going to tell you why things are sexist") and aggressive approaches ("I'm going to treat you like a 14 year old") whenever it is convenient.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Which is hilarious because that's the complete opposite of equality.
For that to happen, they must only be slanted-eye Asians.
Just kidding. I do get where you're coming from and I agreed with your previous posts in this thread.
encephalon
Member
encephalon
Member
Right. I'm sure the large breasts are simply allusions to ancient art.
Karsticles
Member
Indeed! I actually wish people would spend less time harping on the Sorceress, and more time praising the Amazon. When was the last time a beautiful, bodybuilder-esque woman was placed in a game? It's pretty rare, regardless.
BluePigGanon
Member
Whether it's an homage or not is irrelevant.
djplaeskool
Member
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
People call it gross instead lol
So you're saying no one should have to explain or justify (your words) racist works, and that the reaction of people being offended by racist imagery "isn't relevant" because it's not made for them (again, your words).
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
I showed my female friend the trailers for the game and she now wants it and will play with me, I showed her all the different characters but she says she just wants to play the Sorceress
lol
lol
encephalon
Member
In what way are they relevant?
I don't agree with you on the bulge thought exercise either. Muscles aren't really as overtly sexual as breasts, if at all, for the most part. When men are drawn as well built it's done to appeal to straight males moreso than females and gay males. Following the logical trend in this thread, it would seem that there's no problem with overt sexuality whatsoever. Why have anyone wear anything at all really? Might as well just have their dicks wave around. No need to be puritans about it.
Knux-Future
Banned
It's a goddam videogame guys.
I can't help but feel like those who are "educating" or "fighting for justice" and stuff are seriously wasting everyone's time.
Look I get it that The industry we love needs to get more prorgessive and fix some shit...but I think that starts from other areas...not a niche ass Japanese game with a funky art style.
i wish people would just say..I don't like it and leave it at that instead of coming up with long and drawn out reasons that while may be in good mind but to me sound like you are just stroking your ego in hopes of seeming better for not liking it.
Like what are we even talking about anymore? This isn't even a mountain out of a molehill anymore...this is the Mount Fucking Everest.
You are fighting a fight that even if you "win' it won't do shit. Wanna make a difference..go out and do so but preaching to us about how Witch Tits is sexist and will somehow ruin everything (despite the "offended" party multiple times within this thread stated that they are in fact fine with it or in some cases LIKE it) isn't it.
it doesn't help that everyone is saying the same shit (myself included).
This game better be the next coming of baby jesus at this rate man.
I can't help but feel like those who are "educating" or "fighting for justice" and stuff are seriously wasting everyone's time.
Look I get it that The industry we love needs to get more prorgessive and fix some shit...but I think that starts from other areas...not a niche ass Japanese game with a funky art style.
i wish people would just say..I don't like it and leave it at that instead of coming up with long and drawn out reasons that while may be in good mind but to me sound like you are just stroking your ego in hopes of seeming better for not liking it.
Like what are we even talking about anymore? This isn't even a mountain out of a molehill anymore...this is the Mount Fucking Everest.
You are fighting a fight that even if you "win' it won't do shit. Wanna make a difference..go out and do so but preaching to us about how Witch Tits is sexist and will somehow ruin everything (despite the "offended" party multiple times within this thread stated that they are in fact fine with it or in some cases LIKE it) isn't it.
it doesn't help that everyone is saying the same shit (myself included).
This game better be the next coming of baby jesus at this rate man.
Boogalogist
Member
I see that the Sorceress trailer have more views than Dwarf trailer. All is well in the world. I come into the thread and....
......decided to leave.
......decided to leave.
Gokurakumaru
Banned
So Kamitani's art is a problem because women get harrassed at PAX, as though this is causation at work? Does Schreier get paid for writing this sort of libelous nonsense? This is the worst kind of backkpedal. "I take back what I said but actually I don't."
Just shut the hell up, Jason.
Mr.Monitor
Member
Found this both relevant and interesting. Lemme know if someone has already posted it.
This thread is about Dragon's Crown. Do you think Kamitani lacks knowledge of art history? Do you think all of that is coincidence?
I feel like at least some of the outrage over this game's art has to be the average gamer (and "games enthusiast writers", who are just as bad) projecting their limited cultural horizons on what they see. Quite a frightening mixture when they attempt to take on social concerns. All they can see is floppy tits, so that's all there is, apparently. The allusions aren't even commendable (and the artwork is not very good either) -- it's very basic stuff.
Pyrrhus
Member
Thanks for posting that. That analysis is damn good. I still think the primary aim is to titillate and I don't think that's a problem. But it's cool to see it has some layers of symbolism to it as well.
encephalon
Member
I edited my post to limit it to this game. I don't even think it's even a "coincidence." I don't think there's any significant relationship at all. To say that it's a huge stretch would be an understatement.
I can't find any notable similarities in the above post either. All of these comparisons are very strained.